Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

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Phatguysrule said:
Anybody who thought "defund the police" meant people wanted the police to be abolished was a fucking idiot.

The whole point was to cut funding for things that turn police into military occupiers (tanks, assault gear, etc).

Police should be peace officers, who are there to serve and protect.

Rather than funding them to be cowboys who run around fucking the sheep and lying for each other to keep the game going.
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Your answer here and the way you felt explaining this is probably the exact feeling I get when I try to explain my side of things..

There are people who side with something and are 'fucking idiot'.. (mostly extreme people on both sides of an argument).
But once you get into the complexities and see no side as 'pure' right or wrong - than dialogue and improvment can happen..
 
Phatguysrule said:
Abundance would lead to global peace.
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This is a whole different ball game and topic. And I like it.

How will abundance lead to global peace?

Logically speaking, this claim if I understand it correctly - would mean that i lf all nations/countries/human societies would live in an abundant planet in which there is no famine or scarcity then all people would live together in Harmony and peacfully. Globally.
Is that the notion? And if so - why do you reckon so?
 
2Fluffy4U said:
This is a whole different ball game and topic. And I like it.

How will abundance lead to global peace?

Logically speaking, this claim if I understand it correctly - would mean that i lf all nations/countries/human societies would live in an abundant planet in which there is no famine or scarcity then all people would live together in Harmony and peacfully. Globally.
Is that the notion? And if so - why do you reckon so?
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Scarcity creates desperation. Desperate people make desperate decisions.

This is why Europe and Scandinavian and Nordic countries have lower violent crime and murder rates than the US and Russia.

Similar theoretical access to necessities except US and Russia have policies which artificially restrict that access to their populations.

This is (one reason) why you see war so much in resource starved places.
 
I would disagree to the logic behind the first statement of:
Scarcity creates desperation.

I argue that is not a true statement.

There are many human societies living today in scarcity and that are not desperate at all.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, the ratio of depression and suicide among the nordic counties is of the highest in the world.
So perhaps less violent - but much more depressed.

I would argue that not abundance or lack of leads to war.
I would argue that social constructs (i.e cultures, religions, intellect, tribal hirearchies etc) - that have yet to adapt to a new world are the reason for wars and conflict.
 
2Fluffy4U said:
BTW, if I am not mistaken, the ratio of depression and suicide among the nordic counties is of the highest in the world.
So perhaps less violent - but much more depressed.
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15390.jpeg
 
Scarcity combined with inequality. Communities where everyone is poor and works together have solidarity. But people who are poor and see rich flaunting and saying let them eat cake, different story.
 
2Fluffy4U said:
I would disagree to the logic behind the first statement of:
Scarcity creates desperation.

I argue that is not a true statement.

There are many human societies living today in scarcity and that are not desperate at all.

BTW, if I am not mistaken, the ratio of depression and suicide among the nordic counties is of the highest in the world.
So perhaps less violent - but much more depressed.

I would argue that not abundance or lack of leads to war.
I would argue that social constructs (i.e cultures, religions, intellect, tribal hirearchies etc) - that have yet to adapt to a new world are the reason for wars and conflict.
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Scarcity (combined with inequality, thanks @crandc) (which is basically the gini coefficient I've mentioned in the past) leads to cultural, religious, intellectual, tribal, and hierarchical conflict.

It all comes from greed and jealousy. Societies with abundance find the wealthy creating artificial scarcity. See California water rights, US limits on medical students, the foolishness with diamonds, etc.
 
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Hamas keeps trying to relinquish power but Israel and U.S. keeps saying no.

Huh. Wonder why that is?

 
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/11/magazine/benjamin-netanyahu-gaza-war.html

Detailed analysis by New York Times, who can do actual journalism when they want to, describes how plan for truce and hostage release was read to go six months into war. But far right elements of Netanyahu coalition opposed it. Without their backing, new elections would be called and he would likely lose. He had a choice, end the war or stay in power. He chose to stay in power.
 
crandc said:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/11/magazine/benjamin-netanyahu-gaza-war.html

Detailed analysis by New York Times, who can do actual journalism when they want to, describes how plan for truce and hostage release was read to go six months into war. But far right elements of Netanyahu coalition opposed it. Without their backing, new elections would be called and he would likely lose. He had a choice, end the war or stay in power. He chose to stay in power.
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1. The article is not accesible. Can you copy text from it and sources so I can review it as well?

2. Without reading the article - the idea that Bibi has his own personal agenda is not new, nor not valid. Probably is the case - to an extent. How much? That is the real debate here.

3. IMO - If Israel agreed to stop the war 6 months in the reality would look like this:
A. Hizballa and Naserrallha still in Power and capable of storming northern Israel by foot.
B. Sinwar alive and leading Hamas organizatiln as a powerful 'liberator' - giving Hamas momentum to go at it again and again once recovered.
C. Iran continues to fund terror proxies in the area and threaten Israel with actual rockets capability attack that would devestate Israel entirly (barrage of 1000 rockets, not 50-100).

So all in all, regardless to Bibi's personal Agenda (which I personally can't stand him and always vote against him),
I am very pleased with the fact the war did not end at the 6 months mark.

However - you know what could have happened that would most likely have lead to stopping the war immidiately and despite Bibi's personal intrests?
Thats right, the complete unconditional release of all hostages, dead and alive..
(USA and Biden would have easily shut down Israel if that was the developing reality)..
 
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Israel strikes Syrian city, vows to protect Druze from government forces


  • Israel carries out strikes in Syria, says it aims to protect Druze
  • Druze leader accuses Syrian government of breaking ceasefire agreement
  • Defence minister says ceasefire is in place, military police deploying in Sweida to 'control military behaviour'
  • Druze fighters urged to resist Syrian troops entering Sweida
SWEIDA, July 15 (Reuters) - Israel carried out strikes against Syrian government forces in southwestern Syria for a second day on Tuesday, vowing to keep the area demilitarized and to protect the Druze minority as deadly clashes continued in the region at the Israeli frontier.

A Reuters reporter heard at least four strikes as drones could be heard over the predominantly Druze city of Sweida and saw a damaged tank being towed away. Bursts of gunfire were heard and three bodies were seen on the ground. Dozens of people have been killed in fighting in the region since Sunday.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middl...nfront-incoming-government-troops-2025-07-15/
 
Israeli settlers kill American in West Bank and attack CNN journalists.

These people do not share our values.

 
ISRAELI RIGHTS GROUPS CLAIM GAZA GENOCIDE

In a First, Leading Israeli Rights Groups Accuse Israel of Gaza Genocide
Israel says it is fighting against Hamas, not Palestinians as a group. But two of Israel’s best-known rights groups — long critical of Israeli policy — now say they disagree.

Two of the best-known Israeli human rights groups said Monday that Israel was committing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza, adding fuel to a passionately fought international debate over whether the death and destruction there have crossed a moral red line.

The two groups were B’Tselem, a rights monitor that documents the effects of Israeli policies on Palestinians, and Physicians for Human Rights — Israel. Their announcement was the first time major Israeli rights groups have publicly concluded that the Gaza war is a genocide, an assessment previously reached by someorganizations like Amnesty International.

In a report titled “Our Genocide,” B’Tselem cited the devastating effects of Israel’s war on ordinary Palestinians to support their claim: the killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians in Gaza; the razing of huge areas of Palestinian cities; the forced displacement of nearly all of Gaza’s two million people; the restriction of food and other vital supplies.

All together, the Israeli campaign has amounted to “coordinated action to intentionally destroy Palestinian society in the Gaza Strip,” the organization wrote. “In other words: Israel is committing genocide against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.”
 
Doctors and nurses are fainting from hunger. In most famines people try to get out. No one can get out and food isn't going in. I am beyond words for shameful.
 
https://david-collier.com/the-truth-behind-the-viral-gaza-famine-photo/

Please. Bringing Betselem and Physician for human rights as sources for something is like saying Trump never lies.
May I remind you - there are billions of people aroung the world who are pro-palestine (when you take the muslim world into account). There is no way in hell that the social media platforms will ever convey anything other than pro-palestine narratives and propaganda. Its not a matter of quality or truth - its quantity and mass.
A drop of truth cannot wash away lies being reported over and over until set as 'true'..
The campaign of Gaza being starved did the trick.
In reality - the U.N forbids U.S/Israel aid from entering. Why is that?
Why Hamas has yet to release hostages?
Those questions no longer matter when we can show the world images of sick kids (that has nothing to do with famine) and set the narrative.
Now good luck proving this is wrong when you have a ratio of posters swarming the net. The voice of what is actualy going on there is just not enough to be heared across all these active sync narrative being injected to mass and social media..
 
2Fluffy4U said:
https://david-collier.com/the-truth-behind-the-viral-gaza-famine-photo/

Please. Bringing Betselem and Physician for human rights as sources for something is like saying Trump never lies.
May I remind you - there are billions of people aroung the world who are pro-palestine (when you take the muslim world into account). There is no way in hell that the social media platforms will ever convey anything other than pro-palestine narratives and propaganda. Its not a matter of quality or truth - its quantity and mass.
A drop of truth cannot wash away lies being reported over and over until set as 'true'..
The campaign of Gaza being starved did the trick.
In reality - the U.N forbids U.S/Israel aid from entering. Why is that?
Why Hamas has yet to release hostages?
Those questions no longer matter when we can show the world images of sick kids (that has nothing to do with famine) and set the narrative.
Now good luck proving this is wrong when you have a ratio of posters swarming the net. The voice of what is actualy going on there is just not enough to be heared across all these active sync narrative being injected to mass and social media..
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Hamas by last Feb had realeased 25 live prisoners and 8 bodies. Since then more have been released so your statement is incorrect that they haven’t released hostages. They have in fact
 
riverman said:
Hamas by last Feb had realeased 25 live prisoners and 8 bodies. Since then more have been released so your statement is incorrect that they haven’t released hostages. They have in fact
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Accroding to your comment it would seem there is no difference between releasing some hostages to releasing All hostages?
 
crandc said:
I'm sorry but you are the one acting like Trump, @2Fluffy4U. Anything inconvenient becomes "fake news".
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The problem is these type of comments can be said the other way around. You call mine fake news and I call yours fake news.. (Al Jazeera, other Qatar backed media, social media, etc..)

The fact is - apperantly aiding Gaza is not simple.
Hamas wants to keep ruling.. any trucks entering are being taken by Hamas and then being used to keep them at ruling. They shoot their own people.
Hundreds of trucks are being entered yet the aid seems to not reach civilians. However - when you see footage of gaza mobs raiding trucks - it doesnt look like famine plagued Africa...it looks like regular mobs...(You can even witness obese people god forid)..
How can a society be categorically considered as being starved while majority of population is healthy?
Those images coming out - are categorically people with medical condtions being used to portray famine. Is that fake news?
Also - I do think condtions are not good in Gaza. It probably isnt best for a population to be living on basic produce..
But stop blaming Israel for it. Put your efforts on calling out Hamas as terrorists they are wanting to Genocide Israel and promote Sharia law, call them to release all hostages NOW - and let Palestinians rule their own with moderate leaders who can somewhat allign with western values (like Saudi Arabia etc)..
 
2Fluffy4U said:
Accroding to your comment it would seem there is no difference between releasing some hostages to releasing All hostages?
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That's your definition not mine....I'll post my own thoughts on the situation. This is not about me, it's about war victims...try to keep up. According to your post, no hostages had been released...that's not true..that's why I commented. It's easy to verify. I'm not your adversary. I want all hostages to be released and all the bombs to stop. Pretty simple really.
 
riverman said:
That's your definition not mine....I'll post my own thoughts on the situation. This is not about me, it's about war victims...try to keep up. According to your post, no hostages had been released...that's not true..that's why I commented. It's easy to verify. I'm not your adversary. I want all hostages to be released and all the bombs to stop. Pretty simple really.
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I stand corrected with my English grammer.
You are correct.
What I meant and should have been written is:
"Why has Hamas have yet to release remaining hostages?"
Now resume debate :)
 
2Fluffy4U said:
The problem is these type of comments can be said the other way around. You call mine fake news and I call yours fake news.. (Al Jazeera, other Qatar backed media, social media, etc..)

The fact is - apperantly aiding Gaza is not simple.
Hamas wants to keep ruling.. any trucks entering are being taken by Hamas and then being used to keep them at ruling. They shoot their own people.
Hundreds of trucks are being entered yet the aid seems to not reach civilians. However - when you see footage of gaza mobs raiding trucks - it doesnt look like famine plagued Africa...it looks like regular mobs...(You can even witness obese people god forid)..
How can a society be categorically considered as being starved while majority of population is healthy?
Those images coming out - are categorically people with medical condtions being used to portray famine. Is that fake news?
Also - I do think condtions are not good in Gaza. It probably isnt best for a population to be living on basic produce..
But stop blaming Israel for it. Put your efforts on calling out Hamas as terrorists they are wanting to Genocide Israel and promote Sharia law, call them to release all hostages NOW - and let Palestinians rule their own with moderate leaders who can somewhat allign with western values (like Saudi Arabia etc)..
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I realize English is not your first language, and your English is infinitely better than my Hebrew. But this is incoherent.

Al Jazeera something?
Also Gaza difficult, no argument.
Also Hamas bad, no argument.
Therefore Gaza is healthy?? Because they aren't acting like you think hungry people should?

When every reputable news agency, international relief organization, human rights group, fact finder reach the same conclusion I can accept it as basically correct. While Hamas undoubtedly makes situation worse, Israel is using famine to conquer Gaza. People are literally starving to death.

I realize Israelis feel under the gun. But they had sympathy of most of the world after October 7, as the US did after 9/11. And the Israeli leadership chose to take the lowest of low roads, starving children.

No excuse.
 
And Hamas is taking the high road..
As I have said numerous times here - the minute Hamas releases all hostages and bodies left in captivity - the war will end.
Why? Because only then no one will back Israel and reckon the fight should go on.

The world could have campaigned for the release of the hostages as step 1 unconditionally.
But for multiple reasons (geopoliticial reason) that is not the case.
The fact is there are people on both sides who wish for this conflict to continue..
In Israel - ben gvir and smotrich (mesiah ideologies) and Bibi (politicial and ideology).
In Palestinian party (Hamas - ideology, Qatar - middle east intrest, Iran - Ideology and intrests).
Most of the people - civilians on both sides want the conflict to end and for quiet and peace.
But as long as the world cant decide and promote a winner - the conflict will remain and keep growing.
Either Israel loses - and will eventually all jews/israelis will have to leave the area (free palestine from the river to the sea), or the Palestinians loses - and will have to learn to live with the fact they cant rule over Israel land, and learn to live side by side with it.
Take your pick and commit to it.
 


So fake news or not?

This seems to be a pattern: 1. Newspaper publishes Hamas propaganda as if its fact. 2. Millions of people read the story and become outraged. 3. Newspaper realizes its hamas propaganda and retracts or revises the story. 4. No one notices and its too late. 5. Repeat.
 
Not fake news at all. One boy has a medical condition. So you conclude no famine in Gaza.
Repeat.
No doubt some Jews in occupied Europe died of natural causes. Therefore no Holocaust.

I sure never in my wildest nightmare thought I would be making such a comparison.
 
crandc said:
Not fake news at all. One boy has a medical condition. So you conclude no famine in Gaza.
Repeat.
No doubt some Jews in occupied Europe died of natural causes. Therefore no Holocaust.

I sure never in my wildest nightmare thought I would be making such a comparison.
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The newspapper addmited of publishing a story not true. And yet you deny it as being fake news. I sure never in my wildest dreams nightmare thought I would be arguing with such clear evidence and still had to prove the point again and again.

That one boy was an entire article in NY times..
Narratives matter. Stories matter. Emotions provoked matter.
Facts? Not so much once the damage is done.

So on what information you do base your certain conclusion of famine in Gaza?

In auschwitz there was famine.
In Gaza there is hard time and basic-moderate produce.
The evidence is clear yet people choose not to see it. Just watch the video from my previous post.

Also - what is occupied Europe? Why did you use that terminology?
 
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2Fluffy4U said:


So fake news or not?

This seems to be a pattern: 1. Newspaper publishes Hamas propaganda as if its fact. 2. Millions of people read the story and become outraged. 3. Newspaper realizes its hamas propaganda and retracts or revises the story. 4. No one notices and its too late. 5. Repeat.
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