Religion My priest lectured us about suicide and mental health today

[Further]

If you're Mormon, you can get into heaven after you die. They even baptize the deceased who've never been baptized.

I know, they kept baptizing Jews who died in the holocaust. Shameful.

 

[H.C.]

Christians are only required to forgive other Christians. This was told to me by a wonderful guy and a part time minister that I worked with up at Boeing.

He might've said this, but then like many Preachers/Ministers/Christians/Biblethumpers/etc... He's picking and choosing what in the bible he wants to believe in.

John 10:14 through 16 NKJV I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Matthew 6:9 through 15 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 5:43 through 48 NKJV "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

However there are plenty more verses in which Jesus focuses on the non-believers.
These few were just off the top of my head.

Disclaimer - I do not follow christian teachings. But it's statements like this minister guy which prevents me from interacting with Christians due to their willingness to pick and choose what best fits them at the time.

At the end of the day Christianity says you must not pass judgement onto others, less you be judged.
If you choose to not like that, or not follow that... Well that's on you. & It's between you and God.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

He might've said this, but then like many Preachers/Ministers/Christians/Biblethumpers/etc... He's picking and choosing what in the bible he wants to believe in.

John 10:14 through 16 NKJV I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Matthew 6:9 through 15 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors. 13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. 14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 5:43 through 48 NKJV "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

However there are plenty more verses in which Jesus focuses on the non-believers.
These few were just off the top of my head.

Disclaimer - I do not follow christian teachings. But it's statements like this minister guy which prevents me from interacting with Christians due to their willingness to pick and choose what best fits them at the time.

At the end of the day Christianity says you must not pass judgement onto others, less you be judged.
If you choose to not like that, or not follow that... Well that's on you. & It's between you and God.

So what you're saying is Christians are like Rockets fans and the bible is like the rule book and they choose any section that excuses Harden's flopping. Got it

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

I think the problem is we are NOT taught to be self-reliant and self-determinant. We don't have total control over our lives; accident of birth (nationality, social class, gender), disabilities or special abilities, family support or lack thereof, there are a host of things we really can't control. In the past people couldn't understand or control even the most basic aspects of life or nature so they needed gods to make lightning, explain birth and death, etc. I see no need. You can't argue morality; unless you want to say the Westboro Baptist Church is more moral than Einstein, an agnostic Jew!

Maybe they are.... Or maybe it is a tie. Just came across this. Maybe it is fake

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jun/12/einsteins-travel-diaries-reveal-shocking-xenophobia

 

[crandc]

Just read a study that only about half of suicides relate to depression, the rest more due to social causes.

Anyway - I think we just may have to agree to disagree. I get that Platypus is sincere, but, no offense, the ideas sound loony to me. Don't be angry over horrible things done to me, my loved ones, the world as a whole because Jesus suffered and said forgive them, allegedly? (Still no answer on whether god did forgive, or where Pilate & Judas are spending eternity.)

Everyone has the right to their own beliefs and to try and live by their beliefs. My objection is when religious people, or people simply pretending to be religious for political purposes, want to make me live by their beliefs.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Although I still think actions are what’s important in life, I really appreciate the part I bolded. I never thought of it that way exactly.

Still doesn’t answer the part where flawed but accepts Christ gets in yet virtuous with far fewer flaws but no acceptance of Christ still excluded.

Well, to state it as simply as I can, all you need to do is believe and ask.

As to the degree of good versus bad, it is not relevant. All men are sinners and without Gods grace are lost.

 

[MarAzul]

As to the degree of good versus bad, it is not relevant. All men are sinners and without Gods grace are lost.

Ha!
I think we find the first time we disagree. While I know you are sincere and you are speaking the Christian way, this is hard bridge to cross for many people. It is illogical!
Too bad to because the great good Christianity is, could be greater with more Christians taught the goodness of Christianity. This road block is unnecessary to preach, even though I do believe
it is partially true. Holiness can not be earned, but then forgiveness to the ultimate most extreme test is over the top. This is an unnecessary test, it is simply a Faith test.
I can't do it, too many others can't either. Pretty silly to be excluding these people. Rather like asking Trump to not accept the votes of people the Democrats hate.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Ha!
I think we find the first time we disagree. While I know you are sincere and you are speaking the Christian way, this is hard bridge to cross for many people. It is illogical!
Too bad to because the great good Christianity is, could be greater with more Christians taught the goodness of Christianity. This road block is necessary to preach, even though I do believe
it is partially true. Holiness can not be earned, but then forgiveness to the ultimate most extreme test is over the top. This is an unnecessary test, it is simply a Faith test.
I can't do it, too many others can't either. Pretty silly to be excluding these people. Rather like asking Trump to not accept the votes of people the Democrats hate.

Yeah, I get it. Common argument. Man would rather create a "God" that allows for their behavior.

Fortunately, I do not have to make these distinctions on my own. The entire New Testament is based upon the belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and that only through him are we allowed grace. This is the basic division between Christians and Jews.

 

[Lanny]

I know, they kept baptizing Jews who died in the holocaust. Shameful.

I don't see any way that it's shameful. After all, it does show that they care about other human beings. And what's the harm to the Jews? None from their perspective.

 

[crandc]

I don't see any way that it's shameful. After all, it does show that they care about other human beings. And what's the harm to the Jews? None from their perspective.

Desecrates the memory of those murdered because they were Jews to make them supposedly Christian against their will.

If you care about others feed the hungry.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

While I know you are sincere and you are speaking the Christian way, this is hard bridge to cross for many people. It is illogical! Too bad to because the great good Christianity is, could be greater with more Christians taught the goodness of Christianity. This road block is unnecessary to preach, even though I do believe it is partially true. Holiness can not be earned, but then forgiveness to the ultimate most extreme test is over the top. This is an unnecessary test, it is simply a Faith test. I can't do it, too many others can't either. Pretty silly to be excluding these people.

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you here. I mean, talk about illogical--you're basically saying that there are people who would acknowledge the existence of God, the saving work of Christ, the need for His provision for their salvation...but then they stop short of accepting the free gift of grace because the New Testament portrays God ass too forgiving?

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Anyone who says that is just making excuses.

 

[Lanny]

I'm sorry, I can't agree with you here. I mean, talk about illogical--you're basically saying that there are people who would acknowledge the existence of God, the saving work of Christ, the need for His provision for their salvation...but then they stop short of accepting the free gift of grace because the New Testament portrays God ass too forgiving?

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Anyone who says that is just making excuses.

It appears that you are replying to my topic post and if that is correct, your response does not make sense? Were you replying to someone else?

 

[MarAzul]

Man would rather create a "God" that allows for their behavior.

>>>Well I can see right here that you firmly believe you are absolutely in the right. I think I should leave you your place.

Yeah, I get it. Common argument.

>>> Well it not quite the message I was trying to communicate, But I see it is your take, same as @PtldPlatypus .

The entire New Testament is based upon the belief that Jesus is the Son of God, and that only through him are we allowed grace.

>>> No it is not! If it were I would question the how the religion attracted so many. There is much good taught by Jesus in the NT, that is desirable to be taught event today. To grasp this good does not require a man to believe Jesus is God, or the Son of God. No man that is still is a work in progress, can logically be required to have this faith.

This is the basic division between Christians and Jews.

>>> Oh man! Not true at all. The entire contradictions between the teachings of the NT verses the Torah is almost the essence of the work of Jesus. In fairness, I do see why your emphases is the other way around. And this difference in emphases is at the root of my objection to the preachers of Christianity. You do not sell the good of Jesus, you require like kind commitment of like kind faith.

Fortunately, I do not have to make these distinctions on my own.

Yes I know, you are not alone at all. Perhaps I am, but I doubt it. Perhaps some of us mere men, can only go part way.
I in no way intend this to be a criticism of Christianity. More like a criticism of tactics, teach the good to us dummies, not perfect faith. We do not all need a pathway to heaven, just a good life will due. It is a hell of a start in finding the Roman road.

 

[MarAzul]

Anyone who says that is just making excuses.

I know you are sincere. So I forgive you.

 

[Lanny]

Desecrates the memory of those murdered because they were Jews to make them supposedly Christian against their will.

If you care about others feed the hungry.

Nothing is done against the will of the Jews. They wouldn't even know about it until the after life if the Mormons were correct and I'm not saying they are.

If they spoke ill of the Jews I could see your point about desecrating, but quite the opposite, they revere the Jews. How do I know this? My next door neighbors for three years were Mormons and tried their best to convert me. I've even read the book of Mormon.

No, I don't subscribe to that sect but I do recognize them as good and decent human beings.

As for doing for others like feeding the hungry, I've declared that I do that through my church upteen times already.

 

[Further]

While I understand you are explaining the Christian ethos I do think degrees matter. Sure all men are flawed. But where one person might hurl an insult and another might kill, those distinctions matter and completely differentiate ones badness. For both to have the same option for forgiveness and redemption is inappropriate in my opinion.

 

[Further]

Nothing is done against the will of the Jews. They wouldn't even know about it until the after life if the Mormons were correct and I'm not saying they are.

If they spoke ill of the Jews I could see your point about desecrating, but quite the opposite, they revere the Jews. How do I know this? My next door neighbors for three years were Mormons and tried their best to convert me. I've even read the book of Mormon.

No, I don't subscribe to that sect but I do recognize them as good and decent human beings.

As for doing for others like feeding the hungry, I've declared that I do that through my church upteen times already.

These are people who died for their religion and the Mormans are tossing that in the trash. They might mean well but it is wrong. Especially since many have asked time and time again for our last wishes to be respected. It is very disrespectful towards Judaism.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

It appears that you are replying to my topic post and if that is correct, your response does not make sense? Were you replying to someone else?

I was replying to Marazul, whom I quoted.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Where one person might hurl an insult and another might kill, those distinctions matter and completely differentiate ones badness.

But that is an earthly perspective. Jesus essentially equated insults with murder in the eyes of God in Matthew 5:21-22. This again is where the Christian must subordinate his own logic to that of God.

 

[Further]

But that is an earthly perspective. Jesus essentially equated insults with murder in the eyes of God in Matthew 5:21-22. This again is where the Christian must subordinate his own logic to that of God.

And I am glad you receive peace and happiness from this. But I could not willingly subordinate my logic. My mind is who I am. It is through my logic I try to be good, thoughtful and a benefit to society. I find the concept of willingly disregarding logic to be very wrong and detrimental to this world.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

And I am glad you receive peace and happiness from this. But I could not willingly subordinate my logic. My mind is who I am. It is through my logic I try to be good, thoughtful and a benefit to society. I find the concept of willingly disregarding logic to be very wrong and detrimental to this world.

Disregarding and subordinating are two very different things. My child may have logic behind his choices, but it's going to be on balance inferior to my own. Therefore my expectation for him, absent the ability to necessarily grasp my logic, is to at least subordinate to it. By the same token, I'm willing to acknowledge that while I have logic behind my own conclusions, an omniscient creator would have logic that surpasses mine. If I am going to acknowledge the existence and supremacy of such a being, it would be foolish of me--logically--to presume my logic to be superior to His.

I wouldn't expect someone who does not believe in the existence of an omniscient deity to see value in subordinating to the logic of such. But surely you can understand how, given the base condition of faith in said deity, subordination thereto must logically follow.

 

[H.C.]

This topic has generated into a discussion about why the christian bible says x.
Man can't see a little white lie being equal to someone who murders another human.
Again this comes back to the human nature of passing judgement on others. Or even competitiveness. ex.'I might've done x which is bad, but this person did x which is worse. Therefore I'm better than them.'
The christian bible states. Even one sin will keep you from getting to god. Therefore any acts you do in this life won't be enough. Only through Jesus may you be accepted.

You can continually ask why it says this and people can continually give you the answer of.
Christians aren't allowed to judge others as there is only one judge.
You then can either choose to accept that answer.
Or
You can choose to continually not like that answer and repeat yourself until you're blue in the face.... Like many of you do on other topics.

But those are your decisions. Just like it's others decisions to use the ignore feature on this site.

 

[Further]

Disregarding and subordinating are two very different things. My child may have logic behind his choices, but it's going to be on balance inferior to my own. Therefore my expectation for him, absent the ability to necessarily grasp my logic, is to at least subordinate to it. By the same token, I'm willing to acknowledge that while I have logic behind my own conclusions, an omniscient creator would have logic that surpasses mine. If I am going to acknowledge the existence and supremacy of such a being, it would be foolish of me--logically--to presume my logic to be superior to His.

I wouldn't expect someone who does not believe in the existence of an omniscient deity to see value in subordinating to the logic of such. But surely you can understand how, given the base condition of faith in said deity, subordination thereto must logically follow.

Excellent response and given the belief in God I see your view makes sense.

My worry is not that you with your view of god, does bad in the name of subordinating ones logic, but I’m sure you do see that there are many religions, sects, and beliefs in what god instructs. This can be extremely dangerous.

 

[Further]

I wouldn't expect someone who does not believe in the existence of an omniscient deity to see value in subordinating to the logic of such. But surely you can understand how, given the base condition of faith in said deity, subordination thereto must logically follow.

Another problem with subordinating ones logic is that as soon as you are willing to do so the religion or god you have chosen becomes right regardless. And in most cases that religion or god is applied at such a young age that logic is never used to ascertain if the core t faith is at hand.

If you are then born into a faith that promotes the killing of apostates, gays or the subjugation of women then ipso facto that is logical to your god and any inkling that it is not is disregarded as mans flaw to question.

 

[Further]

@PtldPlatypus thank you for the conversation. I’m not trying to convince you, I’m just thinking through the topic with you. It’s wonderful to have a calm counterpart to discuss these topics. I mean no insult, you believe and I don’t. The love of my life believes and I don’t have these discussions with her because it’s important that she never feel disapproval from me and even if unintended I don’t want to mistakenly step on her relationship with Jesus.

 

[MarAzul]

I wouldn't expect someone who does not believe in the existence of an omniscient deity to see value in subordinating to the logic of such. But surely you can understand how, given the base condition of faith in said deity, subordination thereto must logically follow.

I believe I fully understand your position. While I can not accept it as my own, and I do not think it is anything close to an excuse, I have no desire or intention of attempting to convince you any differently. I am even please you are please with your view. Christians of good deeds and at peace with where they are, are admirable.

I do not view God as a being of any description that requires us to subjugate our mind to his will, God is how we are here, doing as we do, seeking to improve as a work in progress.
Improvement comes as Jesus taught in actions. While holiness can not be earned, improvement is the goal, ever the goal. Perfection in the ultimate faith is beyond men, perhaps Jesus did this for all of us, but not as the easy out.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

@PtldPlatypus thank you for the conversation. I’m not trying to convince you, I’m just thinking through the topic with you. It’s wonderful to have a calm counterpart to discuss these topics. I mean no insult, you believe and I don’t. The love of my life believes and I don’t have these discussions with her because it’s important that she never feel disapproval from me and even if unintended I don’t want to mistakenly step on her relationship with Jesus.

I find no insult in anything you've said; I fully understand the objections, and honestly it is valuable to me to hear them and formulate a reasoned response.

I'm glad that you have enough respect for your fiancee to be as sensitive as you are to her spirituality, despite your differences. If discussing these things with me helps to promote harmony in your relationship with her, and perhaps even foster a greater understanding of her perspective (assuming it aligns somewhat with my own), then I'm glad to be of service.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[Lanny]

These are people who died for their religion and the Mormans are tossing that in the trash. They might mean well but it is wrong. Especially since many have asked time and time again for our last wishes to be respected. It is very disrespectful towards Judaism.

What are they tossing in trash? Huh? That part baffles me.

The Jews that don't believe in that sect of Christianity don't even have to acknowledge it. Also, it's not even meant as a disdain. I don't even care if they baptize me which they might want to do since I was baptized in another sect of Christianity. Why should I care? You might even cuss me in the privacy of your own home. Why would I care?

I've never heard a Jew express any discontent with this practice.

Similarly some people have said that homosexuals marrying one another denigrates the institution of marriage. But me and my wife find that it doesn't affect us at all. Why should we care? Besides, our church accepts homosexual priests, i.e. the same church as the Bush family attends. LBJ belonged to the same church. Okay, I'm getting off track.

 

[Lanny]

I find no insult in anything you've said; I fully understand the objections, and honestly it is valuable to me to hear them and formulate a reasoned response.

I'm glad that you have enough respect for your fiancee to be as sensitive as you are to her spirituality, despite your differences. If discussing these things with me helps to promote harmony in your relationship with her, and perhaps even foster a greater understanding of her perspective (assuming it aligns somewhat with my own), then I'm glad to be of service.

What? Me and Marzy agreeing on something? Where's my diary.