NBA Benefits Fraud

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THE HCP said:
But I mean, c’mon. Of all the hate filled, racist, downright uneducated posts that get tossed around here daily, I’M the one on ignore. You can’t make that shit up.
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For the record I don't think you're racist. That's just my opinion though.
 
The NBA healthcare scam, explained
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News broke early Thursday about federal prosecutors accusing 18 former NBA players of being involved in a scheme to defraud the league’s Health and Wellness benefits plan for millions of dollars. The indictment alleges that the ring was led by former Net Terrence Williams and included notable players such as Tony Allen, Glen “Big Baby” Davis and Sebastian Telfair.

I turned to NBA writer Joe Vardon for more answers.

Chris: Any normal sports fan would read this story and ask "Why?" Did you get any sense in your reporting of other motives besides money?

Joe: Tony Allen, the most successful player on this list, earned $41 million from NBA contracts over 14 seasons. So, yeah, why would he and his wife, according to the prosecutors, get involved with this, for what? Thousands? The whole scheme is alleged to have started with Terrence Williams, a former high draft pick of the then-New Jersey Nets who earned nearly $7 million in four NBA seasons. He is accused of submitting a false claim for $19,000 in chiropractic work, for which he was reimbursed nearly $8,000. Also, not all of these players earned as much as Allen.

Chris: Do we have any indication of possible punishment?

Joe: The only thing in the indictment about possible punishment is for the players to repay what they stole. And if they already spent it, fork over what they bought. But Williams was also charged with identity theft. So we shouldn’t rule out jail time.

Chris: Could this also have an impact on how retired players get health care going forward?



Joe: No. And I am glad you asked. This fund from which the money was allegedly stolen is basically a supplemental insurance plan. Eligible current and former NBA players have access to HRAs to cover expenses not provided for by their primary health insurance. The fund is NOT the league’s primary health insurance plan. The league has no intention of taking away any health insurance. Such a move would have to be collectively bargained, anyway, and there is no chance the players sign off on less.
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I'm sure the Athletic's article goes further into details, but my subscription ran out recently.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Maybe a timeout?

If you don’t stop committing fraud by the count of 3….?

Slap their hands?
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I've always thought we should bring back something like public stocks again; put the offender out there in the town square for 72 hours.
Very little cost to the public and I think it could be a real deterrent.
 
If convicted should these people go to prison?

HELL YES!

This wasn't an act of desperation. They weren't forced to do this out of need. They've mismanaged their money and decided to steal more.

We have a pretty screwed-up health care system in this country. The leading cause of bankruptcy is medical bills. And these bankruptcies aren't from people with no health insurance. They're coming from people with health insurance but that health insurance isn't coming anywhere close to covering their bills. Health care fraud exasperates this problem. Health care fraud raises the prices of health care itself and health insurance.

And again, this isn't like Darius Miles' daughter had cancer or something like that. Because if it was something like he would have gone to the press and set up a GoFundMe. Because being a former player with some celebrity gives him that ability.

I completely agree that we send far too many to prison. But these idiots are not the rallying call for that.

These idiots need to be the example for future athletes that time and money are fleeting.
 
blazerkor said:
I hope they get sentenced like anyone else but it's fucking criminal of the government to put people in jail who aren't a danger to society. Fine the shit out of these guys, make them work off the fines doing whatever job they can get (i.e. some regular ass job) and put them on probation so they can't party. That shit should be enough of a punishment from the criminal side of things and let the league go after them in civil court to recoup the damages.

The idea of a bunch of people taking up tax dollars to serve jail time for this kind of shit is fucking absurd.
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I’m not sure you understand what happened here. They didn’t steal from the NBA. They filed false claims to an insurance company and pocketed the money. I don’t know what you do for a living but if you owned a business and 18 guys stole a total of $4,000,000 from you, wouldn’t you want them in jail?
 
KSF-ERIC said:
I’m not sure you understand what happened here. They didn’t steal from the NBA. They filed false claims to an insurance company and pocketed the money. I don’t know what you do for a living but if you owned a business and 18 guys stole a total of $4,000,000 from you, wouldn’t you want them in jail?
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Honestly? The first thing I would want is my $4 million back! If that isn't enough, seize their assets and leave them living in a cardboard box under a bridge.
 
KSF-ERIC said:
I’m not sure you understand what happened here. They didn’t steal from the NBA. They filed false claims to an insurance company and pocketed the money. I don’t know what you do for a living but if you owned a business and 18 guys stole a total of $4,000,000 from you, wouldn’t you want them in jail?
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To answer your question of course I wouldn't want them in jail. I would want restitution and then for them to be in counseling and closely supervised and forced to contribute to society in a probation system. Revenge is a fools game, punishment is revenge. I want justice and then I want people to do better. We think caging people is a smart response to shit like this but it could not be more counterproductive.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Maybe a timeout?

If you don’t stop committing fraud by the count of 3….?

Slap their hands?
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Again, I'm fine with punishments. I just prefer ones that are a net positive to society vs spending billions of dollars to spit out a worse product.
 
blazerkor said:
To answer your question of course I wouldn't want them in jail. I would want restitution and then for them to be in counseling and closely supervised and forced to contribute to society in a probation system. Revenge is a fools game, punishment is revenge. I want justice and then I want people to do better. We think caging people is a smart response to shit like this but it could not be more counterproductive.
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If their motivation had been to commit insurance fraud to save themself or a family member I would agree with you. But this was greed. And for some of these people, this is not their first serious brush with the law. Wasn't it Miles who got caught selling stolen cell phones out of the trunk of his car? He got probation for that. (Which I'm fine with.) But he learned nothing and moved up to a more serious financial crime. Did Ruben Patterson serve any time for raping his kid's nanny?
 
WesleyMatthews said:
I believe the threat of incarnation does prevent white collar crimes such as financial fraud. The other example I stated of Martha Stewart going to jail for illegal insider trading is a public deterrent that I've seen helps people understand the consequences of insider trading when I discuss these situations in my profession.

Just because you think there is "little data" to support that belief, doesn't disapprove my belief.

I understand I don't know everything, I'm not all knowing, and there is much I can learn. I'm all for someone showing me evidence that changes my belief, but until I have seen that I will use my best imperfect beliefs on how we should have public policy enforced and crimes sentenced.

If these accused ex players are convicted of insurance fraud I'm all for a judge sentencing them to prison if that is the most appropriate sentence a judge, the prosecution, and the legal system come up with.
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There a lot of studies that compare the United States to countries who rely on incarrceration far less. There are many studies and arcticles out there such as this one: https://www.vera.org/publications/s...etherlands-implications-for-the-united-states

I, like you, am fine with a prison sentence IF it is the most appropriate. I do believe there are appropriate circumstance to incarcerate someone. Unfortunately, it appears the majority of people in jail/prison do not fall under the category. Being against mass incarceration does not mean I want all incarceration go to go away. I'm not even worried about making it easiest on the person who has committed an offense, I want the result that is going to better the entire society. There is very little evidence to support that having the worlds highest incarceration rate is a net positive for society.

If you do have data that supports high incarceration being good for society, I'm open to reading that as well. Like everything, going from one extreme to another would probably be create just as many problems, it's all about finding the right balance.

Back to this topic: If guilty, I believe these guys should be punished in a way that makes them to never want to commit fraud again while making their victim(s) and society as close, if not more whole than they were to begin with.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
If their motivation had been to commit insurance fraud to save themself or a family member I would agree with you. But this was greed. And for some of these people, this is not their first serious brush with the law. Wasn't it Miles who got caught selling stolen cell phones out of the trunk of his car? He got probation for that. (Which I'm fine with.) But he learned nothing and moved up to a more serious financial crime. Did Ruben Patterson serve any time for raping his kid's nanny?
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I'm not intimate with the details in Ruben's case, but if my memory serves, he was charged with a misdemeanor. In most states, rape is a serious felony, so I can't imagine that's what he was convicted of. I could be wrong though.
 
Tince said:
I'm not intimate with the details in Ruben's case, but if my memory serves, he was charged with a misdemeanor. In most states, rape is a serious felony, so I can't imagine that's what he was convicted of. I could be wrong though.
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He's a registered sex offender. I'm guessing that only happens with a felony. But I don't know for sure on that.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
He's a registered sex offender. I'm guessing that only happens with a felony. But I don't know for sure on that.
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Nope.

Patterson was accused of attempting to rape the family's nanny in September at the family home in suburban Bellevue. The maximum punishment for attempted third-degree rape, a gross misdemeanor, is one year in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Of the one year in jail, he served 15 days.
 
KSF-ERIC said:
I’m not sure you understand what happened here. They didn’t steal from the NBA. They filed false claims to an insurance company and pocketed the money. I don’t know what you do for a living but if you owned a business and 18 guys stole a total of $4,000,000 from you, wouldn’t you want them in jail?
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If my math is correct, these players, stole 0.05% of the NBA annual revenue from them. If you put that in perspective, that would be like someone stealing $19.50 from the an average american who makes $36,000. So the negative impact this will have on the NBA is minimal.

If true, they were greedy, wrong, and in some cases showing repeated poor behavoir and deserve some sort of punishment.

Would I want someone to go to jail for stealing $20 from me though? No.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Nope.

Patterson was accused of attempting to rape the family's nanny in September at the family home in suburban Bellevue. The maximum punishment for attempted third-degree rape, a gross misdemeanor, is one year in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Of the one year in jail, he served 15 days.
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Nice find, thank you. Doesn't make it ok, but this make a little more sense.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Nope.

Patterson was accused of attempting to rape the family's nanny in September at the family home in suburban Bellevue. The maximum punishment for attempted third-degree rape, a gross misdemeanor, is one year in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Of the one year in jail, he served 15 days.
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Patterson was involved in a number of off-the-court issues during his basketball career. Patterson would have to register himself as a sex offender to establish legal residency in many U.S. states, due to pleading guilty in 2001 to attempted rape of his child's nanny in September 2000.[6] It was reported that he forced the nanny to perform a sex act on him.[6][7] In February 2001, Patterson was convicted of misdemeanor assault for attacking a man who scratched his car outside a Cleveland, Ohio night club. Patterson was arrested in 2002 for felony domestic abuse charges on his wife. His wife later dropped the charges[8] and they divorced.[9]

He was accused of failing to register as a sex offender on May 15, 2007 after moving into a new house in Cincinnati and a bench warrant was issued.[10] His agent, former NFL player Tim McGee, said Patterson's failure to register was "an oversight" after Patterson was ordered to pay a $1,000 fine on June 8.

On March 27, 2010, Patterson was arrested in Hamilton County, Ohio on DUI charges after it was found that his blood alcohol level was .117. On July 26, 2010, Hamilton County Municipal Court Judge Bernie Bouchard sentenced him to a $500 fine and a three-day driving program. He also ordered Patterson not to consume alcohol for 18 months.[11]
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Patterson was involved in a number of off-the-court issues during his basketball career. Patterson would have to register himself as a sex offender to establish legal residency in many U.S. states, due to pleading guilty in 2001 to attempted rape of his child's nanny in September 2000.[6] It was reported that he forced the nanny to perform a sex act on him.[6][7] In February 2001, Patterson was convicted of misdemeanor assault for attacking a man who scratched his car outside a Cleveland, Ohio night club. Patterson was arrested in 2002 for felony domestic abuse charges on his wife. His wife later dropped the charges[8] and they divorced.[9]

He was accused of failing to register as a sex offender on May 15, 2007 after moving into a new house in Cincinnati and a bench warrant was issued.[10] His agent, former NFL player Tim McGee, said Patterson's failure to register was "an oversight" after Patterson was ordered to pay a $1,000 fine on June 8.

On March 27, 2010, Patterson was arrested in Hamilton County, Ohio on DUI charges after it was found that his blood alcohol level was .117. On July 26, 2010, Hamilton County Municipal Court Judge Bernie Bouchard sentenced him to a $500 fine and a three-day driving program. He also ordered Patterson not to consume alcohol for 18 months.[11]
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Man do I got a great story about us out at a club in OKC way back in the day!
 
SlyPokerDog said:
If their motivation had been to commit insurance fraud to save themself or a family member I would agree with you. But this was greed. And for some of these people, this is not their first serious brush with the law. Wasn't it Miles who got caught selling stolen cell phones out of the trunk of his car? He got probation for that. (Which I'm fine with.) But he learned nothing and moved up to a more serious financial crime. Did Ruben Patterson serve any time for raping his kid's nanny?
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Yeah, it's just a difference of opinion I guess. Jail time has never shown to be a great deterrent or a decent way to rehabilitate nonviolent offenders. It actually isn't a great deterrent or way to rehabilitate anyone but when someone shows themselves to be a danger to society, we have to get them out of society in some way.

Obviously if Patterson raped someone he should have been in jail and maybe still should but this isn't rape and has nothing to do with it. Miles having a history of selling stolen goods should be taken into consideration when handing out his sentence but that should have to do with duration and severity of probation and fines. Making these guys pay everything back and pay fines, plus making them get jobs, stay completely sober, have curfews and report constantly to a probation officer would be a lot to make them think again about doing something like this. Just look at the numbers of people we incarcerate in this country compared to every other country. Our first thought is to lock someone up and it just doesn't work.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Nope.

Patterson was accused of attempting to rape the family's nanny in September at the family home in suburban Bellevue. The maximum punishment for attempted third-degree rape, a gross misdemeanor, is one year in jail and a $5,000 fine.

Of the one year in jail, he served 15 days.
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The nanny, his former lover, caught him masturbating in his own bedroom. They had sex. She said it wasn't consensual. It's not like the guy was roaming the streets looking for some action. He was probably guilty, but the common narrative painting him like he's what wrong with our society is off the mark.
 
Tince said:
If my math is correct, these players, stole 0.05% of the NBA annual revenue from them. If you put that in perspective, that would be like someone stealing $19.50 from the an average american who makes $36,000. So the negative impact this will have on the NBA is minimal.

If true, they were greedy, wrong, and in some cases showing repeated poor behavoir and deserve some sort of punishment.

Would I want someone to go to jail for stealing $20 from me though? No.
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Something that stood out to me is that the NBA players' insurance doesn't pay 100% of the expenses. I just kind of figured with the money the league and players make it would. But that's beside the point.

Not sure if how your comparing dollar amount to revenue is fair.

The insurance got defrauded. That means people who really need their medical bills covered are going to be scrutinized more. People like Brian Grant. These greedy players' actions are not going to hurt the league, it's going to hurt the people that need the insurance.
 
Wizard Mentor said:
The nanny, his former lover, caught him masturbating in his own bedroom. They had sex. She said it wasn't consensual. It's not like the guy was roaming the streets looking for some action. He was probably guilty, but the common narrative painting him like he's what wrong with our society is off the mark.
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Its so much easier to put people in large groups and paint them with equally as big brush strokes; very little critical thinking is involved that way.

But to your point, I agree, it's very wrong.
 
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What if it comes out that they were trying to bill "massages" to their insurance, a la Robert Kraft? That would definitely be strike two for Patterson.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Something that stood out to me is that the NBA players' insurance doesn't pay 100% of the expenses. I just kind of figured with the money the league and players make it would. But that's beside the point.

Not sure if how your comparing dollar amount to revenue is fair.

The insurance got defrauded. That means people who really need their medical bills covered are going to be scrutinized more. People like Brian Grant. These greedy players' actions are not going to hurt the league, it's going to hurt the people that need the insurance.
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Your point is well made and true.

My point is that the dollar amount being used in a scenario where the average person is asked how they would feel if $4m was taken from them is probably not an accurate comparison to be made.

These greedy actions (if true) are what cause insurance premiums, paid by the NBA and their players (or society as a whole) to be so high. $4 million in nothing compared to the markup insulin companies pass on to the American insurance companies, that later get passed on to all of us. Somehow, that is legal though.
 
Tince said:
If my math is correct, these players, stole 0.05% of the NBA annual revenue from them. If you put that in perspective, that would be like someone stealing $19.50 from the an average american who makes $36,000. So the negative impact this will have on the NBA is minimal.

If true, they were greedy, wrong, and in some cases showing repeated poor behavoir and deserve some sort of punishment.

Would I want someone to go to jail for stealing $20 from me though? No.
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I don’t think this a good argument. So stealing more money is fine as long as it’s only a certain percentage?
 
calvin natt said:
I don’t think this a good argument. So stealing more money is fine as long as it’s only a certain percentage?
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I think the impact on the "victim" should be a factor in the punishment. I think stealing $20 from a homeless person is worse than stealing $20 from Amazon. My opinion only and it's fair if you think those things are equal.

At no point did I say stealing was fine, did I? Multiple times, I've stated that if true, what they did was wrong, greedy, and deserves punishment. To imply otherwise is poor form.
 
Wizard Mentor said:
The nanny, his former lover, caught him masturbating in his own bedroom. They had sex. She said it wasn't consensual. It's not like the guy was roaming the streets looking for some action. He was probably guilty, but the common narrative painting him like he's what wrong with our society is off the mark.
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Yeah, that one always seemed like a payday to me. People loved to use the "Nanny Raper" term to sensationalize it but they were like 1 or 2 years apart in age and as you pointed out had consensual sex previously. As I recall his wife wanted to kick her ass. https://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Patterson-sentenced-to-jail-1054755.php
 
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