Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

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2Fluffy4U said:
You are entitled to these views.
I am only sorry as I think Israel lost the ability to convey reality.
We live in a post-post modernistic times - where even facts no longer hold weight.
All is needed is media control and narrative building.
The facts are - Hamas wants Israel destroyed and will keep pushing towards this goal.
Israel is/was at war. It destroyed a lot of (reports of around 70% of buildings in Gaza - that is immense force). However - only around 3% of the population is killed. How can this disrepancy be explained?
Fact of the matter that is how you put pressure and lead to this deal. By hurting them until they surrender (while minimizing casuallties).
But.. social media will just chant over and over about genocide, starvation, turture etc.. and the masses swallow it in whole.
Facts no longer matter. Just intrests and powers to control narratives..

What do you think should have been done on oct 6th you referred to as good will?
Click to expand...
I believe a surgical military strike was reasonable. Arresting and punishing only the people who were involved. Especially once it became clear that the leaders weren't even in the country.

Destroying 70% of all Gaza buildings proves nothing everyone didn't already know. Israel is more powerful than Gaza. Great.

Destroying 70% of a country and killing 70,000 Palestinians because of a terrorist act committed by 3,000 terrorists (of which the leaders weren't even in Gaza and didn't care how many Palestinians you killed), was exactly the response they wanted.

They likely extracted a fortune from Qatar (and the US) and became vastly more powerful and wealthy because of Israeli action.

All of that damage and destruction, as well as the cruelty (Israeli officials publicly advocating for the right of soldiers to rape Palestinians, etc) simply strengthened the bargaining position of Hamas leadership and hurt Israel more than Hamas or all of Gaza ever could have.

Israel could have begun offering the children of Palestine free care. Food. Education.

Same as the US should have done post 9/11. Go target the people funding the spread of hate and those who commit terrorist acts. Those who kill people or knowingly enable them to do so. Not innocent women and children.

Help the people and the people will help you, eventually.
 
riverman said:
I believe we will not ever see a WW3. I believe the world will tire of war in the future. The next war will be an economic war, not a military one...currently we have several still ongoing but I believe the old school militants are going to fall from favor in the future..
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I hoping that this happens and I do think its played a role in the Arab States signing on to this recent peace attempt.
 
Phatguysrule said:
I believe a surgical military strike was reasonable. Arresting and punishing only the people who were involved. Especially once it became clear that the leaders weren't even in the country.

Destroying 70% of all Gaza buildings proves nothing everyone didn't already know. Israel is more powerful than Gaza. Great.

Destroying 70% of a country and killing 70,000 Palestinians because of a terrorist act committed by 3,000 terrorists (of which the leaders weren't even in Gaza and didn't care how many Palestinians you killed), was exactly the response they wanted.

They likely extracted a fortune from Qatar (and the US) and became vastly more powerful and wealthy because of Israeli action.

All of that damage and destruction, as well as the cruelty (Israeli officials publicly advocating for the right of soldiers to rape Palestinians, etc) simply strengthened the bargaining position of Hamas leadership and hurt Israel more than Hamas or all of Gaza ever could have.

Israel could have begun offering the children of Palestine free care. Food. Education.

Same as the US should have done post 9/11. Go target the people funding the spread of hate and those who commit terrorist acts. Those who kill people or knowingly enable them to do so. Not innocent women and children.

Help the people and the people will help you, eventually.
Click to expand...

A. In your reply you chant things that are plain lies and propaganda fed to you. That is quite both sad and infuriating to me. As I usually do - please provide evidence for claiming officials say it is okay to rape. Source. (And I will easly debunk it).
B. Your reply also emphasizes in my view the blindspots of multi cultures.
You can't, just can't, act via a certain culture views and expect for it to apply on other culture.
The western world just cant comprehand the middle east societies. It was prooven before (since Carter, to Obama, to Biden, to Trump which remains to be seen but I expect his efforts are actually in the realm of middle eastern playground as he sees things as deals and money.)

This is actually a good example now that I think about it.
Trump does not represent the Americans who value honesty, justice, humility, caring for all. He repreasent personal intrests, capitalism galore, narssisicm and so forth.
Now imagine the middle east is just a football field when all teams have Trum leaders. That is it.
How are you going to win? How are you going the make your team survive the league?

Also,
I read your comment and I do not mean for it to sound negative or personal - beacuse you are awesome IMO and really like your comments (when they portray your views and not unbased info), and I will probably sound condecending - but it is like reading a teen answer in highschool to a question in civil rights class.
This Naivity of saying - "Arresting and punishing only the people who were involved. Especially once it became clear that the leaders weren't even in the country." Just makes me wanna invite you to Israel to actually learn how things really are.
 
2Fluffy4U said:
A. In your reply you chant things that are plain lies and propaganda fed to you. That is quite both sad and infuriating to me. As I usually do - please provide evidence for claiming officials say it is okay to rape. Source. (And I will easly debunk it).
Click to expand...
Lawmaker Hanoch Milwidsky was asked as he defended the alleged abuse whether it was legitimate, "to insert a stick into a person's rectum?"

"Yes!" he shouted in reply to his fellow parliamentarian. "If he is a Nukhba [Hamas militant], everything is legitimate to do! Everything!"

I watched the video of this exchange. Not good.
B. Your reply also emphasizes in my view the blindspots of multi cultures.
You can't, just can't, act via a certain culture views and expect for it to apply on other culture.
The western world just cant comprehand the middle east societies. It was prooven before (since Carter, to Obama, to Biden, to Trump which remains to be seen but I expect his efforts are actually in the realm of middle eastern playground as he sees things as deals and money.)

This is actually a good example now that I think about it.
Trump does not represent the Americans who value honesty, justice, humility, caring for all. He repreasent personal intrests, capitalism galore, narssisicm and so forth.
Now imagine the middle east is just a football field when all teams have Trum leaders. That is it.
How are you going to win? How are you going the make your team survive the league?
Click to expand...
Education. Over decades, as I already explained. Human nature is human nature.
Also,
I read your comment and I do not mean for it to sound negative or personal - beacuse you are awesome IMO and really like your comments (when they portray your views and not unbased info), and I will probably sound condecending - but it is like reading a teen answer in highschool to a question in civil rights class.
This Naivity of saying - "Arresting and punishing only the people who were involved. Especially once it became clear that the leaders weren't even in the country." Just makes me wanna invite you to Israel to actually learn how things really are.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the kind words. However, nothing specific about Israel could change my opinion that killing 70k people and destroying 70% of buildings and infrastructure in a country is a reasonable response to a terrorist attack committed by 3000 extremists.

I would support attacking the actual leadership who had fled to (I believe) Qatar... In fact, if you actually wanted to get the hostages back as soon as possible that's what you would have done.
 
2Fluffy4U said:
You are entitled to these views.
I am only sorry as I think Israel lost the ability to convey reality.
We live in a post-post modernistic times - where even facts no longer hold weight.
All is needed is media control and narrative building.
The facts are - Hamas wants Israel destroyed and will keep pushing towards this goal.
Israel is/was at war. It destroyed a lot of (reports of around 70% of buildings in Gaza - that is immense force). However - only around 3% of the population is killed. How can this disrepancy be explained?
Fact of the matter that is how you put pressure and lead to this deal. By hurting them until they surrender (while minimizing casuallties).
But.. social media will just chant over and over about genocide, starvation, turture etc.. and the masses swallow it in whole.
Facts no longer matter. Just intrests and powers to control narratives..

What do you think should have been done on oct 6th you referred to as good will?
Click to expand...

You're delusional. You think it has anything to do with narrative when the entire U.S. apparatus is bought and paid for by Israel - yet somehow everyone hates Israel. It couldn't be the babies blown apart everyday on our live feeds. You are the perfect example of a delusion-impaired person brainwashed by their government.

And many of the people protesting against the genocidal Israeli regime are Jews themselves. Because Judiasm and Zionism has no compatibility.

But go on about narratives... Maybe don't hold Jewish supremacy over the heads of everyone and then claim victim.
 
I don't know why a legitimate nation would feel the need to use Charlie Kirk's image with the words "Charlie loved Israel" and pay to advertise that all over social media.

It's hilarious and gives credence to the idea that they assassinated him before he could fully come out against them like his text 24 hours before said.
 
Sheldon Shape said:
In a nutshell from an Israeli-American anthropologist...

Click to expand...

I am afraid to respond to this nonesense. It will only lead you to more extreme delsuional mindset.
In a nutshell- I dont play the who was here before. I can. But I wont.
The end of the day - Palestinians want from the river to the sea correct?
Can you tell me what do they want?
Is Tel Aviv Palestine? Is Haifa Palestine? What land do Palestinian want?
Israel was agreeing to Palestine state in 1948 borders. Then it agreed to 1967 borders.. each time Palestinian refuse - so tell me - what land is sufficient for the Palestinians?

Btw - the more I post here the more people entrench in far extreme views - so I might as well stop as I am only doing damage.. instead of mellowing down the debate just leads to far far gaps..

Edit: hell no. I am no victim at all nor am I supreme. On the contrary.. I stand behind my actions and responsibilities. I don't blame others. I can say I disagree, I can say I am sorry for, or infurirated with.. but I am not a victim here. I am accountable and will do whatever I can to make sure my life and those I love are safe and worthy.
 
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In 2025 America has had 335 mass shootings and sent the military into 3 blue state cities....in the 1960s the police were using dogs and water cannons against black people in the south protesting....we are no strangers to civil unrest or gun violence. I have Israeli friends and American Jewish friends and so far, non of them seem brain washed by the propoganda or media spin of partisan politics. War should end but if it is waged it should be a crime against humanity to target children, hospitals, schools and civilian targets....let your armies fight in a battle ground away from collateral damage. Peace is something you practice, not wait to achieve
 
2Fluffy4U said:
I am afraid to respond to this nonesense. It will only lead you to more extreme delsuional mindset.
In a nutshell- I dont play the who was here before. I can. But I wont.
The end of the day - Palestinians want from the river to the sea correct?
Can you tell me what do they want?
Is Tel Aviv Palestine? Is Haifa Palestine? What land do Palestinian want?
Israel was agreeing to Palestine state in 1948 borders. Then it agreed to 1967 borders.. each time Palestinian refuse - so tell me - what land is sufficient for the Palestinians?
Click to expand...
Many Palestinians want a two state solution, not elimination of the Jewish state. I think you've sensationalized your stereotype of Palestinian people yet given your people a free pass for crossing lines of civility. Doubling down on blood feuds is going to keep you in the problem endlessly and not going to bring peace to the region. I'm not informed by propoganda...my job under Nixon for the military was to broadcast and monitor propoganda so I know the difference between an AP news feed and an editorial from the talking heads. Sure we all get fooled occasionally but generally foreign correspondents on the ground know exactly what fuels civil unrest around the world whether Ukraine or Gaza or Afghanistan...reporters are often the heroes in times of war.
 
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riverman said:
In 2025 America has had 335 mass shootings and sent the military into 3 blue state cities....in the 1960s the police were using dogs and water cannons against black people in the south protesting....we are no strangers to civil unrest or gun violence. I have Israeli friends and American Jewish friends and so far, non of them seem brain washed by the propoganda or media spin of partisan politics. War should end but if it is waged it should be a crime against humanity to target children, hospitals, schools and civilian targets....let your armies fight in a battle ground away from collateral damage. Peace is something you practice, not wait to achieve
Click to expand...

"Target children, hospitals, schools and civilian targets".
Thats where we will disagree.
Israel and IDF do not do that. We target terrorists. If their HQ is in a hospital is that a free pass? How do explain 70% wreckage of building but only 1.5-2% civillian killed? Yes. It is called collteral damage. Side effect of wars.
Hamas could and should have surrendered on oct 8th.
They choose not to. Because they know the world supports them when Qatar backed media pushes their false Genocide, starvation narratives..
Btw - Israel is not without fault - IDF soldiers will make mistakes, (you have at least 20 IDF soldiers dead from firearm accidents), IDF soldiers can act wrongfully to extent - but the system works. Those who do foul things pay and held accountable for it. And they are a minority within.
 
2Fluffy4U said:
"Target children, hospitals, schools and civilian targets".
Thats where we will disagree.
Israel and IDF do not do that. We target terrorists. If their HQ is in a hospital is that a free pass? How do explain 70% wreckage of building but only 1.5-2% civillian killed? Yes. It is called collteral damage. Side effect of wars.
Hamas could and should have surrendered on oct 8th.
They choose not to. Because they know the world supports them when Qatar backed media pushes their false Genocide, starvation narratives..
Btw - Israel is not without fault - IDF soldiers will make mistakes, (you have at least 20 IDF soldiers dead from firearm accidents), IDF soldiers can act wrongfully to extent - but the system works. Those who do foul things pay and held accountable for it. And they are a minority within.
Click to expand...

Right. And there wasn't a protest for IDF soldiers to have the right to rape? It's on video. The whole world has seen it. Additionally, there are videos of IDF soldiers raping Palestinian captives.
 
Sheldon Shape said:
Right. And there wasn't a protest for IDF soldiers to have the right to rape? It's on video. The whole world has seen it. Additionally, there are videos of IDF soldiers raping Palestinian captives.
Click to expand...
1.Source???
2. Please let me know what lands should satisfy the Palestinians. Perhaps we realise we will agree on some things.
 
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2Fluffy4U said:
1.Source???
2. Please let me know what lands should satisfy the Palestinians. Perhaps we realise we will agree on some things.
Click to expand...
My understanding is that settlers expanded their territory from the Israeli side, not the Palestinian side. Also my understanding is that water rights have not been shared equally in the region. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you folks supposed to stop developing in the West Bank when Carter was brokering peace?
 
riverman said:
My understanding is that settlers expanded their territory from the Israeli side, not the Palestinian side. Also my understanding is that water rights have not been shared equally in the region. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't you folks supposed to stop developing in the West Bank when Carter was brokering peace?
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A. What is the Israeli side? What is the Palestinian side?
B. Oslow accords set in maps areas under different juristictions. In case in which jewish people (settlers) set up camp and began building permenant housing - the supreme court law ordered for it to be dismantled and police forces forcfully took it down. Again and again.
C. I am not familiar with any water issues. I googled and came up with this doc for review: https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/repor...etween-Israel-and-Palestinians-Main-Facts.pdf
In general Abu Mazen (leader of PlO) speaks of a lot of issues that are in hand and important for and to his people. Cant recall water issue. BTW Israel supplies electricity to the PlO authoroty for decades now - and the PLO had huge debt that is just not being paid. Meaning free electricity for a really long time. I do know it bother many israelis - we support autonoumous govrening for Palestinians in the west bank, following oslow accords. Why not build, educate, become productive and an asset to the world? Instead they just keep nurturing a victimhood 'enternal refugee' narrative passed from father to son..
Israel (Rabin days) really wanted Palestine to prosper and succeed. Rabin counted on it. We had a huge movement in 95 called 'dor shalem doresh shalom' - majority of Israeliy believed the current generation wants eternal peace and willing to conceed a lot for it. The problem was the subsequent intifadas where you had to learn by blood over and over again that the palestinian people cant sign a peace deal. Because they want other things. But peace with Israel and two state solution isn't it. (Btw they are willing to two states as long as they can be citizens in both.. )..
 


Jerusalem was full of Christians for thousands of years under Muslim rule. It took only 75 years of Zionism to eradicate most Christians from there.
 
Not to denigrate the current agreement, but considering how long the Middle East has been a clusterfuck/tinderbox, and looking at how many cease fires have shit the bed, it sure seems like these folks are taking a victory lapway too effing early........and holy cow is the finger pointing going to be interesting if and when this thing blows up again.
 
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UncleCliffy'sDaddy said:
Not to denigrate the current agreement, but considering how long the Middle East has been a clusterfuck/tinderbox, and looking at how many cease fires have shit the bed, it sure seems like these folks are taking a victory lay way too effing early........and holy cow is the finger pointing going to be interesting if and when this thing blows up again.
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Trump's photo op there and involvement to me reeks of a real estate grab...hope I'm wrong about that but it would explain the massive demolition job.
 
Sheldon Shape said:
Why does it matter when you're going to just call it a false narrative like everything else? A simple Google search will turn up dozens of sources and video.

Here's just one: https://youtube.com/shorts/OVBRQLeLNLo?si=pMl-GaexmnMC-m9B
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You did not provide any evidence for any claim stated - nothing.

I can provide you evidence for everything Hamas is and was doing:
Beheading? Burning? Raping? Smiling while at it? Happy? Torturing? Shooting dogs? Shooting kids? Throwing granades at civilians? Spraying automatic weapons across crowds? Firing RPG at houses and cars? Cutting organs?
All can be actually seen here below.
Viewers discretion advised.

Here are my sources:
https://
saturday-october-seven.com

I wish you were able to believe me and not needing to see this.
But I cant think of anything else that can be done to wake you up from your blindspots.
If you do watch it let me know - what would you do if it happend to you and loved ones. And be honest.
 
2Fluffy4U said:
You did not provide any evidence for any claim stated - nothing.

I can provide you evidence for everything Hamas is and was doing:
Beheading? Burning? Raping? Smiling while at it? Happy? Torturing? Shooting dogs? Shooting kids? Throwing granades at civilians? Spraying automatic weapons across crowds? Firing RPG at houses and cars? Cutting organs?
All can be actually seen here below.
Viewers discretion advised.

Here are my sources:
https://
saturday-october-seven.com

I wish you were able to believe me and not needing to see this.
But I cant think of anything else that can be done to wake you up from your blindspots.
If you do watch it let me know - what would you do if it happend to you and loved ones. And be honest.
Click to expand...
Atrocities in war need to be prosecuted as crimes against humanity, every soldier or general or politician that fueled any torture, rape or murder upon innocent people. Try them in the Hague...but to use this as fuel for escalating hate, revenge and blood lust is not going to bring peace. The question is, do you want peace now and can you respect a diverse population? I'd ask the same question to every militant Palestinian if there were one on our little basketball forum here. If you hate Hamas you can do that without killing their neighbors or families. We took out Bin Laden without blowing up Pakistan and yes, I know we fucked up in Iraq and Syria...different administration , different method. IDF took out Hamas top leaders in quick fashion but didn't stop there. That should have ended the war. Now with the hostages released, there is no excuse to not cease hostilities. I truly wish for you to live in a peaceful homeland
 
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2Fluffy4U said:
You did not provide any evidence for any claim stated - nothing.
Click to expand...

This is why it's pointless to talk because this is documented on video with dozens of news agencies reporting on it and it still isn't enough for you, obviously.

I can provide you evidence for everything Hamas is and was doing:
Beheading? Burning? Raping? Smiling while at it? Happy? Torturing? Shooting dogs? Shooting kids? Throwing granades at civilians? Spraying automatic weapons across crowds? Firing RPG at houses and cars? Cutting organs?
All can be actually seen here below.
Viewers discretion advised.

Here are my sources:
https://
saturday-october-seven.com

I wish you were able to believe me and not needing to see this.
But I cant think of anything else that can be done to wake you up from your blindspots.
If you do watch it let me know - what would you do if it happend to you and loved ones. And be honest.
Click to expand...

Hamas isn't great, so the Israeli leadership probably shouldn't have been giving millions of dollars to them every month and propped them up, right?
 
2Fluffy4U said:
I am afraid to respond to this nonesense. It will only lead you to more extreme delsuional mindset.
In a nutshell- I dont play the who was here before. I can. But I wont.
The end of the day - Palestinians want from the river to the sea correct?
Can you tell me what do they want?
Is Tel Aviv Palestine? Is Haifa Palestine? What land do Palestinian want?
Israel was agreeing to Palestine state in 1948 borders. Then it agreed to 1967 borders.. each time Palestinian refuse - so tell me - what land is sufficient for the Palestinians?

Btw - the more I post here the more people entrench in far extreme views - so I might as well stop as I am only doing damage.. instead of mellowing down the debate just leads to far far gaps..

Edit: hell no. I am no victim at all nor am I supreme. On the contrary.. I stand behind my actions and responsibilities. I don't blame others. I can say I disagree, I can say I am sorry for, or infurirated with.. but I am not a victim here. I am accountable and will do whatever I can to make sure my life and those I love are safe and worthy.
Click to expand...
I don't believe you are causing anyone to have a more extreme view. I appreciate your perspective.
 
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