Politics My libertarian view on banning abortion

[Chris Craig]

Paul mentions homosexuality in the New Testament.

? What is the verse?

 

[Minstrel]

Paul mentions homosexuality in the New Testament.

I didn't ask if it was mentioned, I asked if a judgment was provided about homosexuality--i.e. the rightness or wrongness of it.

If so, can you provide me the passage? Because I'm unaware of any such judgment.

 

[riverman]

That's a hard one for serial Killers tho...

It's why I said joy including those around you ….not in a serial killers toolbox

 

[trailblazer18]

Why is there no tbou shalt not be gay in the 10 commandments if God was so against it? Thou shalt not have abortions?

I would say, using what is contained in the other parts of the bible, that those 2 items would fall under the different commandments. Don't murder and don't commit adultery (adultery meaning sex outside of God's definition of marriage).

 

[Chris Craig]

It's why I said joy including those around you ….not in a serial killers toolbox

Perception perception

 

[riverman]

I just want to say. I respect everyone in here and your beliefs. I will not and do not hate anyone if we have differing views. I appreciate the conversation. I am not a wordsmith, so hopefully will not stumble in my responses.

Back at you! Civil discourse is the best!

 

[Chris Craig]

I would say, using what is contained in the other parts of the bible, that those 2 items would fall under the different commandments. Don't murder and don't commit adultery (adultery meaning sex outside of God's definition of marriage).

Being gay is no adultery. Adultery is sleeping with another person if your married...hence thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.

I don't see it as murder.

But, that's me. And you are you. And its all good

 

[Chris Craig]

I just want to say. I respect everyone in here and your beliefs. I will not and do not hate anyone if we have differing views. I appreciate the conversation. I am not a wordsmith, so hopefully will not stumble in my responses.

Ditto. It's fun to have the conversation.

 

[trailblazer18]

I didn't ask if it was mentioned, I asked if a judgment was provided about homosexuality--i.e. the rightness or wrongness of it.

If so, can you provide me the passage? Because I'm unaware of any such judgment.

Check out Romans 1: starting in verse 26 - 32. 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11; 1 Timothy 1: 8-11

 

[trailblazer18]

Being gay is no adultery. Adultery is sleeping with another person if your married...hence thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.

I don't see it as murder.

But, that's me. And you are you. And its all good

The word used for adultery in the Hebrew also means sex outside of God's definition of marriage.

 

[Chris Craig]

The word used for adultery in the Hebrew also means sex outside of God's definition of marriage.

Ok...and where is God's definition?

 

[trailblazer18]

No that law was written by a man. The book is man made... It also calls tattoos an abomination too...

If God does exist, HE CREATED GAY PEOPLE...

Here I thought God doesn't make mistakes...

Again, Christians believe that God used men to write the Bible, they were inspired by the Holy Spirit, so the Bible is God's actual Word. I have to believe that, if I didn't I would be a fool to believe in a man made book, claiming to know God's thoughts and laws. I understand my logic doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't believe. If my wife tells me she got impregnated by the Holy Spirit, I aint believing her one bit. But because God tells me in the Bible I do believe it about Mary. And God knows this. That is why he had to to send an angel straight up to Joseph to convince him that his wife truly was impregnated by the Holy Spirit, not by another person.

 

[trailblazer18]

Ok...and where is God's definition?

Genesis Chapter 2 verse 24. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

 

[riverman]

I've always liked the idea that every living entity we can perceive is part of what folks call "God" but that somewhere along the line we forgot we're actually connected through this and part of it. What I don't trust are the politics of religious movements and the accuracy of human interpretations of knowledge throughout history...the storytellers...they're like journalists or anybody ...flawed. The law that governs me is my inner traffic light...green light..go for it...yellow light...be really carefull and look around...red light...stop everything and take another path without drawing attention.

 

[Chris Craig]

Genesis Chapter 2 verse 24. Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.

So having sex with someone beside the person you are married to?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I've said on here before that I am a Christian, and in many ways's I agree with tb18.
I don't have anything all that thought-provoking to add to this conversation.

I would like to say that I do find abortion bothers me, especially mid/late term. I very strongly believe that it isn't my place, or the churches place to dictate laws to people who either don't believe in God at all or believe in a different god. I think people should vote with their consciences sure, but I think it's proven throughout history that any ideology religious or secular that has dictated to its people laws in such a manner is dangerous not just for them but for the safety of other countries too.

We can go round and round about what is a "sin" and what isn't and all that but ultimately to me, Christianity is about Loving people, and whatever "Judgement" God has for people is up to him, the ultimate worst part of this to me isn't abortion or homosexuality, it's how many Christians don't love people, and judge them and treat them wrong, and want them punished. It's sick that in so-called, "Christian" states racism is such a problem, and hate for those who don't meet their moral code is so high.

For the record. I don't own a gun, I'm not telling people how to live their life, I try to respect everyone in this forum and treat you all with respect even when I know we disagree.

 

[trailblazer18]

So having sex with someone beside the person you are married to?

According to God we should only have sex with our husband or wife (one man, one woman) in the context of marriage. This verse is in the context of God creating Adam and Eve.

 

[trailblazer18]

I've said on here before that I am a Christian, and in many ways's I agree with tb18.
I don't have anything all that thought-provoking to add to this conversation.

I would like to say that I do find abortion bothers me, especially mid/late term. I very strongly believe that it isn't my place, or the churches place to dictate laws to people who either don't believe in God at all or believe in a different god. I think people should vote with their consciences sure, but I think it's proven throughout history that any ideology religious or secular that has dictated to its people laws in such a manner is dangerous not just for them but for the safety of other countries too.

We can go round and round about what is a "sin" and what isn't and all that but ultimately to me, Christianity is about Loving people, and whatever "Judgement" God has for people is up to him, the ultimate worst part of this to me isn't abortion or homosexuality, it's how many Christians don't love people, and judge them and treat them wrong, and want them punished. It's sick that in so-called, "Christian" states racism is such a problem, and hate for those who don't meet their moral code is so high.

For the record. I don't own a gun, I'm not telling people how to live their life, I try to respect everyone in this forum and treat you all with respect even when I know we disagree.

He said it better than I can.

 

[Chris Craig]

I've said on here before that I am a Christian, and in many ways's I agree with tb18.
I don't have anything all that thought-provoking to add to this conversation.

I would like to say that I do find abortion bothers me, especially mid/late term. I very strongly believe that it isn't my place, or the churches place to dictate laws to people who either don't believe in God at all or believe in a different god. I think people should vote with their consciences sure, but I think it's proven throughout history that any ideology religious or secular that has dictated to its people laws in such a manner is dangerous not just for them but for the safety of other countries too.

We can go round and round about what is a "sin" and what isn't and all that but ultimately to me, Christianity is about Loving people, and whatever "Judgement" God has for people is up to him, the ultimate worst part of this to me isn't abortion or homosexuality, it's how many Christians don't love people, and judge them and treat them wrong, and want them punished. It's sick that in so-called, "Christian" states racism is such a problem, and hate for those who don't meet their moral code is so high.

For the record. I don't own a gun, I'm not telling people how to live their life, I try to respect everyone in this forum and treat you all with respect even when I know we disagree.

Well said

 

[Lanny]

Children getting gunned down in school is already illegal.

How about guns in the hands of people we know shouldn't have them? Suppose those people go on to commit murder, do we then prosecute those who voted against any kind of gun control as accessories to the crime?

 

[Lanny]

If one believes that Abortion is Murder then:

Every time there is an abortion someone dies because of it. It is a 100% death rate.

When someone owns an assault rifle, someone does not die. It is a very small percentage of total available assault rifles that result in death.

That is the answer to your question.

I don't see where any reason is put up that makes it okay to have assault rifles.

 

[Lanny]

And what if YOU got pregnant and we’re not ready to raise a child for 18 years? What if it was rape to YOU? What if it was incest on YOU? Would you will be so quick to “defend the defenseless “? And what about the mother? What about her rights to HER body?? How convenient and simplistic a take you have.

Go read Roe v. Wade and see the logic of what it says. it’s actually a very brilliant solution.

I have to disagree. The whole question depends on how far along the woman's pregnancy is.
Obviously killing a child just before birth or during birth would be murder.
It seems clear to me that killing a freshly fertized egg would not be murder.
The answer seems to be somewhere in between. I see our problem as defining where that in between point is.

 

[dviss1]

Paul mentions homosexuality in the New Testament.

Fuck Paul.

Paul also said this about Women:

1 Corinthians 14:34-36 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Because of this BULLSHIT, women were not allowed to become ministers... So what, I'm s'posed to listen to that fucking idiot??

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I don't see where any reason is put up that makes it okay to have assault rifles.

Why not?

OP sees that Abortion is Murder. There are more "murders" via abortion on a scale a million times more than there are murders using assault rifles.

So its logical to assume, from his perspective, that abortions should be banned before assault rifles.

Also, not all assault rifles end in death, but all abortions do.

 

[trailblazer18]

Fuck Paul.

Paul also said this about Women:

1 Corinthians 14:34-36 King James Version (KJV)
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

Because of this BULLSHIT, women were not allowed to become ministers... So what, I'm s'posed to listen to that fucking idiot??

The point this drives home is, either the Bible is all true, or part is false making it all worthless. Culture and context does play a role in how the Bible should be interpreted as well, don't forget that when pulling out small sections of scripture.

 

[dviss1]

I understand my logic doesn't make sense to someone who doesn't believe.

Don't ever say this to someone who used to be DEVOUT.

Don't ever challenge me to a bible drill. You'll lose. I know your book just as well as anyone who's read it cover to cover 2x.

I USED to believe. Now I'm realizing how wack that religion is.

I studied lots of religions. Mormonism, Buddhism, Muslim. I even studied to be Jehovah Witness.

But I was a devout Christian.

And it's NOT logic. It's belief and faith in what you believe.

 

[dviss1]

The point this drives home is, either the Bible is all true, or part is false making it all worthless. Culture and context does play a role in how the Bible should be interpreted as well, don't forget that when pulling out small sections of scripture.

Really? I thought it was God's word and that he makes no mistakes.

You can't have it both ways.

And I'm frankly FUCKING tired of the whole "context" bullshit.

Don't do this with me. I destroy Christians in debates.

We could just go over all the hipocrisy in the book. Yeah let's do that:

The Sabbath Day
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.” — Exodus 20:8

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.” — Romans 14:5

The Permanence of Earth
“… the earth abideth for ever.” — Ecclesiastes 1:4

“… the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” — 2Peter 3:10

Seeing God
“… I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” — Genesis 32:30

“No man hath seen God at any time…”– John 1:18

Human Sacrifice
“… Thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God…” — Leviticus 18:21

[In Judges, though, the tale of Jephthah, who led the Israelites against the Ammonoites, is being told. Being fearful of defeat, this good religious man sought to guarantee victory by getting god firmly on his side. So he prayed to god] “… If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD’s, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering” — Judges 11:30-31

[The terms were acceptable to god — remember, he is supposed to be omniscient and know the future — so he gave victory to Jephthah, and the first whatsoever that greeted him upon his glorious return was his daughter, as god surely knew would happen, if god is god. True to his vow, the general made a human sacrifice of his only child to god!] — Judges 11:29-34

The Power of God
“… with God all things are possible.” — Matthew 19:26

“…The LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — Judges 1:19

Personal Injury
“…thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. ” — Exodus 21:23-25

“…ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.” — Matthew 5:39

Circumcision
“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” — Genesis 17:10

“…if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” — Galatians 5:2

Incest
“Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of this mother…” — Deuteronomy 27:22

“And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter…it is a wicked thing….” — Leviticus 20:17

[But what was god’s reaction to Abraham, who married his sister — his father’s daughter?] See Genesis 20:11-12

“And God said unto Abraham, As for Sara thy wife…I bless her, and give thee a son also of her…” — Genesis 17:15-16

Trusting God
“A good man obtaineth favour of the LORD…” — Proverbs 12:2

Now consider the case of Job. After commissioning Satan to ruin Job financially and to slaughter his shepherds and children to win a petty bet with Satan. God asked Satan: “Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.” — Job 2:3

The Holy Lifestyle
“Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart…” — Ecclesiastes 9:7

“…they that rejoice, as though they rejoiced not…” — 1 Corinthians 7:30

Punishing Crime
“The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father…” — Ezekiel 18:20

“I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation…” — Exodus 20:5

Temptation
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.” — James 1:13

“And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham…” — Genesis 22:1

Family Relationships
“Honor thy father and thy mother…”– Exodus 20:12

“If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. ” — Luke 14:26

Resurrection of the Dead
“…he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. ” — Job 7:9

“…the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth….” — John 5:28-29

The End of the World
“Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. ” — Matthew 16:28

“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. ” — Luke 21:32-33

“And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.” — Romans 13:11-12

“Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.” — James 5:8

“Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.” — 1 John 2:18

“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.” — 1 Peter 4:7

 

[MarAzul]

It ain't american and our founders were NOT Christian.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/27/george-washingtons-church-tear-down-memorial-honor/
http://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/how-john-adams-became-a-church-going-animal/
http://www.newenglandhistoricalsociety.com/how-john-adams-became-a-church-going-animal/
Actually the establishment clause does not give you freedom from religion. Nor does it imply that the founders were not Christian.
Logic would tell you there were not Christian as there was not a Christian Church in that time or this one.
There were several established Churches that, in their way do worship Jesus.

Congress is prohibited from establishing any religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Religious phrases on building, money or crosses on memorials do not establish a church (religion).

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/oct/27/george-washingtons-church-tear-down-memorial-honor/

 

[MarAzul]

Now I'm realizing how wack that religion is.

Rather an odd take to settle on.

 

[crandc]

The day after the Alabama governor signed a total ban on abortion, saying all life is precious to god, Alabama carried out another execution.