Religion My priest lectured us about suicide and mental health today

[Lanny]

He talked about how he had suffered from deep depression for years and how a multitude of issues drove people to suicide. He mentioned burying the son of a family he knew well who died from a drug overdose. He mentioned how deeply the LGBTQ community was affected and driven to suicide. He went on to advise all of us to be more understanding of those who are different This all hit me like a freight train 'cause these are humans who we have trouble having empathy with. I'm going to redouble my effort to be more understanding, someone's life could depend on it and that's important to me, no matter who it is.

Donald Trump, pray for forgiveness, seek forgiveness and I will support you.

 

[Further]

I spoke with my father today about a good friend of his who recently committed suicide. She had breast cancer and had been going through chemo. The prognosis was excellent but the meds made her hallucinate and most likely were the main contributing cause to her suicide. She leaves two adult children and several grandchildren behind.

 

[donkiez]

I think this is a great idea and we should all be nicer to people. However, just being nice to people wont help much. These suicide and mass shootings are a reflection on our society and what we value, not how much we smile and hold the door for each other. Look at Kate Spade and Bourdain, both of them had everything any or us could wish for and it wasnt enough. As much as I dont like religions the community that the church provides is probably a big step in the right direction for a lot of people, but its only a small part of the support network that should be available and isn't. Our whole country needs to take a long look in the mirror but we wont because that would affect the bottom line.

 

[Further]

I also believe fully that a large percentage of those who kill themselves do so due to imbalances in their brain chemistry. Like my fathers friend I spoke of, she was on chemo that twisted her thought processes. I had suicide ideation at one point in my life due to being on the stop-smoking drug chantex. When I got off of the drug all thoughts of suicide evaporated and have never returned.

Of course there are others with rotten brain chemistry naturally or due to past drug addiction who need some stabilizers and psychiatric assistance.

So there needs to be a several pronged effort in our society on top of being nice or having a great community around you. We need doctors to more closely monitor their patients for side effects, not just for the efficacy of the intended drugs purpose. We need to make sure that those without psychiatric assistance throughout society have avenues very easily available and promoted to get the help they so desperately need. We need to stop overprescribing in general. We also need to change the narrative in America so that ones mental health is discussed openly and without judgement. Take the stigma away from seeking help and make sure that help is easy to reach.

This is not a small problem. There are so many moving parts but I think society is starting to realize and work towards correcting some of the problems. It's going to take a lot more effort to really see a major correction

 

[Lanny]

I spoke with my father today about a good friend of his who recently committed suicide. She had breast cancer and had been going through chemo. The prognosis was excellent but the meds made her hallucinate and most likely were the main contributing cause to her suicide. She leaves two adult children and several grandchildren behind.

Always sad to learn about a suicide.

 

[oldfisherman]

I'm not sure "mental health issues" is the best term to describe suicide. Mental health issues covers far more than depression. I prefer "sensitive issues".

What is causing so much pain the person is too sensitive to live with it?

In some suicide cases, the pain is physical caused by an illness . Some people are more sensitive to physical pain than others.

In other cases, the pain is emotional, such as the lose of a loved one (whatever the cause). Some people can live with the grief, others are too sensitive.

 

[Further]

I'm not sure "mental health issues" is the best term to describe suicide. Mental health issues covers far more than depression. I prefer "sensitive issues".

What is causing so much pain the person is too sensitive to live with it?

In some suicide cases, the pain is physical caused by an illness . Some people are more sensitive to physical pain than others.

In other cases, the pain is emotional, such as the lose of a loved one (whatever the cause). Some people can live with the grief, others are too sensitive.

When I was most contemplating suicide (never truly planning it) it wasn’t a sensitivity at all. The stop smoking drug I was on was inhibiting a neural pathway responsible for dopamine (the reward our body gives us to feel good). It wasn’t that anything was overly negative just that life included zero joy. So depression sets in and then it became a cycle.

 

[Further]

And I didn’t realize I wasn’t able to feel any joy, I had memories of joy. The feelings just didn’t happen.

When there is no joy reward, there is no reason to go out with friends, read an uplifting book or go for a jog. Seclusion sets in and then the feeling of being out of place.

 

[Further]

if you have not had your brain chemistry out of whack it is extremely difficult to understand what actual depression can be. It’s not synonymous with sad, at least it wasn’t for me. It’s a lack of anything positive. No good outcomes. And unfortunately when there are no good outcomes it blurs the line between very bad outcomes like suicide.

 

[oldfisherman]

if you have not had your brain chemistry out of whack it is extremely difficult to understand what actual depression can be. It’s not synonymous with sad, at least it wasn’t for me. It’s a lack of anything positive. No good outcomes. And unfortunately when there are no good outcomes it blurs the line between very bad outcomes like suicide.

Suicide is a very complicated topic.

 

[Lanny]

And I didn’t realize I wasn’t able to feel any joy, I had memories of joy. The feelings just didn’t happen.

When there is no joy reward, there is no reason to go out with friends, read an uplifting book or go for a jog. Seclusion sets in and then the feeling of being out of place.

I've heard about this but never experienced it.

I think they've got new medicines that work really well if taken on a regular basis.

 

[Further]

I've heard about this but never experienced it.

I think they've got new medicines that work really well if taken on a regular basis.

It depends for what. The pills I took were supposed to block that pathway so I wouldn’t have the urge to smoke. Problem is, instead of being on Chantix for 3 months I got several new prescriptions and was on it for one year.

My fathers friend was onChemo drugsthat did this as a side effect

The brain is very complex

 

[H.C.]

Donald Trump, pray for forgiveness, seek forgiveness and I will support you.

Believe you missed the point of the message. Or at least this point.
Someone doesn't need to seek forgiveness or pray for forgiveness for man to forgive them. Mankind is not the judge.
Therefore our only duty is to forgive regardless of what their actions are.

 

[Lanny]

Believe you missed the point of the message. Or at least this point.
Someone doesn't need to seek forgiveness or pray for forgiveness for man to forgive them. Mankind is not the judge.
Therefore our only duty is to forgive regardless of what their actions are.

I don't forgive unless there's an apology that comes with it.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I don't forgive unless there's an apology that comes with it.

Jesus on the cross asked his Father to forgive the people who were killing him, they never asked for it. This also implies he forgave them.

Also along the same line Jesus also said, “he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Now I’m not here to get into it with people over God, Religion, the Bible. Do what you want (Not that I could stop you lol). Just pointing it out. Ultimately in the Biblical world view sins are against God, when Trump or whom ever says something hurtful, hurts people, his Judge is God not us, because like Jesus said, what you have done to the least of these you have done to me. Which is why it’s so important to treat all people as if their have intrinsic value no matter who they are.

Anyways like I said I’m not here to argue with you, or anyone on how they view the world, atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, catholic, whatever.

 

[riverman]

life choices....we can look at the beauty in the world or the ugliness around the world ...both are always there. glad some can find joy in prayer...better than finding it in a needle or the bottom of a bottle. physical work is my go to move...I also think if someone wants to check out of life....so be it. Chemical inbalance is it's own issue...that can be corrected...we just had a thread about over population but for some reason....people seem to be more concerned about suicide. living a life of suffering is in some cases...not living a life. I've come to the point where I can easily just let go of the need to save someone from their choices...but I don't have the concept of heaven, hell or limbo to fear or look up to.....if someone did horrible things to my loved ones, there'd be no forgiveness from my camp.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I don't forgive unless there's an apology that comes with it.

 

[crandc]

I don't forgive unless there's an apology that comes with it.

Have to say I agree with Lanny on this one. If someone does a serious injury - I'm not talking about getting to the parking spot first, but a really serious injury - and not only does not apologize, but escalates, for example, by saying it's your fault or you're making it up or I was right to lynch, rape, commit genocide, I honestly don't know what it means to "forgive". I have heard "forgive" from friends who claim Christianity but they can't define it. Does it mean what they did was OK? That the victim is wrong to be angry or hurt? What? Never have gotten an answer. In traditional Judaism the period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is set aside to seek forgiveness of those we have harmed and make amends, because Judaism teaches G-d can't forgive a sin committed against a person until that person forgives. There is also the obligation to forgive anyone who truly repents, but no obligation to forgive those who do not. What if they say "I can grab them by the pussy because I'm a star". The woman has to forgive? Bullshit.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I don't forgive unless there's an apology that comes with it.

I spent a large portion of my teenage years struggling with the concept of forgiveness, specifically of my father. He left my family, left the state, went and started another family, and when they left him and moved across the country, he followed them to Georgia to be near them, with no thought to his original family. I hated him for that for years. Initially, I took the instruction to "forgive as Christ forgave you" to mean exactly what Lanny said--my sins aren't forgiven until I repent, so I had no obligation to forgive my father until he does the same. However, I eventually came to understand that the forgiveness available through Christ is unconditional and immediate, meaning that I needed to be willing and able to offer the same to any who have hurt me, meaning my responsibility was to deal with my feelings of hurt in advance. Continuing to harbor animosity toward him served no purpose but to perpetuate my anger, whereas releasing my anger--even without an apology--freed me from any power that pain had over me.

Long story short, Christ offers forgiveness before we accept it, and in order to forgive the way He does, we need to be willing to offer forgiveness before it is requested.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If someone does a serious injury - I'm not talking about getting to the parking spot first, but a really serious injury - and not only does not apologize, but escalates, for example, by saying it's your fault or you're making it up or I was right to lynch, rape, commit genocide, I honestly don't know what it means to "forgive". I have heard "forgive" from friends who claim Christianity but they can't define it. Does it mean what they did was OK? That the victim is wrong to be angry or hurt? What? Never have gotten an answer.

No, forgiveness does not mean that what the person did was OK. No, it doesn't mean the person is wrong to be hurt. And no, it doesn't mean that the person has to pretend that the offense didn't happen. And no, it doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate consequences for the infraction.

To me, forgiveness involves a release of the anger held toward another, not allowing past hurts to negatively impact your opinion of and responses to that person. And to me, that all starts with a de-escalated self-perspective, like John the Baptist's decree of "He must increase and I must decrease". It's easy to forgive transgressions against me if I am of no great significance, especially in light of my own faults and failures that Christ has already forgiven.

 

[crandc]

Why should I not be angry? To me this sounds like the powerful telling marginalized don't be angry, submit.

The people who did horrible things were telling me exactly what you say, that I am of no significance, I am a failure, therefore they can do horrible things because they can then increase while I decrease, so I should say I forgive you because I am so insignificant? No. Not going to happen.

Rage is debilitating, but anger can be a positive. I am fucking angry about things happening so I can't just "tend my own garden", literally and figuratively. It is anger that kept me from suicide, the original topic of the thread, when I had people telling me straight out I should kill myself. Literally telling me but I was too fucking ornery to do so.

I know when I am REALLY down because I don't feel anger.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Why should I not be angry? To me this sounds like the powerful telling marginalized don't be angry, submit.

The people who did horrible things were telling me exactly what you say, that I am of no significance, I am a failure, therefore they can do horrible things because they can then increase while I decrease, so I should say I forgive you because I am so insignificant? No. Not going to happen.

Rage is debilitating, but anger can be a positive. I am fucking angry about things happening so I can't just "tend my own garden", literally and figuratively. It is anger that kept me from suicide, the original topic of the thread, when I had people telling me straight out I should kill myself. Literally telling me but I was too fucking ornery to do so.

I know when I am REALLY down because I don't feel anger.

Feel free to be angry. I get angry all the time. It is a natural human emotion that has been a large part of increasing our numbers to 7 billion.

Getting angry over Trump saying he COULD grab women by the......that is just plain stupid as far as things to be angry over but it is your choice.

Pruitt wasting our tax dollars on fountain pens or whatever the last thing he was wasting money on is exponentially worse.

Most importantly, you don't have to listen to me or the people who told you to kill yourself. Do what makes you happy. I do and I am happy. Could the world be a better place? Sure it could but people suck.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Why should I not be angry? To me this sounds like the powerful telling marginalized don't be angry, submit.

The people who did horrible things were telling me exactly what you say, that I am of no significance, I am a failure, therefore they can do horrible things because they can then increase while I decrease, so I should say I forgive you because I am so insignificant? No. Not going to happen.

Rage is debilitating, but anger can be a positive. I am fucking angry about things happening so I can't just "tend my own garden", literally and figuratively. It is anger that kept me from suicide, the original topic of the thread, when I had people telling me straight out I should kill myself. Literally telling me but I was too fucking ornery to do so.

I know when I am REALLY down because I don't feel anger.

My eternal significance is not derived from anything earthly, or anything I have done, but because I have been lovingly crafted by the creator of the universe for a purpose for which He designed me. Nothing anyone in my life ever says or does can ever change that fact.

When I talk about viewing myself of no great significance, I'm not talking about seeing myself as worthless, because my worth is innate. I'm talking about placing others' interests above my own. Obviously serving God comes first. When I say "He must increase", I'm talking about the elevation of godly interest ahead of self-interest.

As far as your view of anger is concerned, I don't have a whole lot to say about it--it's simply diametrically opposed to mine. Rather than being powered and motivated by anger, the joy of the Lord is my strength.

 

[MarAzul]

I don't forgive unless there's an apology that comes with it.

Ha! This is an interesting thought!
But it is sort of like committing to do more hard work on a non profit basis.

 

[riverman]

the joy of the Lord is my strength.

I respect that...although it's mythology to me...if it brings you joy..it's a good thing. I was a devout Christian as a young man and my parents were devout atheists...rather than beleaguer the point by debating faith, I'd rather accept theological practice and along the same lines, accept the individuals right to choose not to live. Pro choice. In my view there's no negative consequence....which is why I have a living will in case someone wants to keep my heart beating for decades while I'm a vegetable...pull the plug if it happens rather than tax my family's savings renting a machine to keep me ticking. That could also be considered an act of suicide by me for just having the living will. I'll live with that. Last friend I had that took his own life I had spent over a year trying to help out...in the end..he made his choice..I was pissed at him for a long time afterwards but that was because I felt I'd failed to turn his will to live around...we were supposed to play tennis the morning I found him dead....now, I know it was what he truly wanted.

 

[crandc]

As an atheist, I consider all humans to have equal value, and also consider animals to have value. (Much as I love other animals I would assign lesser value; I eat meat, wear leather, and support medical research.) That means even those I most loathe, deservedly, should not be raped, starved, tortured - even if I think they deserve punishment in prison or by making restitution. It also means we are all (except very young children and those too mentally disabled to be able to make choices) responsible for what we do. I can't do something shitty and then say oh well if I pray god will forgive me and even if the other person has been not just hurt but has had their entire life irreparably damaged, well, they just have to forgive me whether I apologize/atone or not. Maybe one of the reasons why atheists/agnostics are under-represented in prison.

It also means we get one chance and one only. So if I see something that needs doing or fixing on earth I have responsibility to do what I can. I can't say oh well the unjustly harmed, the Salvadoran woman Sessions just sent back to be raped, the children torn from their parents, the homeless, hungry, abused, will get bliss in heaven if they pray the right way. Or that some day G-d will bring the World to Come. Or that the victims deserve it because they didn't pray the right way and will get further punishment after death because of it.

My biggest disagreement with Christianity (aside from the not so minor detail that I'm an atheist) is the notion that god can forgive anything if you have faith. In the most extreme case, and yes I have more than once heard self-identified Christians say this, if Hitler accepted Jesus in his last second on earth he's in heaven. The millions of Jews, Romas, gays, socialist, anarchists, etc he murdered are all burning in hell. Believe it or not this has been said to me as a way to get me to convert. My answer is that when Hitler killed people their misery anyway was over but I am supposed to worship a god who tortures them for eternity? A god who hates Jews worse than Hitler?

Sorry about your friend, riverman, I can see how tough it must be to plan a social engagement with someone and instead they commit suicide - you are not responsible.

 

[MarAzul]

Nothing anyone in my life ever says or does can ever change that fact.

'm talking about placing others' interests above my own.

I'm talking about the elevation of godly interest ahead of self-interest.

Rather than being powered and motivated by anger, the joy of the Lord is my strength.

I admire the truth you relate from your understanding you have gained in learning to be a Christian. I sense you are sincere and believe what you say.

However, I would also like to point out that much of the truths you make, are also simply true from a logical point of view.
Such as;

Perhaps the interest of others that allow you contribute, is the same a godly interests.

Anger is always a burden, very difficult to find a profit in holding anger. There is a profit in forgiveness as it allows you to release the anger you hold, but that doesn't mean, the anger is replace with trust.

 

[H.C.]

It's sad when someone demands they be treated with respect, yet makes the conscious decision to treat others(who are being respectful) with a lack of respect.
It's people like this who will never understand why they're ignored.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

It's sad when someone demands they be treated with respect, yet makes the conscious decision to treat others(who are being respectful) with a lack of respect.
It's people like this who will never understand why they're ignored.

This is why it’s so hard for me to feel bad for the republicans and Trump all whining about how much respect they should get. Did they ever give any of it to Obama or Clinton? The two way street of respect hasn’t been there for a long time and it’s gotten worse and worse Bush didn’t get any respect from the other side either. Republicans whining the Trump isn’t getting respect after actively disrespecting Obama for 8 years is the height of hypocrisy in my book.

 

[MarAzul]

Obama for 8 years is the height of hypocrisy in my book.

I do not see any hypocrisy at all. As a matter of fact, I never use the word.