My Zach Collins thoughts

[Reep]

My thoughts on summer league. Not a huge deal, but he hasn't been very good

How would you say he has done on the defensive end? I agree the offense end has been painful.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I'm not worried. I said on draft night he might not even crack the rotation until near the end of his rookie season. This is not unusual at all for a 10th pick in the draft. Most lottery picks get significant playing time simply because they are drafted by crappy teams. When a lottery pick ends up on a playoff team via trade, he usually gets less PT as a rookie.

Hell, LaMarcus Aldridge was picked 2nd in the draft, but didn't start seeing regular minutes until after the trade deadline his rookie year - when the team finally stopped showcasing former all star Jamal Magloire. Aldridge was buried behind Magloire and Przybilla at center and Zach Randolph and Travis Outlaw at power forward.

C.J. was also a 1oth pick and a 4-year college player, but didn't become part of the regular rotation until the end of his second season when both Wes Matthews and Aron Afflallo were both injured.

Here are the #10 picks since 2010:

2010 - Paul George
2011 - Jimmer Freddette
2012 - Austin Rivers
2013 - C.J. McCollum
2014 - Elfrid Payton
2015 - Justice Winslow
2016 - Thon Maker

Not one of those players averaged in double figures as a rookie. Payton averaged the most points (8.9) and the most minutes. George was second in scoring at 7.4 ppg. He is clearly the best recent #10 pick, but did not crack the starting line up until March 9 of his rookie season. Rivers and Winslow both played big minutes as rookies, but only averaged 6.4 ad 6.2 ppg.

Expecting any #10 pick to have a significant impact as a rookie is unrealistic based on recent history. If you go back 20 years there have been some very good players selected at #10 (Joe Johnson, Jason Terry), but only a few have had a significant impact their rookie year (Paul Pierce, Brook Lopez).

Collins is young and inexperienced compared to most other #10 picks. If you set your expectations inline with the historical performance of #10 picks, I think you'll be a lot less disappointed.

BNM

Why would you do that? Not all drafts are the same. This has been touted as one if the best drafts in recent history. Our GM went up to get a specific player he targeted. Completely different

 

[Mediocre Man]

How would you say he has done on the defensive end? I agree the offense end has been painful.

He's pretty good inside. He swings at the ball too much, but he seems to have good interior defensive insticts. His perimter defense is ok, but needs work.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I'm starting to think this is a huge problem for the Pat C and Jake Laymans of the NBA. It's mental because they know they can shoot lights out in practice but they have to make them in the games to stick in the league or get playing time.

You know they have the form but they have the yips.

Pat actually shoots better in real games than this summer league rat ball nonsense. He can't create his own shots, but playing next to Lillard and McCollum, or even Napier, he gets his shots in the flow of the offense and knocks them down. Some guys just play much better in a structured environment. Pat seems to be one of those guys.

Layman, on the other hand, looks like Victor Claver 2.0. Looks like a basketball player, supposedly a great shooter in practice, but can't hit shit in a game - any game. Other than his miracle first 8 minutes, he has shot like shit in garbage time, in the D League and now the summer league. Even if you include his 6-8 debut he shot .255 3FG% as a rookie. Other than that one first game, since Nov. 1 last year he has shot:

NBA:
8 for 44 3FG
.182 3FG%

D League:
12 for 53 3FG
.226 3FG%

Summer League:
2 for 11 3FG
.182 3FG%

Total:
22 for 108 3FG
.204 3FG%

And it's not like he hasn't had his chances. He shoots early and often, he has good form and appears to shoot with confidence - he certainly doesn't hesitate. The ball just does't go in the basket.

BNM

 

[Natebishop3]

He's pretty good inside. He swings at the ball too much, but he seems to have good interior defensive insticts. His perimter defense is ok, but needs work.

You gonna ignore my stats?

 

[Natebishop3]

How about the fact that he shot 48% from 3 at Gonzaga? The video isn't some fluke - the dude can shoot.

BTW, I haven't been to an NBA practice, but I've seen NBA players pregame shootarounds - nobody, not even Lillard and McCollum, are shooting 92% unguarded in those situations.

Keepin' it classy for 53 years, frying pan.

Again, I'm not saying that he can't shoot. I'm saying, as a rule of thumb, it's not a good idea to use shooting in practice as a measuring stick. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Why would you do that? Not all drafts are the same. This has been touted as one if the best drafts in recent history. Our GM went up to get a specific player he targeted. Completely different

There have been other deep drafts in the last 20 years, but very few #10 picks, regardless of draft depth, have had a significant impact as NBA rookies.

Collins was not drafted to be a difference maker this year. He is young and inexperienced even compared to other #10 picks.

Why would you, or anyone else, judge him after two summer league games?

BNM

 

[dviss1]

It doesn't mean ANYTHING? ANYTHING? Surely, it must mean SOMETHING. Is this what "going full retard" means?

How about this: let's have a challenge.
I'll give you 24 hours to find pre-draft videos of Victor Claver and Sebastian Telfair shooting anywhere near 56/61 in practice, half of which are 3s, and I'll add "I am Natebishop3s Bitch" in my sig for a month. If you can't, I'll add "Natebishop3 went full retard on me" in my sig for a month.

Agree?

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Again, I'm not saying that he can't shoot. I'm saying, as a rule of thumb, it's not a good idea to use shooting in practice as a measuring stick. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you mean, it's not a good idea to use shooting in practice as YOUR ONLY measuring stick, I agree.
It not, I don't. Simple.

 

[Trackjack]

Olshey drafted him for his defense and so far he hasn't disappoint and when get stronger he will be really good anchor behind Nurk.

 

[Mediocre Man]

You gonna ignore my stats?

No.

 

[Mediocre Man]

There have been other deep drafts in the last 20 years, but very few #10 picks, regardless of draft depth, have had a significant impact as NBA rookies.

Collins was not drafted to be a difference maker this year. He is young and inexperienced even compared to other #10 picks.

Why would you, or anyone else, judge him after two summer league games?

BNM

Because I am a FANatic, and that's all I have to go by. Other bigs have looked very good. He hasn't offensively, and his body language sucks.

 

[Blazers Roy]

Is it still too early for me to cry about not drafting Monk?

 

[BBert]

Is it still too early for me to cry about not drafting Monk?

Yes. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

He's 19

Batum was 19 in his first SPL and he stunk it up most heinously - played himself into the starting SF (during fall camp) by opening night.

 

[Boob-No-More]

He's 19

Batum was 19 in his first SPL and he stunk it up most heinously - played himself into the starting SF (during fall camp) by opening night.

Yep, and Qyntel Woods was a summer league stud.

Players like Batum (and Collins) do much better in a structured environment. Players like Woods excel at rat ball.

KAT looked like shit in summer league, but won ROY.

Summer League Bayless looked a lot more like Real Russel Westbrook than Summer League Westbrook did.

Randy Foye, Adam Morrison, Jeremy Lamb and Kris Dunn all looked better in summer league than Steph Curry did.

I could go on. There are literally over 100 examples of why summer league stats are less than meaningless.

Everyone at least seems to agree that Collins looks to have good potential on the defensive side off the ball.

Offensively, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he will look better once:

• He's playing with real guards who can get him the ball in a position to score
• He is playing with teammates that can make a wide open shot that will help space the floor
• He's playing in a structured offense that actually runs some plays
• He gets more playing time under his belt to adjust to the faster pace and stronger, more athletic competition
• He stops pressing and realizes it's an 82-game schedule

BNM

 

[Blazinaway]

Is it still too early for me to cry about not drafting Monk?

or semi or bolden?

 

[Sinobas]

Jumpin' the gun a bit? To be clear, this is not only directed towards u but anyone else that's already "given up" on OUR guys ALREADY? Do the answers to the following really need to b spelled out (WE ALL know the answers to the following questions, & YES I AM including u & the others I was referring to here Many posts by others have spelled out the following & then some)?

Is summer league for bigs?
Have all players that have played well in SL gone on to b superstars?
Have all those that have played poorly in SL gone on to b busts?
How old are Collins & Swanigan ESPECIALLY how old are they vs. THE bigs u are referring to?
Etc.

PATIENCE! I'm not pleased w/ both our rooks performances so far BUT I'm actually not disappointed either; I like the fact that they r getting run/experience (THIS is all I care about w/ SL ) regardless of play. I never take too much stock in how a player plays in SL w/ the exception of Tatum. Tatum shows u things that aren't about SL (granted he's posting some nice #'s), it's how he handles himself on/off court, personality, poise, footwork, etc. MOST players are NOT Tatum; w/ what I've seen of our guys before they even played in SL, I KNEW they weren't Tatum or even close, so however they played/what they've shown/will show in SL, these are just stepping stones & we've just got to be patient. I'm not @ all worried about OUR 2 guys; @ least give them 1/2 the time Mild LeoTARD has gotten before u give up on them.

No, I'm not jumping the gun. My comment said nor implied anything about "giving up" on him. I simply said his performance was disappointing, and we've seen 10 day contract type players play better.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

...
I could go on. There are literally over 100 examples of why summer league stats are less than meaningless.

Everyone at least seems to agree that Collins looks to have good potential on the defensive side off the ball.
...
BNM

Do you think defense in summer league translates to the regular season? What about rebounding?

 

[Natebishop3]

Do you think defense in summer league translates to the regular season? What about rebounding?

I think defensive instincts translate.

 

[Minstrel]

This is going to be a long season.

 

[Natebishop3]

This is going to be a long season.

You're going to be a long season.

 

[Minstrel]

You're going to be a long season.

Your face is going to...you know what? Not even worth it.

 

[Natebishop3]

Your face is going to...you know what? Not even worth it.

My face is fucking fabulous.

 

[MickZagger]

Yep, and Qyntel Woods was a summer league stud.

Players like Batum (and Collins) do much better in a structured environment. Players like Woods excel at rat ball.

KAT looked like shit in summer league, but won ROY.

Summer League Bayless looked a lot more like Real Russel Westbrook than Summer League Westbrook did.

Randy Foye, Adam Morrison, Jeremy Lamb and Kris Dunn all looked better in summer league than Steph Curry did.

I could go on. There are literally over 100 examples of why summer league stats are less than meaningless.

Everyone at least seems to agree that Collins looks to have good potential on the defensive side off the ball.

Offensively, I don't think it's unreasonable to think he will look better once:

• He's playing with real guards who can get him the ball in a position to score
• He is playing with teammates that can make a wide open shot that will help space the floor
• He's playing in a structured offense that actually runs some plays
• He gets more playing time under his belt to adjust to the faster pace and stronger, more athletic competition
• He stops pressing and realizes it's an 82-game schedule

BNM

Lonny Baxter and Marcus Fizer looked like Karl Malone in SL.

 

[Natebishop3]

Lonny Baxter and Marcus Fizer looked like Karl Malone in SL.

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars ago.

Come on dude. You do recognize that summer league has evolved by leaps and bounds, no?

 

[MickZagger]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaars ago.

Come on dude. You do recognize that summer league has evolved by leaps and bounds, no?

Not as much as you want to make it seem. The gap from being an NBA guy to a fringe NBA guy isn't that big of a margin. Now if were talking NBA stars vs fringe NBA player than yes. The main objective when they came out with SL was to showcase undrafted and free agent talent in hopes they could get training camp invites. Giving the high draft picks burn was a "well why the hell not" type decision.

 

[Minstrel]

My face is fucking fabulous.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

The 6-8, 190-pound Batum averaged 6.8 points, 4.6 rebounds, 1.2 assists and 27.2 minutes in five games during last week’s NBA Summer League in Las Vegas.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Lonny Baxter and Marcus Fizer looked like Karl Malone in SL.

Actually, has anyone else been reminded of Malone when watching Swannigan? Especially when he takes that one footed fade away style shot ala Karl?