NO offense from THREE starters

[SpanishFly]

we have 3 guys starting who simply have no consistent or any offense and can't at all create for themselves. We know Pryz has to start and we are left with Webs and Blake who are simply awful. It's killing Roy and LMA as teams key on them and laugh at our other 3 guys. We have to do something or it will only get worse. At least try Miller or Rudy (if healthy) or even Bayless. We have no chance with this starting unit.

 

[blue32]

This was stated in another thread, but I agree. we need to shake-up the lineup.

 

[craigehlo]

We've needed a scoring SF that can create their own shot for ages. It's now a bigger imperative with Greg down. If Nate is going to stick with his same stale offensive plan, we need one more legit scorer that can break his man down.

 

[SpanishFly]

We've needed a scoring SF that can create their own shot for ages. It's now a bigger imperative with Greg down. If Nate is going to stick with his same stale offensive plan, we need one more legit scorer that can break his man down.

Rudy/Blake/Outlaw for Caron Butler? or Rudy/Miller for Butler/Foye?

 

[blue32]

Pretty much, Miller or Bayless needs to start (Bayless definitely needs more minutes) and either Webster has to shit or get off the pot. That guy NEEDS to produce, otherwise I call shenanigans.

 

[hasoos]

You stealing my thunder SpanishFly!

Just giving you a bad time. Good to see some folks see the light!

 

[craigehlo]

Rudy/Blake/Outlaw for Caron Butler? or Rudy/Miller for Butler/Foye?

Either trade would be a great. This is the worst time for Rudy to be having back issues that might hurt his trade value though.

 

[craigehlo]

Pretty much, Miller or Bayless needs to start (Bayless definitely needs more minutes) and either Webster has to shit or get off the pot. That guy NEEDS to produce, otherwise I call shenanigans.

Martell is an official bust in my book. I'm not sure what else people need to see from him. He simply doesn't have the talent to be consistent player on the NBA level.

 

[maxiep]

Yep, we're in a tough spot. I say unless there's a deal out there that improves us in the future and not just this year, we suffer through the rest of the season. These nine guys are capable of playing .500 ball. Nico may come back later this year. Rudy will return in a little while. I think TO is done for the year (there's no reason to rush him back). GO has already been ruled out. We'll get Pendergraph back in a month and Mills may even make an appearance.

I think we stick with who we have and try to eek into the playoffs. When GO went down, it became about next year.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Except for the small fact that he's outplaying his opposing SFs by 3 PER points. The teams offense is slightly worse with him on the floor (109 vs. 112), though the defense is pretty stellar with him (101 vs 108). The only player on the team with a better production delta (Martell's vs. what he gives up) is Oden.

According to the stats people like to see, he's already an elite defender at the wing position, and guarding the opponent's best wing player.
Fun fact to know and tell? Of players playing 10% or more of team minutes (4.8 mpg), here is the list of players who hold their opponent's production below 10.1.

Brandon Rush, 8.5 in 56%
Ron Artest, 10.1 in 70%,
James Jones, 8.5 in 20%
Martell Webster, 7.3 in 47% of minutes

 

[hasoos]

Except for the small fact that he's outplaying his opposing SFs by 3 PER points. The teams offense is slightly worse with him on the floor (109 vs. 112), though the defense is pretty stellar with him (101 vs 108). The only player on the team with a better production delta (Martell's vs. what he gives up) is Oden.

According to the stats people like to see, he's already an elite defender at the wing position, and guarding the opponent's best wing player.
Fun fact to know and tell? Of players playing 10% or more of team minutes (4.8 mpg), here is the list of players who hold their opponent's production below 10.1.

Brandon Rush, 8.5 in 56%
Ron Artest, 10.1 in 70%,
James Jones, 8.5 in 20%
Martell Webster, 7.3 in 47% of minutes

Ok how about this stat. Out of all the players you just listed, one is considered good, and his name isn't Martell.

 

[BrianFromWA]

So what you're saying is, unless you have a shiny PPG number next to your name, you aren't "good"?

Basketball is a two-way game. But since defense isn't sexy...

 

[Mediocre Man]

Who cares about offense or defense. You have to ask yourself one question. Are they scrappy? That is reall all that matters.


Well, that and do they take precious shots away from Roy and Aldridge

 

[BrianFromWA]

If Blake is the King of Scrap, Martell has to be at least the Crown Prince or something.

 

[hasoos]

So what you're saying is, unless you have a shiny PPG number next to your name, you aren't "good"?

Basketball is a two-way game. But since defense isn't sexy...

You can't win with 3 guys who can't score in the starting lineup. You know the reason the offense was so predictable last night? Brandon tries to isolate. Aldridge tries to isolate. Brandon tries to isolate. Aldridge tries to isolate. What happens every time they isolate? Well it so happens that none of the rest of the starters could hit a shot if they tried. So they just collapse down on our stars, and our stars either turn over the ball from the pressure or they pass it to a guy who can't hit the broad side of the barn from the 3 point line.

The facts are that the defense those players play does not make up for their lack of scoring.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Uh, that's not what the stats say. In fact, the stats say that Martell's offense and defense combined are a production value 7 points higher than their opponent. In other words, Martell's O+D > every other player on the teams (except Oden), including Roy and LMA.

The fact IS that the defense Webster plays DOES make up for his "lack of scoring". http://www.82games.com/0910/0910POR.HTM Sorry if that doesn't fit into your realm of opinion.

And yes, I agree that Blake starting is poor for the team, since his production delta is negative. Joel's is worse, but since Greg's out there isn't a better option.

What the FACTS AND STATS tell me is that LMA (and to some extent, Roy) are not good enough at isos to play the type of D that they're playing. Blake is not good enough period to be on the court as much as he is. Przybilla's in b/c of a poor situation. And yet you want to bench the one guy who's performing on D?

 

[hasoos]

Uh, that's not what the stats say. In fact, the stats say that Martell's offense and defense combined are a production value 7 points higher than their opponent. In other words, Martell's O+D > every other player on the teams (except Oden), including Roy and LMA.

The fact IS that the defense Webster plays DOES make up for his "lack of scoring". http://www.82games.com/0910/0910POR.HTM Sorry if that doesn't fit into your realm of opinion.

And yes, I agree that Blake starting is poor for the team, since his production delta is negative. Joel's is worse, but since Greg's out there isn't a better option.

What the FACTS AND STATS tell me is that LMA (and to some extent, Roy) are not good enough at isos to play the type of D that they're playing. Blake is not good enough period to be on the court as much as he is. Przybilla's in b/c of a poor situation. And yet you want to bench the one guy who's performing on D?

Well here is what the stats say. The stats say that Martell only has a good scoring game every 3 or 4 games and that is being generous. The stats also say that PERS is a horrible statistic to use to evaluate a player who is sketchy in performance level from night to night.

3 points at NY. Think we won the SF battle that night?
2 points at Houston. Think we won the SF battle that night?
6 points vs Chicago. Think we won the SF battle that night?
2 points vs the Golden State Warriors. Think we won the SF battle that night?
0 points vs Detroit. I sure hope his defense was good that night....
2 points vs Atlanta. Boy that defense better be good
0 points vs Charlotte. That defense better be really good.
4 points vs New Orleans. I am sure Peja was held to 4 or less.
11 other games with 8 or less points. How do you think we did there?

He has 2 games above 20 points that skew his numbers. If not for those, he would be averaging in the sewer for points. The stats show that Martell is a player who occasionally gets hot, but that's about it.

 

[BrianFromWA]

No, the stats show that even with all those games you pulled up, his defense is so fucking fantastic that he's a more productive and complete player than Roy and LMA combined. Against the best wing player on the other team.

Again, you're looking at PPG. Good for you, and yes, he's not good at that. His production is slightly below "average NBA starter" at 14.6.

He's holding his opponents to less than half of that. What part of that is difficult to get?

 

[Shooter]

Martell is an official bust in my book. I'm not sure what else people need to see from him. He simply doesn't have the talent to be consistent player on the NBA level.

I've been saying this for about 2 years now. Webster looks like the real thing about 5% of the time, and the rest of the time he's just hopeless.

 

[hasoos]

No, the stats show that even with all those games you pulled up, his defense is so fucking fantastic that he's a more productive and complete player than Roy and LMA combined. Against the best wing player on the other team.

Again, you're looking at PPG. Good for you, and yes, he's not good at that. His production is slightly below "average NBA starter" at 14.6.

He's holding his opponents to less than half of that. What part of that is difficult to get?

There is nothing to get. Your argument is null and void. Averages don't win games. When you figure that out, you will move a step ahead in analyzing basketball. If we went by the averages, why would we bother to play the games?

Consistently good players make teams great. Consistently bad players make teams bad. Martell is consistently bad.

If you want to go ahead and keep arguing for the sake of Martell Webster have at it. It's not my basketball IQ at stake. It's yours.

 

[alex42083]

Kenny Vance on 95.5 just said some players are getting a free pass from fans for their crappy play.. and he said Blake and Webster are getting free passes. Obviously he hasn't read this forum.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

KP's plan is to hope this squad overachieves.

What a douche.

 

[blue32]

I do think the biggest thing here though is Steve fucking Blake. Webster needs to produce now, but at least he's coming off a year-off. Blake is supposed to be our vet....

 

[SpanishFly]

There is nothing to get. Your argument is null and void. Averages don't win games. When you figure that out, you will move a step ahead in analyzing basketball. If we went by the averages, why would we bother to play the games?

Consistently good players make teams great. Consistently bad players make teams bad. Martell is consistently bad.

If you want to go ahead and keep arguing for the sake of Martell Webster have at it. It's not my basketball IQ at stake. It's yours.

LOL, that was funny

 

[PapaG]

I do think the biggest thing here though is Steve fucking Blake. Webster needs to produce now, but at least he's coming off a year-off. Blake is supposed to be our vet....

Blake is coming off of shoulder surgery. Of course, no one will give him time to find his game...

 

[e_blazer]

Lord knows that Blake's shot has been off all season, but where is this notion that Miller has been a consistent offensive force coming from. Other than the Houston game, he's looked sluggish and lost. He flat out stunk last night.

 

[PapaG]

It's not my basketball IQ at stake. It's yours.

The whole "James Harden is a better SG than Brandon Roy right now" argument already took a big chunk out of yours.

 

[Ed O]

I do think the biggest thing here though is Steve fucking Blake. Webster needs to produce now, but at least he's coming off a year-off. Blake is supposed to be our vet....

I don't see why Blake keeps starting. I know I'm far from alone in this on this board, but... sheesh.

Try something else. You can always come back to Blake. It's not like he hasn't played off the bench before.

Ed O.

 

[MickZagger]

I said this same thing yesterday in the game thread.

Our offense is so predictable. Blake doesn't even look for his 3 pointer that made him so efficient last year, Martell is a big downgrade from Outlaw and Batum and is so shaky on offense I cringe everytime he lowers his head and drives to the hoop and I've lost faith in his jumpshot, even when he's left wide open. Joel pretty much is, what he is. A lot of people harping on the defense, including players, but I see way more problem with the offense than the defense.

 

[Deebag]

One day, Martell will get hot consistently. But probably on another team...