Ms. Keeton, The KKK, And All That Jazz............

[agoo]

I'm simply saying that I'm giving Keeton the benefit of the doubt in that she's saying she will counsel with a degree of compassion and professionalism, despite her personal feelings on this particular matter. I'm also saying that the gay/lesbian issue(s) would probably occupy less than 2% of her counseling matters. And, in these cases, I'm guessing she could/should simply defer the matter to appropriate peers or higher-ups. Is an issue of such little occurrence enough to keep the woman from pursuing a (potentially very successful) career in this field? It would be my hope that it's not.

I think the rest of us have moved beyond doubt and are going with the side of the faculty who are saying she's not capable of handling a career in this field. We're also talking about one of the biggest sources of bullying that's going on these days. And estimates put the LGBT population at between 5 and 10% and students who lack support at home and who are bullied in school are more likely to seek or be sent to counseling. This will be considerably more than 2% of her counseling matters.

Also, while your hopes are all well and good, budget cuts are running rampant and in most cases there won't be a counselor to refer a student out to without having to pay fees for a private practice. They'll cut teachers, but when they run out of non-tenured/non-unionized employees, the counselors are next to get the axe. Additionally, depending on where she ends up working, there may not be a wealth of other counselors available to make up for her deficiency.

 

[ABM]

Analogies aside, I disagree, I think all school counselors should have the education and mindset necessary to at least make an effort with anyone who comes to them for help. Having a specialty is good outside of the school and can lead to better counseling for that issue, and having a knack for dealing with the issues of adolescents in general is good for a school counselor, but not being willing to work with or not meeting the educational requirements to work with an entire set of people shouldn't be an option in my eyes. I don't believe school counselors should pick and choose the people in need of help they're willing to work with.

This is in Georgia, correct? While attending Augusta High School, Johnny and his sister, Julie, have been engaged in a torrid love affair for nearly a year now. They know they're in love and can only wish they could get married. Nonetheless, they're experiencing a tremendous amount of persecution from other students. With no other place to go, they schedule an appointment with Ms. Keeton. We can all only hope that she's been adequately trained to deal with these two poor souls.

 

[barfo]

I'm simply saying that I'm giving Keeton the benefit of the doubt in that she's saying she will counsel with a degree of compassion and professionalism, despite her personal feelings on this particular matter.

Or to put it a different way, you believe that her classmates and teachers are lying when they said that she said she would not?

barfo

 

[barfo]

This is in Georgia, correct? While attending Augusta High School, Johnny and his sister, Julie, have been engaged in a torrid love affair for nearly a year now. They know they're in love and can only wish they could get married. Nonetheless, they're experiencing a tremendous amount of persecution from other students. With no other place to go, they schedule an appointment with Ms. Keeton. We can all only hope that she's been adequately trained to deal with these two poor souls.

My guess is that Ms. Keeton can draw upon her own family history for guidance in such cases.

barfo

 

[agoo]

This is in Georgia, correct? While attending Augusta High School, Johnny and his sister, Julie, have been engaged in a torrid love affair for nearly a year now. They know they're in love and can only wish they could get married. Nonetheless, they're experiencing a tremendous amount of persecution from other students. With no other place to go, they schedule an appointment with Ms. Keeton. We can all only hope that she's been adequately trained to deal with these two poor souls.

I'd rather any one of her classmates meet with Johnny and Julie and the next meeting with Tommy and Billy, the unrelated sophomores who are in the same situation.

 

[ABM]

My guess is that Ms. Keeton can draw upon her own family history for guidance in such cases.

barfo

What, you have personal experience with said history? Well, at least that explains your sense of humor.

 

[ABM]

I'd rather any one of her classmates meet with Johnny and Julie...

Three-ways are an entirely different matter, altogether.

 

[Jayps15]

I'm simply saying that I'm giving Keeton the benefit of the doubt in that she's saying she will counsel with a degree of compassion and professionalism, despite her personal feelings on this particular matter. I'm also saying that the gay/lesbian issue(s) would probably occupy less than 2% of her counseling matters. And, in these cases, I'm guessing she could/should simply defer the matter to appropriate peers or higher-ups. Is an issue of such little occurrence enough to keep the woman from pursuing a (potentially very successful) career in this field? It would be my hope that it's not.

I rarely find prejudice and any unwavering inability to accept others to be compassionate, ugly sounds more like it. And is it fair to the potential counsels of hers to be made to wait for a separate but equal counselor for their needs? That's a potentially harmful message to put across to a vulnerable youth, that someone they looked up to and looked to for help thinks there's something fundamentally wrong with them. I wouldn't want anyone capable of that, no matter how small the chance, to counsel kids.

 

[ABM]

I rarely find prejudice and any unwavering inability to accept others to be compassionate, ugly sounds more like it. And is it fair to the potential counsels of hers to be made to wait for a separate but equal counselor for their needs? That's a potentially harmful message to put across to a vulnerable youth, that someone they looked up to and looked to for help thinks there's something fundamentally wrong with them. I wouldn't want anyone capable of that, no matter how small the chance, to counsel kids.

So, what do the acceptable counselors say? "Hey, I understand. It's good to be gay. Now, go do your classwork."

Obviously, a facetious remark on my part. However, I'd just really love to see some type of precedent out there whereas a school counselor couldn't counsel due to personal views such as these. Or, are there none in existence?

 

[Jayps15]

This is in Georgia, correct? While attending Augusta High School, Johnny and his sister, Julie, have been engaged in a torrid love affair for nearly a year now. They know they're in love and can only wish they could get married. Nonetheless, they're experiencing a tremendous amount of persecution from other students. With no other place to go, they schedule an appointment with Ms. Keeton. We can all only hope that she's been adequately trained to deal with these two poor souls.

Comparing homosexuality with incest speaks volumes about yourself. And I would be surprised if there was no material whatsoever regarding courses of action / counseling techniques to deal with incest in the entire curriculum of a counseling education program.

 

[barfo]

I rarely find prejudice and any unwavering inability to accept others to be compassionate, ugly sounds more like it. And is it fair to the potential counsels of hers to be made to wait for a separate but equal counselor for their needs? That's a potentially harmful message to put across to a vulnerable youth, that someone they looked up to and looked to for help thinks there's something fundamentally wrong with them. I wouldn't want anyone capable of that, no matter how small the chance, to counsel kids.

And the chances of another counselor being available seems slim - I read today that the student to counselor ratio in the US is 450:1. It's been many a year since I was in school and I don't know about the distribution of school sizes these days, but I suspect that means that most schools have at most one counselor.

barfo

 

[ABM]

Comparing homosexuality with incest speaks volumes about yourself..

....lest you forget what was clinically diagnosed regarding homosexuality back in the day.

As Dylan sang.....the times, they are a changin'.

 

[Jayps15]

So, what do the acceptable counselors say? "Hey, I understand. It's good to be gay. Now, go do your classwork."

Obviously, a facetious remark on my part. However, I'd just really love to see some type of precedent out there whereas a school counselor couldn't counsel due to personal views such as these. Or, are there none in existence?

That's obviously not the case with Miss Keeton though, it's not her personal beliefs and convictions that the faculty at ASU has enough of a problem with to stop her from becoming a counselor. It's the effect the far more qualified/closer to Ms Keeton faculty at ASU believe those personal views would have on her ability to perform the job in an ethical manner that's keeping her from the profession.

 

[Jayps15]

....lest you forget what was clinically diagnosed regarding homosexuality back in the day.

As Dylan sang.....the times, they are a changin'.

My 'back in the day' is like the late 90's early 00's, so I'm sure I don't know what you're referring to.

What I was referring to was the common practice of homophobes and bigots equating the sexual practices of homosexuals with incest/bestiality/rape.

 

[ABM]

My 'back in the day' is like the late 90's early 00's, so I'm sure I don't know what you're referring to.

What I was referring to was the common practice of homophobes and bigots equating the sexual practices of homosexuals with incest/bestiality/rape.

I was joking. Basically, saying that in the 70's homosexuality was deemed a sickness. Obviously, since that time, the scientific field has changed their collective stances. I was jesting that who's to say that won't someday happen with matters of incest. I mean, we're already changing sexes with no apparent sense of boundaries, right?

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

I was joking. Basically, saying that in the 70's homosexuality was deemed a sickness. Obviously, since that time, the scientific field has changed their collective stances. I was jesting that who's to say that won't someday happen with matters of incest. I mean, we're already changing sexes with no apparent sense of boundaries, right?

With incest, there is no debating that children born out of said relationship are going to have health problems. No amount of science is going to fix that.

 

[barfo]

With incest, there is no debating that children born out of said relationship are going to have health problems. No amount of science is going to fix that.

No amount of current science can fix it, but in the future we'll likely be able to repair their DNA.
And then we'll all be free to knock up our sisters.

barfo

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

No amount of current science can fix it, but in the future we'll likely be able to repair their DNA.
And then we'll all be free to knock up our sisters.

barfo

I am just going to leave this one alone but it is definitely a possibility. I would bet there is going to be some that advocate fixing DNA to cure homosexuality.

ABM, of the 1-2% of kids facing homosexual issues, I would guess 100% are going to need help dealing with them. Parents are probably going to be unprepared and society IMO is not sending the right message. Miss Keeton could be in a great position to embrace these kids for who they are and put them on a productive path. Condemning them exposes them to alot of unhealthy influences.

 

[Minstrel]

With incest, there is no debating that children born out of said relationship are going to have health problems. No amount of science is going to fix that.

Birth control can sidestep that problem, though.

I'm not advocating sibling sex, though. Unless your sibling is really, really attractive. Just be responsible.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Again, you're making the assumption that, because of her personal views, she wouldn't be qualified. Many judges have varying personal views. Doesn't mean they're necessarily unqualified to decide on matters.

Replace "christian" with "muslim" and "gay" with "jew"...would you be saying the same thing? What about a fundamentalist christian who took the same attitude towards mormons and catholics?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Replace "christian" with "muslim" and "gay" with "jew"...would you be saying the same thing? What about a fundamentalist christian who took the same attitude towards mormons and catholics?

Good point. If a student came to his counselor, despondent over bullying because he can't attend the Valentine's Day dance because he's a Jehovah's Witness, I would hope said counselor would not respond with, "Well, being a Jehovah's Witness is wrong anyway, so you need to convert to evangelicalism in order to be happy."

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I was joking. Basically, saying that in the 70's homosexuality was deemed a sickness. Obviously, since that time, the scientific field has changed their collective stances. I was jesting that who's to say that won't someday happen with matters of incest. I mean, we're already changing sexes with no apparent sense of boundaries, right?

You know, that reminds me; I think it's discriminatory to deem schizophrenia a "sickness". My brother and uncle were both born schizophrenics--they didn't choose to be that way. Schizophrenics can't help that they hear/see things that others don't. And really, who's to say that the voices don't actually exist? How do we know that they're not just more sensitive to available stimuli than the rest of us are? I think it's unfair to the schizophrenic population to insist that they be medicated to suppress their natural characteristics--we should simply accept them the way they are and stop trying to change them.

[/soapbox]

 

[agoo]

I hear ya.

Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

So at the point at which you know you're on the wrong side of an argument, you have two good options and a couple of bad one. For good options, you can make like Mike Tyson and fade of into Bolivian or you can admit that you've been moved to the other side on the issue at hand. For bad options, you can keep on making the argument that you've been making or you can shift the argument into something that has nothing to do with the previous discussion points of the week.

Seems like you're taking both bad options.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/mar/03/a-vancouver-man-who-stabbed-his-sister-to-death-be/

I know you were probably joking, but not a good example PtldPlatypus. The victim was a very good player on my wife's softball team.

 

[ABM]

Sounds like you're agreeing with me.

Yeah, but I had kinda changed your quote slightly.


It's all fine, though, guys. It very much appears to be a debate that we'll have to agree to disagree. Certainly not the first time that's happened in these parts.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

For those thinking Ms. Keeton is within her rights, what would you say to someone that refused to acknowledge any religion and wanted to become a school counselor?

If a kid came to them and had issues that centered on their faith, the counselor would just tell them that no god exists and then try to convert them. The other alternative would be to pass the issue off to someone that did have knowledge, thus making the couselor worthless.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

http://www.columbian.com/news/2010/mar/03/a-vancouver-man-who-stabbed-his-sister-to-death-be/

I know you were probably joking, but not a good example PtldPlatypus. The victim was a very good player on my wife's softball team.

Interesting word choice. If she had been only a mediocre player, would it have been less of a tragedy?

More to the point, why should a few exceptions be considered indicative of an entire group? There are thousands of schizophrenics in this country, the overwhelmingly vast majority of which do not commit violent crimes. I'm sorry that the actions of one impacted your family, but why should those in mine be impacted by him?

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Interesting word choice. If she had been only a mediocre player, would it have been less of a tragedy?

More to the point, why should a few exceptions be considered indicative of an entire group? There are thousands of schizophrenics in this country, the overwhelmingly vast majority of which do not commit violent crimes. I'm sorry that the actions of one impacted your family, but why should those in mine be impacted by him?

It would not have been any less of a tragedy. What I was basing my opinion on was a small sample size, but here is the quote from wikipedia:

The relationship between violent acts and schizophrenia is a contentious topic. Current research indicates that the percentage of people with schizophrenia who commit violent acts is higher than the percentage of people without any disorder, but lower than is found for disorders such as alcoholism, and the difference is reduced or not found in same-neighbourhood comparisons when related factors are taken into account, notably sociodemographic variables and substance misuse.[183] Studies have indicated that 5% to 10% of those charged with murder in Western countries have a schizophrenia spectrum disorder.[184][185][186]

The occurrence of psychosis in schizophrenia has sometimes been linked to a higher risk of violent acts. Findings on the specific role of delusions or hallucinations have been inconsistent, but have focused on delusional jealousy, perception of threat and command hallucinations. It has been proposed that a certain type of individual with schizophrenia may be most likely to offend, characterized by a history of educational difficulties, low IQ, conduct disorder, early-onset substance misuse and offending prior to diagnosis.[184]

Individuals with a diagnosis of schizophrenia are often the victims of violent crime—at least 14 times more often than they are perpetrators.[187][188] Another consistent finding is a link to substance misuse, particularly alcohol,[189] among the minority who commit violent acts. Violence by or against individuals with schizophrenia typically occurs in the context of complex social interactions within a family setting,[190] and is also an issue in clinical services[191] and in the wider community.[192]

If a person is diagnosed with schizophrenia and does not fall into one of the grouping that are a danger to society, I agree that there is no reason for medication to supress their condition.

 

[ABM]

Miss Keeton could be in a great position to embrace these kids for who they are and put them on a productive path. Condemning them exposes them to alot of unhealthy influences.

If Ms. Keeton worked for me and she condemned any child for any reason, that would be instant grounds for reprimandation...up to and including termination.

That said, it appears that most of you are relating that, since Ms Keeton appears to be so intent and adamant on following her convictions, she won't be able to separate those feelings from acting in a professional manner. If that's truly the case (a big "if", as I'm still not totally sure that it is), then she would be unqualified in becoming a school counselor. I get that.

 

[agoo]

If Ms. Keeton worked for me and she condemned any child for any reason, that would be instant grounds for reprimandation...up to and including termination.

That said, it appears that most of you are relating that, since Ms Keeton appears to be so intent and adamant on following her convictions, she won't be able to separate those feelings from acting in a professional manner. If that's truly the case (a big "if", as I'm still not totally sure that it is), then she would be unqualified in becoming a school counselor. I get that.

I've said this before, but I'm too lazy to find it, so I'll just type it again.

Her highly educated, well-trained, and experienced faculty are saying that she's unqualified. We're just agreeing. And please don't try editing my post to be cute.