Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement! (1 Viewer)

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The western world just cant comprehand the middle east societies.
You should rethink stereotyping people with finalities such as this. There are plenty of geopolitically astute people and war correspondents who know probably more than you about the "middle east"....there are probably oil barons in Iran that know more about the Texan oil business than either of us. To have progressive discussions about geopolitical issues it's probably best to not make assumptions about the awareness of anyone. You should also realize that you too are subjected to your own government's nationalistic propoganda whether you're aware of it or not. We all are. It's filtering out the bullshit to get to the truth that is the purpose of speculating at all. The west is full of middle eastern people....I have Ukranian friends and Israeli friends in America. We're not isolated like North Korea nor are you. I like hearing your viewpoint on Israel but I won't tell you what Israeli's don't know. That door swings both ways.
 
You should rethink stereotyping people with finalities such as this. There are plenty of geopolitically astute people and war correspondents who know probably more than you about the "middle east"....there are probably oil barons in Iran that know more about the Texan oil business than either of us. To have progressive discussions about geopolitical issues it's probably best to not make assumptions about the awareness of anyone. You should also realize that you too are subjected to your own government's nationalistic propoganda whether you're aware of it or not. We all are. It's filtering out the bullshit to get to the truth that is the purpose of speculating at all. The west is full of middle eastern people....I have Ukranian friends and Israeli friends in America. We're not isolated like North Korea nor are you. I like hearing your viewpoint on Israel but I won't tell you what Israeli's don't know. That door swings both ways.
I will courteously disagree and will explain why.
I found this article that illustrates my point very well:
Source: International Journal of Science and Society (IJSOC) https://share.google/kAhYkfoLUYnu7CXEg

From article conclusion:
"
Various events that have occurred in the Middle East such as in Syria, Libya,
Iraq, Egypt and even Afghanistan are very far from the struggle for democracy for
the welfare of its people. The ideological understanding has triggered the Middle
East's dissent in politics. Thus encouraging in conflict and civil war. Differences in
religion, political regimes and also ethnicity are the main causes of Middle Eastern
societies being in conflict. Western ideology such as democracy is an ideology that is
very contrary to the values and culture of the regime in the Middle East. Where the
people of the Middle East tend to be more comfortable with autocratic regimes or
even dictators in western expressions. Ideologies such as democracy, liberalism and
human rights are not the way out for conflict resolution in the Middle East, which
are incompatible and contrary to cultural values and political culture.
However, democracy is a political regime which is often applied in various
countries. However, democratic regimes are difficult to implement in countries in
the Middle East. The Middle East is a very dynamic region with a heterogeneous
population composition of various ethnicities, religions and cultures. The author
concludes that democracy in the Middle East is only an ideology used by some pro-
western groups for public legitimacy in gaining power. This has been proven by
what has happened in Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iraq and even Afghanistan. So that the
democratic regime is not a solution to the conflicts that have emerged in the Middle
East until now. In this case, the authors recommend that it is better if the foreign
party system does not intervene in the existing political regimes in the Middle East.
Because the people of the Middle East have their own political culture that is far
from discussing democracy, the ultimate goal is the welfare of the people. Therefore,
letting the Middle East grow independently without foreign intervention, both
ideologically and militarily, is the best solution. This has been proven by the success
of the existing political regimes in Gulf countries such as Qatar, Saudi Arabia and
the Arab Emirates which are far from being democratic. Even the Middle East has
been the center of former magnificent civilizations such as ancient Babylon to the
Persian empire and lasted through the centuries."


I can tell you for a fact - that Western democracies are in fact a different society and culture than middle eastern Arab countries that are ruled by kingdoms or familial tribes ("Chamula").
The point I was making is this - the two regions are speaking different languages, have different histories and different culture. Thats factual. What this means also is that as long as American dont speak Arabic, Hebrew and watch local middle eastern media and live in the region for few years - they will never really understand it.
I speak fluent english, watch American movies and sports, have access to US media on daily basis - and I know for a fact I dont comprhened the american society and culture. For me as example America is very capitalist, obama care which is a novelty for americans is far from standard care in Israel..(In Israel there is an extremely high level public health services for practically free - operations, hospitalizations for days - are all subsidied by the country and paid via a collective symbolic fee (around 30$ payment a month).
The way people grasp money concept, freedom of speech, labour, social security etc etc..
How much do Western societies are familiar with the intricacies of Middle eastern countries?
The fact is - this is mostly just projection of western values and western goggles being placed upon very very different cultures. That was my point and I hope this makes it bit clearer..
 
I will courteously disagree and will explain why.
I found this article that illustrates my point very well:
Source: International Journal of Science and Society (IJSOC) https://share.google/kAhYkfoLUYnu7CXEg

From article conclusion:
"
Various events that have occurred in the Middle East such as in Syria, Libya,
Iraq, Egypt and even Afghanistan are very far from the struggle for democracy for
the welfare of its people. The ideological understanding has triggered the Middle
East's dissent in politics. Thus encouraging in conflict and civil war. Differences in
religion, political regimes and also ethnicity are the main causes of Middle Eastern
societies being in conflict. Western ideology such as democracy is an ideology that is
very contrary to the values and culture of the regime in the Middle East. Where the
people of the Middle East tend to be more comfortable with autocratic regimes or
even dictators in western expressions. Ideologies such as democracy, liberalism and
human rights are not the way out for conflict resolution in the Middle East, which
are incompatible and contrary to cultural values and political culture.
However, democracy is a political regime which is often applied in various
countries. However, democratic regimes are difficult to implement in countries in
the Middle East. The Middle East is a very dynamic region with a heterogeneous
population composition of various ethnicities, religions and cultures. The author
concludes that democracy in the Middle East is only an ideology used by some pro-
western groups for public legitimacy in gaining power. This has been proven by
what has happened in Egypt, Syria, Libya, Iraq and even Afghanistan. So that the
democratic regime is not a solution to the conflicts that have emerged in the Middle
East until now. In this case, the authors recommend that it is better if the foreign
party system does not intervene in the existing political regimes in the Middle East.
Because the people of the Middle East have their own political culture that is far
from discussing democracy, the ultimate goal is the welfare of the people. Therefore,
letting the Middle East grow independently without foreign intervention, both
ideologically and militarily, is the best solution. This has been proven by the success
of the existing political regimes in Gulf countries such as Qatar, Saudi Arabia and
the Arab Emirates which are far from being democratic. Even the Middle East has
been the center of former magnificent civilizations such as ancient Babylon to the
Persian empire and lasted through the centuries."


I can tell you for a fact - that Western democracies are in fact a different society and culture than middle eastern Arab countries that are ruled by kingdoms or familial tribes ("Chamula").
The point I was making is this - the two regions are speaking different languages, have different histories and different culture. Thats factual. What this means also is that as long as American dont speak Arabic, Hebrew and watch local middle eastern media and live in the region for few years - they will never really understand it.
I speak fluent english, watch American movies and sports, have access to US media on daily basis - and I know for a fact I dont comprhened the american society and culture. For me as example America is very capitalist, obama care which is a novelty for americans is far from standard care in Israel..(In Israel there is an extremely high level public health services for practically free - operations, hospitalizations for days - are all subsidied by the country and paid via a collective symbolic fee (around 30$ payment a month).
The way people grasp money concept, freedom of speech, labour, social security etc etc..
How much do Western societies are familiar with the intricacies of Middle eastern countries?
The fact is - this is mostly just projection of western values and western goggles being placed upon very very different cultures. That was my point and I hope this makes it bit clearer..
Most western democracies (very similar cultures as the US) have universal healthcare for about the same price as Israel.

That the US doesn't is simply a failure of our government.

I don't think this supports the case you're trying to make.
 
In this case, the authors recommend that it is better if the foreign
party system does not intervene in the existing political regimes in the Middle East.
Because the people of the Middle East have their own political culture that is far
from discussing democracy, the ultimate goal is the welfare of the people. Therefore,
letting the Middle East grow independently without foreign intervention, both
ideologically and militarily, is the best solution
.

So do you agree that the US should cut off all economic, military, and other aid to Israel? Sounds like that's what you are advocating for here by posting this.

barfo
 
Most western democracies (very similar cultures as the US) have universal healthcare for about the same price as Israel.

That the US doesn't is simply a failure of our government.

I don't think this supports the case you're trying to make.

So do you agree that the US should cut off all economic, military, and other aid to Israel? Sounds like that's what you are advocating for here by posting this.

barfo


Both your replies actually show me that I said A and you two heard B and C (meaning comprhension / explanation issues).
Read the article I linked. I do think that will clarify my point and not the examples of my own thinking that seemed to only mess things around and lead you to focus on things I did not inted to at all.
 
Both your replies actually show me that I said A and you two heard B and C (meaning comprhension / explanation issues).
Read the article I linked. I do think that will clarify my point and not the examples of my own thinking that seemed to only mess things around and lead you to focus on things I did not inted to at all.

I was responding to something you quoted from the article, and asking whether you agreed with it. Do you?

barfo
 
I was responding to something you quoted from the article, and asking whether you agreed with it. Do you?

barfo
I think it illustrates my point and issue of gaps between regions and societies.
The personal view of the author who interperts it to a conclusion of - lets not be involved at all? Sure, its feasible and undertandable IMO.
My personal take on the matter - if you want to be involved make sure you are aware of the gap and also competent in realising the meaning of these gaps as illustrated jn the article.
Trump does have different take (real estate) look for the middle east - in reality, and paradoxically - it seems to currently better suit the middle east conflict than previous western leaders working under premises of 'democracy, free will, free speech etc'..
That was my point...
 
I think it illustrates my point and issue of gaps between regions and societies.
The personal view of the author who interperts it to a conclusion of - lets not be involved at all? Sure, its feasible and undertandable IMO.
My personal take on the matter - if you want to be involved make sure you are aware of the gap and also competent in realising the meaning of these gaps as illustrated jn the article.
Trump does have different take (real estate) look for the middle east - in reality, and paradoxically - it seems to currently better suit the middle east conflict than previous western leaders working under premises of 'democracy, free will, free speech etc'..
That was my point...
Ok. I'll just point out that you missed an opportunity to say "mind the gap" there.

As for the real estate viewpoint, sure, "we are going to take your land by whatever means necessary" does work out sometimes, at least for those doing the taking.

I'd say the main reason Trump is the right man for the hour in the middle east is he's every bit as corrupt and criminal as Bibi and various other leaders in the region.

barfo
 
I think it illustrates my point and issue of gaps between regions and societies.
The personal view of the author who interperts it to a conclusion of - lets not be involved at all? Sure, its feasible and undertandable IMO.
My personal take on the matter - if you want to be involved make sure you are aware of the gap and also competent in realising the meaning of these gaps as illustrated jn the article.
Trump does have different take (real estate) look for the middle east - in reality, and paradoxically - it seems to currently better suit the middle east conflict than previous western leaders working under premises of 'democracy, free will, free speech etc'..
That was my point...
I don't think giving Israel everything they want after allowing them to pummel a defenseless country for 2 years is at all better.

I think if Kamala had won there would have been a much better outcome for Palestinians.
 
I don't think giving Israel everything they want after allowing them to pummel a defenseless country for 2 years is at all better.

I think if Kamala had won there would have been a much better outcome for Palestinians.
Interesting take.
A. Everything Israel want is: 1. All hostages back - dead and alive alike.
2. Hamas not govern Gaza and demilitirized.
3. End of conflict via accepting Israel right to exist. (WHILE ISRAEL ACCEPT Gaza as a Palestinian state for palestinians people, west bank to be resolved similliarly once borders can be agreed - obviously Haifa or Tel aviv will never be Palestine and the Palestinan people need to accept it, just as Israelis must accept Gaza and Ramahalla are to be Palestine).

And give Palestinians:
1. Indpendent state in Gaza.
2. Financial support.
3. End of 'refugees' eternal status via UN.
4. Functioning governing entity that can take care for people daily lives and wellbeing.
 
Interesting take.
A. Everything Israel want is: 1. All hostages back - dead and alive alike.
2. Hamas not govern Gaza and demilitirized.
3. End of conflict via accepting Israel right to exist. (WHILE ISRAEL ACCEPT Gaza as a Palestinian state for palestinians people, west bank to be resolved similliarly once borders can be agreed - obviously Haifa or Tel aviv will never be Palestine and the Palestinan people need to accept it, just as Israelis must accept Gaza and Ramahalla are to be Palestine).

And give Palestinians:
1. Indpendent state in Gaza.
2. Financial support.
3. End of 'refugees' eternal status via UN.
4. Functioning governing entity that can take care for people daily lives and wellbeing.
I really should have said "what Netanyahu wants", not Israel. Because these are not the same thing.

But as of July of 2024 Israel does not support a two state solution. https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...alestinian-statehood-days-before-pms-us-trip/

If Netanyahu wanted a functioning governing entity that would actually care for the people of Palestine why did he support Hamas for so long?

Netanyahu should be removed from power. Most of Israel wants this. Oct 7th was his fault.

On October 6, the day before the two-year anniversary of Hamas's deadly attacks on Israel, the Israel Democracy Institute released the results of a survey on attitudes about the war.

Of the 1,000 people interviewed, the overwhelming majority of Jewish Israelis (66 per cent) wanted the war to end.

Forty-five per cent wanted Mr Netanyahu to take responsibility for October 7 and resign immediately. Another 19 per cent said he should fall on his sword, once the war was over.

Simply stopping hostilities is huge. Getting the hostages back is also huge.

But I think this would have happened sooner if Dems had won, and Israel would be less happy with Netanyahu's decisions.
 
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