OFFICIAL AROUND THE NBA THREAD - August 2021

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It just amazes me that as we've seen training techniques evolve, we've seen style of play evolve, that people still rationalize coaches/managers treating subordinates like it's still the Stone Age is acceptable because that's just how life is.

Using that type of reasoning, bullying is good, domestic abuse is OK, sexual harassment in the work place is fine, because, hey, it gets results and it's just the way it's always been done. Except it isn't, but let's not cloud the issue with facts. And the emotional issues it causes and the victims that come about as victims enact the same behavior on other people ... that's just the fault of the victims for not being strong enough.

And we wonder why society has issues.
 
PCmor7 said:
It just amazes me that as we've seen training techniques evolve, we've seen style of play evolve, that people still rationalize coaches/managers treating subordinates like it's still the Stone Age is acceptable because that's just how life is.

Using that type of reasoning, bullying is good, domestic abuse is OK, sexual harassment in the work place is fine, because, hey, it gets results and it's just the way it's always been done. Except it isn't, but let's not cloud the issue with facts. And the emotional issues it causes and the victims that come about as victims enact the same behavior on other people ... that's just the fault of the victims for not being strong enough.

And we wonder why society has issues.
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Yeah I totally agree with you. For those of us that predate Millennials, I can see the impulse to say, "I was coached like that and I turned out alright." Or some bullshit like that. For Millennials and maybe even younger there could be some allure to romancing "when men were men" or some other fucked up notion.

The fact is these were full grown men and by the accounts in Giannis's book they weren't being treated in a way that showed any respect at all. That is not an effective way to coach, manage or treat another human being. When you take into account that Sanders already had a history of problems with mental health and substance abuse, it makes the actions even more disturbing but probably not as disturbing as some of the responses about it in here.

I do think that people can change and I don't think that this should disqualify Kidd from coaching. I don't know if his past of domestic violence should, that is more troubling to me. What all of it means, to me, is that Jason Kidd should be watched very carefully by the Mavs, the league and the players association to ensure that he isn't still using methods that could be emotionally injurious to players.
 
blazerkor said:
Yeah I totally agree with you. For those of us that predate Millennials, I can see the impulse to say, "I was coached like that and I turned out alright." Or some bullshit like that. For Millennials and maybe even younger there could be some allure to romancing "when men were men" or some other fucked up notion.

The fact is these were full grown men and by the accounts in Giannis's book they weren't being treated in a way that showed any respect at all. That is not an effective way to coach, manage or treat another human being. When you take into account that Sanders already had a history of problems with mental health and substance abuse, it makes the actions even more disturbing but probably not as disturbing as some of the responses about it in here.

I do think that people can change and I don't think that this should disqualify Kidd from coaching. I don't know if his past of domestic violence should, that is more troubling to me. What all of it means, to me, is that Jason Kidd should be watched very carefully by the Mavs, the league and the players association to ensure that he isn't still using methods that could be emotionally injurious to players.
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I had that impulse.

I will say there is a way to be a bit of hard ass to players and still be respectful. I.e. Popovich. There is a balance to it, a fine line. What Kidd did was wrong.
 
Chris Craig said:
I had that impulse.

I will say there is a way to be a bit of hard ass to players and still be respectful. I.e. Popovich. There is a balance to it, a fine line. What Kidd did was wrong.
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I think there are different approaches to coaching that can be successful and holding players accountable in a way that might be uncomfortable for them, when backed up by trust and respect that goes both ways is definitely a style that can work and can be completely healthy. Like you said, Kidd was going way past that.

Personally I don't think there's any reason unless it's an emergency or the volume is necessary for someone to actually hear what you're saying, to raise your voice towards another person and when I do I try and think about how I could have handled it differently. Like I said that's personal and I have had coaches that yelled at me... that I'm sure would still yell today and were good people who impacted my life positively. Had great parents that raised their voices. So yeah it can be effective but isn't my style or personal preference. I have also had people raise their voice towards me, their subordinates and even towards my direct reports in professional settings... that's never sat well with me. I do realize professional sports are different than other jobs though.
 
blazerkor said:
I think there are different approaches to coaching that can be successful and holding players accountable in a way that might be uncomfortable for them, when backed up by trust and respect that goes both ways is definitely a style that can work and can be completely healthy. Like you said, Kidd was going way past that.

Personally I don't think there's any reason unless it's an emergency or the volume is necessary for someone to actually hear what you're saying, to raise your voice towards another person and when I do I try and think about how I could have handled it differently. Like I said that's personal and I have had coaches that yelled at me... that I'm sure would still yell today and were good people who impacted my life positively. Had great parents that raised their voices. So yeah it can be effective but isn't my style or personal preference. I have also had people raise their voice towards me, their subordinates and even towards my direct reports in professional settings... that's never sat well with me. I do realize professional sports are different than other jobs though.
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Agreed.

My dad raised his voice quite a bit when I was a kid. Mostly to my brother who was more of a trouble maker than me. At least he was the one that got caught being a trouble maker.

Not only did Kidd Bully and put down grown men in front of others. He made them practice on Christmas. That's fucked. You don't do that. The day after Christmas maybe.
 
Chris Craig said:
Agreed.

My dad raised his voice quite a bit when I was a kid. Mostly to my brother who was more of a trouble maker than me. At least he was the one that got caught being a trouble maker.

Not only did Kidd Bully and put down grown men in front of others. He made them practice on Christmas. That's fucked. You don't do that. The day after Christmas maybe.
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The way it sounded Christmas Eve and Christmas day and that was just to punish the players, make them feel small and out of control. The inverse being the important part to Kidd was obviously that he was bigger and in control. The whole thing stinks of someone with their own issues and I hope he's worked through those, so he doesn't do damage to anyone else. I wonder what Kidd's home life was like as a child. I have actually met his father on several occasions and he was really nice. I've met Kidd a few times and he was incredibly nice and personable. Maybe both are very mercurial or believe that abusive behavior (because that's what we're discussing) is acceptable behind closed doors.
 
PCmor7 said:
Not nearly as much as it used to be, especially with us being more aware now of mental health and the possible consequences. The days of the Junction Boys and Bobby Knight are more a thing of the past, and, IMO, that's a good thing.
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Which is significant, because much (make that all) of the "woke" judgement is through today's perspective. The context of what was commonplace at the time should be weighed.

I've been both a coach and a manager on my job. Personally, I've found I get much better results addressing a current problem and when something challenging comes up in the future using positive reinforcement or just being straight up with employees and workers. It's not as easy as just turning to animus for a coach, but it's better both in the short and long terms, IMO.
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I don't disagree, but consider this: Giannis and Middleton are arguably the two biggest draft successes among the current generation of NBA players. Kidd coached them very early in their careers. His motivational tactics cannot be so easily dismissed, given how well those two turned out. It's entirely possible to be a so-so coach but a great motivator in the coaching role.

Do you think Kidd would be better off driving Larry Sanders out of basketball or taking some time and finding what made things click and respond for him?
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Larry Sanders would have driven himself out of basketball, IMO. One thing missing from the article is why exactly was Sanders targeted in that practice? I suspect he didn't bring either the effort or attitude that Kidd wanted. People should be taking a closer look at that aspect. This whole social media crap is like refs missing the first call and catching the retaliation.

PCmor7 said:
Wow. Someone with emotional disorders is a "mental midget"?
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In the context of pro sports, yes. Competitors are ruthless. It's the coach's job to prepare players to handle that.
 
Mediocre Man said:
I’ve coached for 25 plus years. I’ve been in upper management for longer, and I’ve never called someone a piece of shit or verbally abused someone to the point that they broke mentally.
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So you're saying that you are 80 years old???
 
And...

Ironically, we had one of the nicest, most easy going coaches in Stotts, and most here couldn't wait to see him gone.

And Dame was in favor of having Kidd coach here. Weird.
 
PCmor7 said:
Jason Kidd getting scorched on social media right now. This started it, but now a lot of tweets linking it to his domestic abuse.

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theres absolutely nothing wrong with the way he coaches, that seems like european coaching style

players these days are snowflakes, they have to much empowerment and shit like that wont fly in europe, otherwise youre good as gone

shut the fuck up, act like a grown up man you are and do your fucking job, simple as that!
 
nba players wouldnt last long in europe with that kind of behaviour

thats why i say coaches in europe coach their players, while coaches in nba manage their players
 
handiman said:
And...

Ironically, we had one of the nicest, most easy going coaches in Stotts, and most here couldn't wait to see him gone.

And Dame was in favor of having Kidd coach here. Weird.
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Just because people wanted him gone wasn't because he was too nice. He wasn't a good coach. Don't confuse the two and try to pigeon hole the narrative. Especially when its so patently, fox-news like false.
 
Strenuus said:
Just because people wanted him gone wasn't because he was too nice. He wasn't a good coach. Don't confuse the two and try to pigeon hole the narrative. Especially when its so patently, fox-news like false.
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I didn't say he was a bad coach because he's nice. I said it's ironic because of the polar opposites. The interesting mental exercise is in analyzing the pros and cons of the two approaches.
 
Natebishop3 said:
What players?
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Gannis was pissed when he got fired…


Kidd told ESPN's Ramona Shelburnethat Antetokounmpo called him upon learning of his dismissal, offering to go to ownership on his coach's behalf.

"He called me and said, 'Coach, this isn't right what they're about to do, but [they] are gonna let you go,'" Kidd said.
 
Mr. Robot said:
theres absolutely nothing wrong with the way he coaches, that seems like european coaching style

players these days are snowflakes, they have to much empowerment and shit like that wont fly in europe, otherwise youre good as gone

shut the fuck up, act like a grown up man you are and do your fucking job, simple as that!
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Treat them like grown men.
 
Pardon me for going off a bit earlier. This happens to be a subject on which I'm very passionate and I occasionally get fired up about it.

Like I said, I've coached and I've been a corporate (middle) manager. I've also been a mentor to people of all ages, mostly very young but some even older than me. I've also had the opportunity to be around a lot of successful coaches and just successful people. I don't take issue with being tough or demanding, but I've seen and experienced enough that I know you don't have to treat people like Kidd did to win. You don't have to be a genius to employ a little self-restraint and find alternatives that work even better.

I almost quit college my first week because of anxiety that was brought about to large degree through bullying, and I was an honor student and good athlete with a strong support system at home. Some people have no help at all or guidance handling challenges.

Nothing will open your eyes to life like seeing a kid you invested in when he was 9 coming out of a poor family with very little structure who is getting picked on by other kids and made to feel he didn't matter by his teachers and find ways to make him love himself and life and then to find out years later he succumbed to his demons, got involved in drugs or alcohol and died of an overdose or suicide. Twenty-five years younger than you. I've seen stuff like that. It really impacts your approach to life and how you interact with others.
 
Minstrel said:
Ironic that you say that, considering that you're in favor of coaches acting like raging baby men.
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there are harsh coaches (people who dont understand would call them different names, like you did)

they dont hate you, they want you to become the best player you can be and you should embrace it
 
Mr. Robot said:
what about jason kidds coaching style says hes not treating them like a grown men
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Would you treat a grown man like that? That's the real question.

I wouldn't treat a HUMAN BEING like that. Nothing is so important to degrade another human being for.

I am not commenting any further. I just wanted to say that.
 
i remember nurk retweeting a post where a bball coach hit his player and dame said hed hit him back, which is so fucked up

such a snowflakes todays nba players
 
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