Religion My priest lectured us about suicide and mental health today

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I do not see any hypocrisy at all. As a matter of fact, I never use the word.

You just used the word.

 

[MarAzul]

You just used the word.

Ha!
Not as a description.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Ha!
Not as a description.

I don’t know why this actually made me laugh .

 

[Further]

I don’t like the idea of consequences resting on belief versus being a result of actions. That’s why I don’t like faith as a determinant. I think it’s the biggest flaw of Christianity. Accept Jesus and be saved instead of live a life Jesus would approve of and then be saved. Actions are what counts.

Going back to Hitler. If he accepted Jesus he would be saved even though his actions were despicable while millions of his victims actions in life may have been virtuous yet without their acceptance they are doomed to misery.

Makes no sense to me and is a flaw that should chase people away from Christianity.

 

[MarAzul]

I think it’s the biggest flaw of Christianity. Accept Jesus and be saved instead of live a life Jesus would approve of and then be saved.

>> I agree with your take.

If he accepted Jesus he would be saved even though his actions were despicable while millions of his victims actions in life may have been virtuous yet without their acceptance they are doomed to misery.

>>> I agree with your take.

Makes no sense to me

>>> Right on!

is a flaw that should chase people away from Christianity.

>>>Maybe not! Perhaps the good teachings out weigh the nonsense.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I don’t like the idea of consequences resting on belief versus being a result of actions. That’s why I don’t like faith as a determinant. I think it’s the biggest flaw of Christianity. Accept Jesus and be saved instead of live a life Jesus would approve of and then be saved. Actions are what counts.

Going back to Hitler. If he accepted Jesus he would be saved even though his actions were despicable while millions of his victims actions in life may have been virtuous yet without their acceptance they are doomed to misery.

Makes no sense to me and is a flaw that should chase people away from Christianity.

The problem with this is the notion that holiness is something that can be earned. The whole concept of salvation by faith rests in dependence upon God. We are raised to be self-reliant and self-determinant, so by nature, we want to be in control of our ultimate destination. In essence, we don't want God to be necessary. That desire--to make our own actions, and thereby our own selves, more important than God--is steeped and rooted in the very rebellion that led to the fall in the first place.

I understand the reasoning behind not liking the notion of salvation by faith, but I also understand from a Biblical perspective why it makes perfect sense.

 

[MarAzul]

I also understand from a Biblical perspective why it makes perfect sense.

I understand the merit to your view. But you can see the absurdity when taken to the extreme. So there must be a middle ground that at least avoids absurd.

 

[crandc]

I think the problem is we are NOT taught to be self-reliant and self-determinant. We don't have total control over our lives; accident of birth (nationality, social class, gender), disabilities or special abilities, family support or lack thereof, there are a host of things we really can't control. In the past people couldn't understand or control even the most basic aspects of life or nature so they needed gods to make lightning, explain birth and death, etc. I see no need. You can't argue morality; unless you want to say the Westboro Baptist Church is more moral than Einstein, an agnostic Jew!

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I understand the merit to your view. But you can see the absurdity when taken to the extreme. So there must be a middle ground that at least avoids absurd.

Not surprisingly, the Bible addresses that too. 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.

 

[MarAzul]

You can't argue morality; unless you want to say the Westboro Baptist Church is more moral than Einstein, an agnostic Jew!

Read this, and then again. I can not find a meaning, let alone a point.

 

[MarAzul]

Not surprisingly, the Bible addresses that too. 1 Corinthians 1:18-25.

Ah! I see. I also see this is not the teachings of Jesus, but the teachings of one of his disciples. The sort of thing you say when short a logical true answer.
Well sir. I am afraid that the Jew I agreed with and this old Gentile still agree. However, I still believe the teachings Jesus were indeed worth a great deal to men. Not always true or truthful of those that try to sell his worth or use his fame. Indeed not always helpful. That said, you have been most often helpful, perhaps one miss is one me too.

 

[Further]

The problem with this is the notion that holiness is something that can be earned. The whole concept of salvation by faith rests in dependence upon God. We are raised to be self-reliant and self-determinant, so by nature, we want to be in control of our ultimate destination. In essence, we don't want God to be necessary. That desire--to make our own actions, and thereby our own selves, more important than God--is steeped and rooted in the very rebellion that led to the fall in the first place.

I understand the reasoning behind not liking the notion of salvation by faith, but I also understand from a Biblical perspective why it makes perfect sense.

I am atheist leaning but of Jewish heritage. In Judaism there are 613 mitzvots or laws. To be a good Jew you must follow those mitzvots. In other words, your actions matter. You can not believe in g-d but as long as your actions align with those 613 mitzvots you would be considered a good Jew as long as your mother was Jewish.

I don’t follow those laws and find many of them to be silly or wrong, but I do like the idea that ones actions are what counts.

 

[Further]

>> I agree with your take.



>>> I agree with your take.



>>> Right on!



>>>Maybe not! Perhaps the good teachings out weigh the nonsense.

But those good teachings only count if they affect actions. If you believe in Christ’s teachings but molest children then I could give a shit about ones beliefs and don’t think that person should ever be absolved

 

[MarAzul]

I am atheist leaning but of Jewish heritage. In Judaism there are 613 mitzvots or laws. To be a good Jew you must follow those mitzvots. In other words, your actions matter. You can not believe in g-d but as long as your actions align with those 613 mitzvots you would be considered a good Jew as long as your mother was Jewish.

I don’t follow those laws and find many of them to be silly or wrong, but I do like the idea that ones actions are what counts.

If you believe in Christ’s teachings but molest children then I could give a shit about ones beliefs

Really!
What exactly can I help you with? I can't quite make out why you made the post.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

But those good teachings only count if they affect actions. If you believe in Christ’s teachings but molest children then I could give a shit about ones beliefs and don’t think that person should ever be absolved

Well sure, faith and works must align. NT says as much, "Faith without works is dead." A superficial faith not supported by a godly life borne of that faith is no faith at all. But the actions don't justify a person, they are simply evidence of a genuine faith.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I am atheist leaning but of Jewish heritage. In Judaism there are 613 mitzvots or laws. To be a good Jew you must follow those mitzvots. In other words, your actions matter. You can not believe in g-d but as long as your actions align with those 613 mitzvots you would be considered a good Jew as long as your mother was Jewish.

I don’t follow those laws and find many of them to be silly or wrong, but I do like the idea that ones actions are what counts.

Understood. I look more at how Jesus responded to the Scribes, Pharisees, and Sadducees, denouncing their works-based lives based on their self-interested heart condition, saying of them, "They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

 

[Further]

Really!
What exactly can I help you with? I can't quite make out why you made the post.

I do not understand what your question is.

I simply believe that a person is good or bad based on their actions and not their beliefs or their religion. I also dont like the concept of forgiveness through faith because that sends the wrong message, that one can always be absolved. There are some actions that can never be forgiven.

 

[Further]

Well sure, faith and works must align. NT says as much, "Faith without works is dead." A superficial faith not supported by a godly life borne of that faith is no faith at all. But the actions don't justify a person, they are simply evidence of a genuine faith.

So how would you view this: a man molests a child for years. He then repents, accepts Jesus and does not molest again. Should he be forgiven? Will he go to heaven?

 

[MarAzul]

I do not understand what your question is.

I simply believe that a person is good or bad based on their actions and not their beliefs or their religion. I also dont like the concept of forgiveness through faith because that sends the wrong message, that one can always be absolved. There are some actions that can never be forgiven.

I am pretty sure I agreed with you several post back.
I also agree with PltPlatyPus that you can't quite earn status here.

What bothers me is we are indeed on the edge what is required to be a Christian in the mind of some people and it does seem to require mindless adherence in the view of a few.
This seems to me to be an necessary distraction from the rightfully good teaches of Jesus. Absurd even to consider Hitler's possible salvation or your molesting children remark.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So how would you view this: a man molests a child for years. He then repents, accepts Jesus and does not molest again. Should he be forgiven? Will he go to heaven?

My understanding of scripture is that in the eyes of God, sin is sin. A single sin is sufficient to separate us from God eternally. But Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover innumerable sins for innumerable people. I believe it would be arrogant of me to put a limit on God's capacity to love and forgive His creation.

So to answer your question, yes, I believe that God can forgive a lifetime of sin, however egregious it may be. And I don't view limitless capacity for forgiveness as a flaw.

 

[MarAzul]

Should he be forgiven?

Forgiven must not include being trusted. There it he can not be granted normal status of citizen, forget about heaven, but then that is not in the hands of men.

 

[Further]

I am pretty sure I agreed with you several post back.
I also agree with PltPlatyPus that you can't quite earn status here.

What bothers me is we are indeed on the edge what is required to be a Christian in the mind of some people and it does seem to require mindless adherence in the view of a few.
This seems to me to be an necessary distraction from the rightfully good teaches of Jesus. Absurd even to consider Hitler's possible salvation or your molesting children remark.

The Hitler or molester remarks are as a demonstration. In accordance with Christianity they would receive absolution if they accepted Christ into their hearts. Bringing them up helps to elucidate the issue of forgiveness within and without Christianity.

As far as the teachings of Christ, I agree that they are on a whole very good. Too bad so many who espouse their Christianity don’t actually adhere to the teachings of Christ and instead follow the guidance of their churches who are often far from the actual teachings.

 

[Further]

My understanding of scripture is that in the eyes of God, sin is sin. A single sin is sufficient to separate us from God eternally. But Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to cover innumerable sins for innumerable people. I believe it would be arrogant of me to put a limit on God's capacity to love and forgive His creation.

So to answer your question, yes, I believe that God can forgive a lifetime of sin, however egregious it may be. And I don't view limitless capacity for forgiveness as a flaw.

Thank you for your response. What about you and not god, would you forgive if it happened to a loved one? Is it your duty to forgive? I have heard conflicting answers to that.

 

[crandc]

Here's my question. Christian theology claims that Jesus, while dying in torment, said "Father forgive them, they know not what they do".

If they HAD known, would they still be forgiven?

Are Judas and Pontius Pilate forgiven? By God? By Jesus? Are they in heaven or in hell?

Now, I don't accept any of this as fact, but assume for the sake of argument. If Hitler can be forgiven (but not those he murdered because they were not Christian), can Judas and Pilate? Are Hitler, Judas, and Pilate all in heaven?

Got to say, the more I hear, the gladder I am to imagine with John Lennon, no heaven, no hell below us.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Thank you for your response. What about you and not god, would you forgive if it happened to a loved one? Is it your duty to forgive? I have heard conflicting answers to that.

I think it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, but yes I believe that God calls us to forgive all who transgress against us. Jesus' parable of the unmerciful servant spells that out pretty clearly to me: I have been forgiven by God a debt far greater than I would ever have the capacity to repay, so who am I to withhold forgiveness from another? Or to look at it from another angle, if a perfect and holy God is willing to offer forgiveness to this person, why should my standards be higher than His when my position is so much lower?

I understand this is not a popular position; I have been excoriated in the past by others for my willingness to forgive the seemingly unforgivable, but I believe in my heart that it is the position the Bible calls us to take.

 

[Further]

I think it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, but yes I believe that God calls us to forgive all who transgress against us. Jesus' parable of the unmerciful servant spells that out pretty clearly to me: I have been forgiven by God a debt far greater than I would ever have the capacity to repay, so who am I to withhold forgiveness from another? Or to look at it from another angle, if a perfect and holy God is willing to offer forgiveness to this person, why should my standards be higher than His when my position is so much lower?

I understand this is not a popular position; I have been excoriated in the past by others for my willingness to forgive the seemingly unforgivable, but I believe in my heart that it is the position the Bible calls us to take.

My lovely fiancé is Christian and to her forgiveness has meant a lot and helped her towards healing from some massive wrongs she had suffered. I look at that as the good side of forgiveness. I would have never been able to forgive the people she has forgiven and in fact I daydream occasionally about removing them from mankind. I would never do such a thing, but actual forgiveness seems impossible from my eyes.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

I don’t like the idea of consequences resting on belief versus being a result of actions. That’s why I don’t like faith as a determinant. I think it’s the biggest flaw of Christianity. Accept Jesus and be saved instead of live a life Jesus would approve of and then be saved. Actions are what counts.

Going back to Hitler. If he accepted Jesus he would be saved even though his actions were despicable while millions of his victims actions in life may have been virtuous yet without their acceptance they are doomed to misery.

Makes no sense to me and is a flaw that should chase people away from Christianity.

Ahh, man. There are others that can say this better, but here goes. This belief that we ask to be forgiven, and by grace alone are allowed into his kingdom, is the entire premise of being a Christian. All men are flawed, and none can earn their way into heaven. By our actions, no one is worthy.

Christianity is the only religious doctrine that one does not "earn" his way, rather one becomes a work in progress.

 

[Further]

Ahh, man. There are others that can say this better, but here goes. This belief that we ask to be forgiven, and by grace alone are allowed into his kingdom, is the entire premise of being a Christian. All men are flawed, and none can earn their way into heaven. By our actions, no one is worthy.

Christianity is the only religious doctrine that one does not "earn" his way, rather one becomes a work in progress.

Although I still think actions are what’s important in life, I really appreciate the part I bolded. I never thought of it that way exactly.

Still doesn’t answer the part where flawed but accepts Christ gets in yet virtuous with far fewer flaws but no acceptance of Christ still excluded.

 

[Lanny]

Have to say I agree with Lanny on this one. If someone does a serious injury - I'm not talking about getting to the parking spot first, but a really serious injury - and not only does not apologize, but escalates, for example, by saying it's your fault or you're making it up or I was right to lynch, rape, commit genocide, I honestly don't know what it means to "forgive". I have heard "forgive" from friends who claim Christianity but they can't define it. Does it mean what they did was OK? That the victim is wrong to be angry or hurt? What? Never have gotten an answer. In traditional Judaism the period between Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur is set aside to seek forgiveness of those we have harmed and make amends, because Judaism teaches G-d can't forgive a sin committed against a person until that person forgives. There is also the obligation to forgive anyone who truly repents, but no obligation to forgive those who do not. What if they say "I can grab them by the pussy because I'm a star". The woman has to forgive? Bullshit.

Christians are only required to forgive other Christians. This was told to me by a wonderful guy and a part time minister that I worked with up at Boeing.

 

[Lanny]

Although I still think actions are what’s important in life, I really appreciate the part I bolded. I never thought of it that way exactly.

Still doesn’t answer the part where flawed but accepts Christ gets in yet virtuous with far fewer flaws but no acceptance of Christ still excluded.

If you're Mormon, you can get into heaven after you die. They even baptize the deceased who've never been baptized.