Ms. Keeton, The KKK, And All That Jazz............

[ABM]

I've said this before, but I'm too lazy to find it, so I'll just type it again.

Her highly educated, well-trained, and experienced faculty are saying that she's unqualified. We're just agreeing. And please don't try editing my post to be cute.

Sorry about that. I should have mentioned that at the time.

That said, there are highly educated, well-trained, and experienced judges (all the way up to Supreme Court status) that are diametrically opposed on such matters, as well.

Moreover, just because these ASU faculty members are in unison, certainly doesn't mean that faculty members at a different (perhaps, more conservative) state institution wouldn't handle the matter differently.

jus sayin'

 

[barfo]

Moreover, just because these ASU faculty members are in unison, certainly doesn't mean that faculty members at a different (perhaps, more conservative) state institution wouldn't handle the matter differently.

jus sayin'

It's true, there are always backwaters where social change is slower and where it is easier to cling to the old prejudices.
But change will eventually come, even there.

barfo

 

[ABM]

But change will eventually come, even there.

barack

OK, sounds good.

 

[andalusian]

That said, it appears that most of you are relating that, since Ms Keeton appears to be so intent and adamant on following her convictions, she won't be able to separate those feelings from acting in a professional manner.

So, if you have daughters - and some 20 years old tells you "I'll tap that" when he looks at your daughter - would you still let him babysit her?

This is a high-risk game with the life of these kids - taking the safe rather than risky way based on her own words is the right thing to do.

 

[ABM]

I think it would have saved some of us time had you just came out in the beginning and say, "I think it's discrimination, and I'm sticking to it!" Because it's not a debate when one side is ignoring and is unwilling to consider the other side arguments.

No, after much debate back and forth, I simply said I would agree to disagree. That said, even though the ASA has "guidelines", there appears to be certain flexibilities within the respective institutions as to discern and act accordingly as they see fit. I'm just saying another state university may have responded completely differently....including allowing Ms. Keeton to finish her degree.

Most everyone here (along with ASU, apparently) seems to be saying that Ms. Keeton would be completely unable to act professionally. I'm not so quick to make that judgement.

 

[andalusian]

Most everyone here (along with ASU, apparently) seems to be saying that Ms. Keeton would be completely unable to act professionally. I'm not so quick to make that judgement.

No, what we are saying is that the stakes are too high to play with. Maybe she can, maybe she can't - but since people's lives might be at stakes - we do not find that having doubts about her performance based on her own words is not discrimination, it's being responsible. If she was responsible, she would understand that there is difference between personal beliefs and the requirements of her job.

 

[ABM]

No, what we are saying is that the stakes are too high to play with. Maybe she can, maybe she can't - but since people's lives might be at stakes - we do not find that having doubts about her performance based on her own words is not discrimination, it's being responsible. If she was responsible, she would understand that there is difference between personal beliefs and the requirements of her job.

And, if she were to get a different result (meaning, not expelled) from a state university in a different state................what would you say.....it's the university's fault? IMO, this isn't as black & white as you're maintaining it is.

 

[julius]

No, after much debate back and forth, I simply said I would agree to disagree. That said, even though the ASA has "guidelines", there appears to be certain flexibilities within the respective institutions as to discern and act accordingly as they see fit. I'm just saying another state university may have responded completely differently....including allowing Ms. Keeton to finish her degree.

Most everyone here (along with ASU, apparently) seems to be saying that Ms. Keeton would be completely unable to act professionally. I'm not so quick to make that judgement.

You should send her a degree from the ABM school of counseling and diesel repair.

 

[andalusian]

And, if she were to get a different result (meaning, not expelled) from a state university in a different state................what would you say.....it's the university's fault? IMO, this isn't as black & white as you're maintaining it is.

I would not say anything - because I am not an expert. If these experts believe she can get a certification - who am I to challenge them? But this is not something you apparently are willing to take - despite the fact that apparently you are not an expert as well.

The facts are:

1. These guys are experts - it's what they do and have been doing for a while.
2. It is not likely that she is the only Christian that ever went through their program.
3. The case has already been thrown out once in court.

If a team of experts make a decision - which is not likely a very common decision - I very much doubt that this is the kind of blatant christian bashing you present it as. I would guess that there would more Christians that they would have expelled for questionable reasons.

My opinion is that if you want certification in a certain profession - you need to earn it. It is pretty clear that they gave her tasks to complete to earn that certification that she is unwilling to adhere to.

So, given what I know about the situation - it sounds to me like someone that wants to have eat her cake and have it to, not like the blatant discrimination case you try to present it.

With all due respect - Christians are not exactly a persecuted minority in this country, certainly not in the Southern states.

Looks to me like you are doing a Keetoneasm - you are letting you personal beliefs about gays cloud your judgment.

 

[ABM]

Looks to me like you are doing a Keetoneasm - you are letting you personal beliefs about gays cloud your judgment.

Hardly. I have lesbian family members (whom I love and respect), plus a number gay friends (same). It's one thing to have personal feelings about these types of things. Quite another to display direct prejudice and/or hatred. I have neither. It's my hope that Ms. Keeton shares the same attitude.

 

[andalusian]

Hardly. I have lesbian family members (whom I love and respect), plus a number gay friends (same). It's one thing to have personal feelings about these types of things. Quite another to display direct prejudice and/or hatred. I have neither. It's my hope that Ms. Keeton shares the same attitude.

Not what I said. I said that she is unable to get over her Homophobic issues and face the fact that the problem is with her, not with persecution of her belief, and you seem to be doing the exact same (regarding her situation). The issue is not persecution of her belief, it's her inability to conform to requirements that are needed for the profession and certification she wants.

One's beliefs are not something to hide behind when you can't earn something you work for. You can't be a bacon taste tester if you are a devout muslim or jew that can't eat pork. If you can't get over the hurdles of your beliefs - you are unfit for the job. Exactly what is happening to Ms. Keeton. She has to choose between a profession or beliefs. If she can't - she is unfit for the job. Simple as that.

 

[ABM]

So you the ability to hide your true feelings toward them well. Congratulations.

I'm just saying......according to the Bible...and what I personally believe:

1) We're all sinners in need of Jesus
2) Homosexuality is a sin (But, so is cheating on your income taxes, and a bazillion other things)
3) We're to love and be accepting of each other despite our relative shortcomings/sins

As far as I know, ASU was pinning Ms. Keeton down as to make her accept that homosexuality is not a choice (i.e. people can be born that way). Ms. Keeton wouldn't accept that directive from them.

 

[ABM]

Why am I telling you of this story? As I said, I think it would be much more convincing with a genuine explanation of what they meant to say rather than quickly bring up their family members or friends as "proof" that they aren't bigots.

Sorry about my poor example. That said, I related a more genuine explanation following that one. Just because I believe that the acts of homosexuality are wrong in God's eyes, gives me absolutely no reason to condemn the homosexual. The Bible is clear on that, as well:

How can you think of saying, 'Friend, let me help you get rid of that speck in your eye,' when you can't see past the log in your own eye? Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye.

~Luke 6:42

As they say, it is what it is.

 

[julius]

Sorry about my poor example. That said, I related a more genuine explanation following that one. Just because I believe that the acts of homosexuality are wrong in God's eyes, gives me absolutely no reason to condemn the homosexual. The Bible is clear on that, as well:



As they say, it is what it is.

That seems to say "judge not, lest ye be judged". or whatever it is. (how is it that I wrote that correct 2 different times, but it came out wrong both times I posted it?)

So shut yer trap about them being sinners or not. It's a book, and a poor interpretation at that.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

As far as I know, ASU was pinning Ms. Keeton down as to make her accept that homosexuality is not a choice (i.e. people can be born that way). Ms. Keeton wouldn't accept that directive from them.

And for that reason alone, she has no business being around kids.

 

[ABM]

And for that reason alone, she has no business being around kids.

The Bible says otherwise...........whether any of you want to relegate it being just a "book", or not.

 

[andalusian]

The Bible says otherwise...........whether any of you want to relegate it being just a "book", or not.

The bible has Ms. Keeton in it? Will wonders ever cease?

Was she the woman that made Samson get a haircut? It was her, it was, I just know it.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

The Bible says otherwise...........whether any of you want to relegate it being just a "book", or not.

Would you like to debate that or are you going to keep that idea no matter how much evidence proves otherwise?

 

[ABM]

Would you like to debate that or are you going to keep that idea no matter how much evidence proves otherwise?

You wouldn't be able to provide enough data or, so-called evidence to convince me otherwise. I have far too many life experiences to cement/secure me in my beliefs.

Thanks just the same, though.

 

[ABM]

Why would it be a "cruel form of favoritism" to you?

Because the Scriptures say that God created man and woman to "multiply" and inhabit the earth. To me, it would be a very cruel thing for God to create men/women with a different bent than that.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Because the Scriptures say that God created man and woman to "multiply" and inhabit the earth. To me, it would be a very cruel thing for God to create men/women with a different bent than that.

So God is being cruel for creating those without reproductive systems or transsexuals?

 

[barfo]

Because the Scriptures say that God created man and woman to "multiply" and inhabit the earth. To me, it would be a very cruel thing for God to create men/women with a different bent than that.

So everytime God creates an infertile person, he's being cruel?

barfo

 

[ABM]

So everytime God creates an infertile person, he's being cruel?

barfo

You can attribute that to Adam's sin way back in the Garden of Eden.

That said, the Bible is extremely clear on acts of homosexuality. In all actuality, it's really moot for me to think it would be cruel of God to do anything. He'll do exactly what He wants.

 

[ABM]

Indeed. Quite sad, frankly, as we supposedly are living in the age of reason.

That's what the gnostics lamented, as well.

 

[barfo]

You can attribute that to Adam's sin way back in the Garden of Eden.

So infertile people are Adam's fault, but gay people are god being cruel?

Wow.

That said, the Bible is extremely clear on acts of homosexuality. In all actuality, it's really moot for me to think

Guess so

barfo

 

[ABM]

Lev. 20:13, "If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them."

Yeah, there was some pretty heavy-duty punishments enacted back in Old Testament times. I do know that Jesus said he brought the New Covenant. He became the sin sacrifice by dying on a cross. It's just a matter if I (or any of us) decide to choose Him, or not.

Trust me, I lived much of my life in selfish, ongoing, sinful behaviors. The life I have today is incomparable. There's absolutely no question in my mind that I'd be dead by now had I not chosen Christ.

 

[ABM]

So infertile people are Adam's fault, but gay people are god being cruel?

Wow.



Guess so

barfo

Actually, it does make sense. God has given us all the ability to choose Him. If homosexuality is not a choice - ever, then God naturally becomes a liar.

 

[ABM]

Because, as you well know, homosexuals have just the same ability to procreate as the heterosexuals.

Not if they don't have a choice, they can't.

 

[julius]

You can attribute that to Adam's sin way back in the Garden of Eden.

That said, the Bible is extremely clear on acts of homosexuality. In all actuality, it's really moot for me to think it would be cruel of God to do anything. He'll do exactly what He wants.

your god seems like a real bastard, if you ask me. Because some nitwit a long time ago made a mistake, children are born with disabilities, or people can't have kids?

What a real tool.

 

[julius]

Just out of curiosity, ABM, have you watched Religulous?

It's a good film (although it does drag on in parts).