Now I have to hear a year of this worthless Derek Jeter crap

[Disturbed]

Jeter is an all time great for the following reasons:
1. He was very good for a very long time
2. He played a position that typically doesnt provide much offense - Had he been an OF hitting .315 with 15-20 HR a year he would be considered good not great
3. He played in New York on really good teams for most of his career

When you package his career up its outstanding. He only had a couple of outstanding seasons though. Not a knock. Just the truth. He hasnt had a really good season in 5 years but the Jeter love fest in this country is amazing.

 

[mrmel29]

I would say Derek Jeter fans are the exact opposite of insecure. You two are really knocking the greatest Yankee shortstop of all time and top couple of shortstops period all-time? Your scrutiny of the first half of his season at age 40 coming off a couple of broken ankles is ridiculous. Maybe go back to when he was a young lad in his last full season at age 38 when he batted .316, was 7th in the mvp voting and led the league in hits at she 38 with 216. With all the scumbags and ped users out there in baseball today you guys pick the most revered, well respected player in baseball by players, management, reporters, announcers and fans themselves to belittle with your bullshit half season stats??? 31 and dis if I didn't know better I would say your just a couple of frustrated met fans

 

[Disturbed]

I would say Derek Jeter fans are the exact opposite of insecure. You two are really knocking the greatest Yankee shortstop of all time and top couple of shortstops period all-time? Your scrutiny of the first half of his season at age 40 coming off a couple of broken ankles is ridiculous. Maybe go back to when he was a young lad in his last full season at age 38 when he batted .316, was 7th in the mvp voting and led the league in hits at she 38 with 216. With all the scumbags and ped users out there in baseball today you guys pick the most revered, well respected player in baseball by players, management, reporters, announcers and fans themselves to belittle with your bullshit half season stats??? 31 and dis if I didn't know better I would say your just a couple of frustrated met fans

Not talking about this season MRMEL - I am talking about most of his career

Never lead the league in anything
Zero MVP's
Despite his GG he is largely considered above avg defensivley with below avg range

He was a consistently very good hitting SS for a very long time. That is why he is a HOFer

 

[Disturbed]

And for the record I am a Mariners fan not a Mets fan ;-)

But its hard not to argue the body of work by Jeter doesnt make him top 5 all time SS

You can be an all time great and really not have any truly great seasons. Jeter is proof of that

 

[mrmel29]

Not talking about this season MRMEL - I am talking about most of his career

Never lead the league in anything
Zero MVP's
Despite his GG he is largely considered above avg defensivley with below avg range

He was a consistently very good hitting SS for a very long time. That is why he is a HOFer

Dis, led the league in hits twice
8 times in the top 10 mvp voting including the 2 he got screwed out of in 1998 and 2006 with the anti-yankee bias
despite his gg's?? Ha ha ha Thats a knock?
You left out despite his 14 asg appearances he was considered luck that he was good lucking LOL
Very good hitting shortstop for a long time. With over 3400 hits and will finish top 6 all-time I would say so.
He will be a first ballot shoo in HOF in the summer of 2020 because he was a great all around ballplayer who could do it all and was an integral part of the yankee dynasty who was one of the most clutch hitters in regular season and ESPECIALLY the postseason where other so called great players wilted of all-time.
Seattle fan????

 

[Disturbed]

Dis, led the league in hits twice
8 times in the top 10 mvp voting including the 2 he got screwed out of in 1998 and 2006 with the anti-yankee bias
despite his gg's?? Ha ha ha Thats a knock?
You left out despite his 14 asg appearances he was considered luck that he was good lucking LOL
Very good hitting shortstop for a long time. With over 3400 hits and will finish top 6 all-time I would say so.
He will be a first ballot shoo in HOF in the summer of 2020 because he was a great all around ballplayer who could do it all and was an integral part of the yankee dynasty who was one of the most clutch hitters in regular season and ESPECIALLY the postseason where other so called great players wilted of all-time.
Seattle fan????

Nobody including me is not saying he isnt a 1st ballot HOFer. He absolutely is. He was a great singles hitter ;-)

Seriously though his total body of work is super impressive. If you look at his seasons though they were very good not great, I dont know how you dispute that. Getting 200 hits a year every year is very impressive. It also helps getting 650 ABs a year too.

I am not saying he isnt an all time great, he is. You could argue he is top 3 SS all time that is pretty amazing career.

His post season splits are very similar to his regular season numbers. He was a good post season player who also played on great teams.

But its not like he has remarkable seasons. He had good to very good seasons for 20 years. Still impressive but lets call a spade a spade.

Regarding his defense, it is well known (I have earlier posts in this thread) that his gold gloves are largely considered a joke in baseball circles. Do you really think Jeter was an all time great SS???

 

[NYR31]

past 5yrs he has a .728 OPS (baseball-reference) which puts him slightly below league average (97 OPS+)...Add in his terrible defense and he hasn't been good in half a decade.

He'll get into the HOF without a doubt, but he doesn't deserve the idolization he gets as he has been terribly overrated for years. When it comes to Yankee fans, you can spit on their first born and it wouldn't upset them as much as when you don't worship Jeter the way they do.

 

[Messiah717]

A great HOF career is really all that needs to be said. When you're approaching a name like Honus Wagner on the all time hit list I think that pretty much says it all.

 

[Disturbed]

Yeah Messiah - All time hits is basically why Jeter is an all time great.

 

[Rick2583]

Dis, led the league in hits twice
8 times in the top 10 mvp voting including the 2 he got screwed out of in 1998 and 2006 with the anti-yankee bias
despite his gg's?? Ha ha ha Thats a knock?
You left out despite his 14 asg appearances he was considered luck that he was good lucking LOL
Very good hitting shortstop for a long time. With over 3400 hits and will finish top 6 all-time I would say so.
He will be a first ballot shoo in HOF in the summer of 2020 because he was a great all around ballplayer who could do it all and was an integral part of the yankee dynasty who was one of the most clutch hitters in regular season and ESPECIALLY the postseason where other so called great players wilted of all-time.
Seattle fan????

After 3 posts in 5 minutes it looks like you've chased disturbed away Mel. But just in case he comes back let me add this, You claim he hasn't had a really good season in 5 years? so I guess you just jumped over 2012 when he led the league in hits with 216 while batting 316. And speaking of those two numbers, he's had 12 seasons of 300 or more & has 8 200 hit seasons. Only Pete Rose Ichiro Suzuki & Ty Cobb have had more. But yeah, he only had a FEW good seasons. Where do these educated posters come from?


I'd address NYR31 in lenth but why bother? the kids an obvious moron who's still in morning over his Rangers loss & couldn't fill a bottle cap with his knowledge of baseball.

 

[Disturbed]

MRML and I have been posting here for months, he is a good poster we just dont agree on Jeter. We posted together for along time on ESPN. BTW, who are you???

Also, I never said he had a FEW good seasons I said he had 20 good to very good seasons but not really any GREAT ones. Sometimes longevity and consistency make you great. Jeter is a good example.

 

[Disturbed]

BTW, Ichiro and Jeter are very good comparisons. If Ichiro played in MLB from day one instead of Japan he would end up with ore hits than Jeter, largely because he had a ton of plate appearances and hit a shitload of singles. Sound familiar? Ichiro is hardly one of the best OF ever in baseball and I love Ichiro as a player especially in his prime.

Again, i will say it for those not paying attention. Jeter has had a fantastic career. His all time hit totals alone make him an all time great SS. You combine that with his rings, his leadership and he is one of the best SS to ever play the game. But please tell me which seasons he has had that is truly GREAT.

BTW, I will say that 99 hitting .349 w 24 HR in the steriod era for an obviously clean player is a GREAT season for a SS. Not many others stand out though and thats ok. He is still an all time great no argument.

 

[Rick2583]

MRML and I have been posting here for months, he is a good poster we just dont agree on Jeter. We posted together for along time on ESPN. BTW, who are you???

Also, I never said he had a FEW good seasons I said he had 20 good to very good season.

Semantics, my mistake you didn't say FEW you said COUPLE. And you also said he hasn't had a good season in 5 years. I pointed 2012 out to you. But I'm sure that was just an oversight.

As far as who I am? I'm an old dog that goes back a long way on these boards. Always with the same SN.

 

[Rick2583]

BTW, Ichiro and Jeter are very good comparisons. If Ichiro played in MLB from day one instead of Japan he would end up with ore hits than Jeter, largely because he had a ton of plate appearances and hit a shitload of singles. Sound familiar? Ichiro is hardly one of the best OF ever in baseball and I love Ichiro as a player especially in his prime.

Again, i will say it for those not paying attention. Jeter has had a fantastic career. His all time hit totals alone make him an all time great SS. You combine that with his rings, his leadership and he is one of hte best SS to ever play the game. But please tell me what season he has had that is truly GREAT.

For his position & power range define your definition of great.

 

[Disturbed]

For his position & power range define your definition of great.

.316 with an OPS of .791 isnt great

1999 when he hit .349 w OPS of .990 that is great

I dont see many of those seasons. I see alot of good to very good seasons though

If you want to see a great SS season so far look at Tulowitzki this year

Hitting .345 so far w 21 HR and OPS of 1.048

Now THAT is great

What seperates Jeter from everyone else is durabality and consistently. Guys like Barry Larkin would have similar careers if they were not hurt so much. Durability is important. Jeter can be an all time great and be over rated at the same time.

 

[NYR31]

Never saw Wagner play so cannot comment on how he was defensively, but he obviously had a long, successful career. Jeter should not have ever been a SS for as long as he has. At the very latest, the moment Arod stepped foot in NY Jeter should have been moved, as Arod was the superior talent, but Jeter’s name and ego is what kept him in a position he shouldn't have. His glove is, and has always been overrated. Better said, it was always overrated, and the past few years it’s just an abortion.

Offensively Jeter had a great 10-yr run from ’98 to ’07 where he had a .865 OPS and 126 OPS+, well above average for the position (even if he shouldn't have been there). From ’08 to today he’s had a .763 OPS and 103 OPS+, so slightly above average with the bat, and in the past 5yrs his offense is slightly below average and an abortion with the glove. So it’s been more than half a decade since Jeter has been a better than average all-around SS, yet he gets all this “RE2PECT” like he is some kind of hero when he’s just another overrated baseball player. You put his career on any of the other 28 teams and he’s just another player with a good career. Heck, leave him in the Yankees but put him in any other position, and his numbers aren’t all that great. But he dunked singles into RF for 20yrs while playing a position he didn’t deserve but his ego prevented him from moving. Yay.

Where has Bernie’s tour, ASG cameo and lip service from the league? His offense and defense were better than overrated Jeter’s. And as bad as the Rivera dog and pony show was, at least he was still dominant, while Jeter has been a hack for years now.

 

[Disturbed]

Never saw Wagner play so cannot comment on how he was defensively, but he obviously had a long, successful career. Jeter should not have ever been a SS for as long as he has. At the very latest, the moment Arod stepped foot in NY Jeter should have been moved, as Arod was the superior talent, but Jeter’s name and ego is what kept him in a position he shouldn't have. His glove is, and has always been overrated. Better said, it was always overrated, and the past few years it’s just an abortion.

Offensively Jeter had a great 10-yr run from ’98 to ’07 where he had a .865 OPS and 126 OPS+, well above average for the position (even if he shouldn't have been there). From ’08 to today he’s had a .763 OPS and 103 OPS+, so slightly above average with the bat, and in the past 5yrs his offense is slightly below average and an abortion with the glove. So it’s been more than half a decade since Jeter has been a better than average all-around SS, yet he gets all this “RE2PECT” like he is some kind of hero when he’s just another overrated baseball player. You put his career on any of the other 28 teams and he’s just another player with a good career. Heck, leave him in the Yankees but put him in any other position, and his numbers aren’t all that great. But he dunked singles into RF for 20yrs while playing a position he didn’t deserve but his ego prevented him from moving. Yay.

Where has Bernie’s tour, ASG cameo and lip service from the league? His offense and defense were better than overrated Jeter’s. And as bad as the Rivera dog and pony show was, at least he was still dominant, while Jeter has been a hack for years now.

BOOM

 

[Disturbed]

Semantics, my mistake you didn't say FEW you said COUPLE. And you also said he hasn't had a good season in 5 years. I pointed 2012 out to you. But I'm sure that was just an oversight.

As far as who I am? I'm an old dog that goes back a long way on these boards. Always with the same SN.

I said he had 20 good to very good seasons but only 1 GREAT season. Care to dispute that?

 

[NYR31]

Here are some cool stats courtesy of ESPN.

D-War (Defensive wins above replacement) for the past 10yrs for JETES

2014: -0.2
2013: -0.5
2012: -1.4
2011: -1.0
2010: -0.1
2009: +1.0 (wow, he didn't suck 1 year)
2008: -0.2
2007: -1.5
2006: -0.8
2005: -1.9

bahahaha, what a JOKE this guy is with the glove. BELOW REPLACEMENT LEVEL for 9 out of 10yrs, often finishing last or near last in the metric for all qualified SS's in MLB.

Let's give him another standing O for that glove work, lol.

 

[mrmel29]

.316 with an OPS of .791 isnt great

1999 when he hit .349 w OPS of .990 that is great

I dont see many of those seasons. I see alot of good to very good seasons though

If you want to see a great SS season so far look at Tulowitzki this year

Hitting .345 so far w 21 HR and OPS of 1.048

Now THAT is great

What seperates Jeter from everyone else is durabality and consistently. Guys like Barry Larkin would have similar careers if they were not hurt so much. Durability is important. Jeter can be an all time great and be over rated at the same time.

Dis, Can't include tulowitski because of the colorado stadium influence. For example this year 2014, 1 more game played away than at home here are the splits, ave h-.417, a-.265, hr-h-14, a-7, rbi h-35, a-17. Which follows in the footsteps of other great colorado number makers like larry walker todd helton and a few others there.

 

[Disturbed]

But he has 5 gold gloves!!!! LOL

 

[Rick2583]

.316 with an OPS of .791 isnt great

1999 when he hit .349 w OPS of .990 that is great

I dont see many of those seasons. I see alot of good to very good seasons though

If you want to see a great SS season so far look at Tulowitzki this year

Hitting .345 so far w 21 HR and OPS of 1.048

Now THAT is great

What seperates Jeter from everyone else is durabality and consistently. Guys like Barry Larkin would have similar careers if they were not hurt so much. Durability is important. Jeter can be an all time great and be over rated at the same time.

You can't put Tulo in the same category with Jeter, Tulo is a middle of the order guy that hits for power & has a lot more RBI situations. Larkin was a good player who was never great & IMO didn't deserve to be elected into the HOF. Just as I'm sure many are still scratching there heads wondering how he ever won the MVP in (I believe 95) when at least 3-4 other were much more deserving. Most notably Dante Bichette.

No one unless your name was Ruth Gehrig or Williams is going to be great ALL the time every year. Jeter for his power & his hitting ability had a few GREAT seasons, MANY good seasons & very few not so good seasons. This I think we can both agree on. And when all is said & done he will go down as one of the best hitting shortstops to ever play this game. And that's saying something.

 

[Disturbed]

Dis, Can't include tulowitski because of the colorado stadium influence. For example this year 2014, 1 more game played away than at home here are the splits, ave h-.417, a-.265, hr-h-14, a-7, rbi h-35, a-17. Which follows in the footsteps of other great colorado number makers like larry walker todd helton and a few others there.

Coors field inflation is a fair point

Can we agree that Jeter's greatness is in large part to factors: 1) the position that he plays? A postion that to 31's point, he has never been elite defensively at and 2) his longevity

 

[Disturbed]

You can't put Tulo in the same category with Jeter, Tulo is a middle of the order guy that hits for power & has a lot more RBI situations. Larkin was a good player who was never great & IMO didn't deserve to be elected into the HOF. Just as I'm sure many are still scratching there heads wondering how he ever won the MVP in (I believe 95) when at least 3-4 other were much more deserving. Most notably Dante Bichette.

No one unless your name was Ruth Gehrig or Williams is going to be great ALL the time every year. Jeter for his power & his hitting ability had a few GREAT seasons, MANY good seasons & very few not so good seasons. This I think we can both agree on. And when all is said & done he will go down as one of the best hitting shortstops to ever play this game. And that's saying something.

Just curious, I count 1 great season. 1999

How many do you see?

 

[mrmel29]

Coors field inflation is a fair point

Can we agree that Jeter's greatness is in large part to factors: 1) the position that he plays? A postion that to 31's point, he has never been elite defensively at and 2) his longevity

I'll agree that Jeters greatness is due to he is great.

 

[Disturbed]

I'll agree that Jeters greatness is due to he is great.

LOL

 

[Rick2583]

Look for a player who's considered a light hitting short stop (never a big HR or RBI guy) I think I can speak for MANY when I say a great season for such a player would be over 100 runs scored, over 200 hits, over 300 batting average, 20+SBs, an OBP of .350 or better, Slg% of .460-480, an OPS near .850 & finishing in the top 10 of MVP voting. And Derek Jeter had quite a few of those type of seasons. Just saying.

BTW: this response was meant for Disturbed since the 31 clown is more like an annoying bug that keeps buzzing around your face that needs to be swatted. Not to mention that he adds nothing of substance to this very unnecessary debate.

 

[Rick2583]

Just curious, I count 1 great season. 1999

How many do you see?

Refer to post 147

 

[Disturbed]

Refer to post 147

You didnt really answer the question and this is my issue with Jeter fans. You are implying he shouldnt be measured against other greats because he isnt a HR or RBI guy so his .350 OBP and 15 HR are good because he is light hitting?

You measure a players season against other players not against what type of player the player is. .350 OBP is not great. It might be great for him but that just proves my point.

 

[Rick2583]

You didnt really answer the question and this is my issue with Jeter fans. You are implying he isnt that great because he isnt a HR or RBI guy so his .350 OBP and 15 HR are good because he is light hitting?

You measure a players season against other players not against what type of player the player is. .350 OBP is not great. It might be great for him but that just proves my point.

I mentioned 7-8 categories, you made reference in return to two. And the reason I hit on the 7 or 8 that I did is because it wouldn't be fair to lump him in with someone like say, Ernie Banks who was a middle of the order power hitter. Just as I wouldn't go the other way around because Banks (a career 270 something hitter) wasn't the hitter that Jeter has been.

Where Banks could be compared to someone more like A-Rod, You have to put Jeter in with the lighter hitting guys like Larkin, Viscal, Smith, Aparicio, Belanger, etc. And keep in mind I'm not kidding myself on Jeter's Defense as the mental midget 31 has constantly harped on. I'm strictly going on my claim & Mel's that Jeter has been one of the best HITTING shortstops of all time.