OFFICIAL Around The NBA Thread...... August

[SlyPokerDog]

Another prediction of us missing the playoffs........
https://fivethirtyeight.com/feature...ba-projections-can-tell-us-about-next-season/

View attachment 21974

WRONG! It's a prediction showing how great of a lottery pick we're going to get.

 

[THE HCP]

Why so aggressive? I thought you are a cool guy

You thought correctly.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

So he must be an NBA player because he's won games in Summer League?

Try not to straw-man me.

If he's struggling on offense and defense he still helps the team because he's unselfish?

Every player outside of maybe LeBron James "struggles" at some aspects of offense and some aspects of defense. Steph Curry is lousy at defending and scoring in the post. Guess he can't "help the team" (see, straw-manning is easy).

He's not a victim of overinflated expectations. A lot of people who pointed out why they don't like him as a player are still observing those very same things.

It just strikes me that he was overpraised last year and underpraised this year. And there are players (like T-Rob) who aren't NBA players, who do things that draw the eye and get praise, and others (like, say, Matt Bonner) who look kind of laughable but manage to be part of successful teams.

Letting Ed go was to open up minutes for Collins.

I must've missed the part where Olshey said that definitively. Or did he just communicate that to you personally?

Not being able to get shots off and being poor defender is pretty damning.

He's not INCAPABLE of getting shots off all over the court.

He's fine in the pick and pop - something Ed was totally helpless at. And in fact, Ed was pretty helpless at post-up scoring too. Also, our Summer League team was great defensively, and he was a featured player, so clearly he can be part of a great defensive team (just like Zach Randolph for Memphis). Finally, do you really think Swanigan will be asked to be a leading scorer for us in the regular season the way he was in SL? So actually the little things he did well (set screens, move the ball, rebound) are much more important than his weaknesses (scoring in the post, moving his feet on D).

All of us want him to succeed, however it's split on people really searching hard for enough positives to justify the pick, and the people that predicted these problems for him before he was drafted.

Count me among those who wanted Jordan Bell and were mystified by the pick. I have never changed my view that Bell would've been the better pick. But this post was about whether or not Kyle Kuzma should've been our pick, and I'm not convinced he should.

 

[handiman]

That doesn’t make much sense... That team had “lots” of defensive zeroes, but made them look good. How does that add up? Scottie and MJ played defense for 5?
I know this will come across snarky, but I just don’t get your comment. A bunch of defensive zeroes all looked good on defense...

Armstrong, Harper, Kerr, Hodges, Longley, King... And probably lots more that don't come immediately to mind. Half that team was guys you wouldn't point to as average, let alone good, defenders. Yet like with Detlef in Seattle, they played good team defense in Chicago's scheme.

And yes, Pippen pretty much did play defense for 5. Jordan was pretty damn good at that end once he took defense seriously, but Pippen was the man, no question.

Yeah, I'm sure your 25-year old eye test is flawless compared to statistical analysis.

You realize BPM takes into account team performance? So you're one reason to try to invalidate it doesn't hold up.

Analytics get it wrong far more than my eye test. They're a good supplement but never the ultimate answer you like to believe. Kids these days.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Armstrong, Harper, Kerr, Hodges, Longley, King... And probably lots more that don't come immediately to mind. Half that team was guys you wouldn't point to as average, let alone good, defenders. Yet like with Detlef in Seattle, they played good team defense in Chicago's scheme.

And yes, Pippen pretty much did play defense for 5. Jordan was pretty damn good at that end once he took defense seriously, but Pippen was the man, no question.



Analytics get it wrong far more than my eye test. They're a good supplement but never the ultimate answer you like to believe. Kids these days.

I never think analytics tell the whole story, but that team did have 2 great defenders and always had 2-3 other guys who did their job on defense. I think all of them were basically average or better. It may seem like they were worse than they were because teams tried to get them in match ups they liked as they didn’t want to go straight against Jordan / Pippen but I think it’s a stretch to say they were all bad defenders but somehow made one of the best defensive teams ever...

Obviously there were ‘bad’ defenders there but it wasn’t a lot and they didn’t play them together very often.

 

[dviss1]

Yes i saw it, i also saw that he looked in worse shape this year in Summer League than he was last year bro

That whole narrative is a load of BS.

 

[THE HCP]

Now here’s an airport pic I took today that is finally in focus.
Maybe we’re bringing him in for camp?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Now here’s an airport pic I took today that is finally in focus.
Maybe we’re bringing him in for camp?

Did he teach you anything?

 

[THE HCP]

 

[handiman]

I never think analytics tell the whole story, but that team did have 2 great defenders and always had 2-3 other guys who did their job on defense.

No argument there. They weren't a team like either of the two championship Detroit runs, where pretty much everyone except Rip was an aggressive defensive presence. Chicago was more like the Heatles, with two exceptional defenders and everyone else fitting the scheme. Maybe Grant/Rodman is comparable to Bosh in that role.

I think all of them were basically average or better. It may seem like they were worse than they were because teams tried to get them in match ups they liked as they didn’t want to go straight against Jordan / Pippen but I think it’s a stretch to say they were all bad defenders but somehow made one of the best defensive teams ever...

You're being very generous if you consider those guys to be average defenders. That or you don't think much of the defense played by the average NBA dude. Add Kukoc to the list... That team was full of guys you'd love to isolate, but they covered all their bases. In a sense, I'm defending Rodman as one of the guys who helped cover for the weaker defenders, but I group him in with those that Pippen and Jordan covered for, more often that not.

Rodman was the only player I enjoyed watching on that Detroit team.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Now here’s an airport pic I took today that is finally in focus.
Maybe we’re bringing him in for camp?

He was good in Hot Tub Time Machine.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

No argument there. They weren't a team like either of the two championship Detroit runs, where pretty much everyone except Rip was an aggressive defensive presence. Chicago was more like the Heatles, with two exceptional defenders and everyone else fitting the scheme. Maybe Grant/Rodman is comparable to Bosh in that role.



You're being very generous if you consider those guys to be average defenders. That or you don't think much of the defense played by the average NBA dude. Add Kukoc to the list... That team was full of guys you'd love to isolate, but they covered all their bases. In a sense, I'm defending Rodman as one of the guys who helped cover for the weaker defenders, but I group him in with those that Pippen and Jordan covered for, more often that not.

Rodman was the only player I enjoyed watching on that Detroit team.

I see your point. I know Scottie and MJ were great on defense and covered up for mistakes. I just think that the late 90’s version of that bulls team was some of the best defense the nba’s Ever seen and I guess I feel like it’s hard to believe that a team that good on defense was playing a bunch of bad defensive players.

In my opinion defensive analytics seem a ways behind the offensive ones. I see “defensive” stats all the time of guys and it’ll say they are bad on defense or good on defense and I’ll think, it doesn’t really seem right. I think it’s because defense is so reliant on team mates and schemes.

 

[e_blazer]

Now here’s an airport pic I took today that is finally in focus.
Maybe we’re bringing him in for camp?

Your Photoshop skills are getting better.

 

[dviss1]

No argument there. They weren't a team like either of the two championship Detroit runs, where pretty much everyone except Rip was an aggressive defensive presence. Chicago was more like the Heatles, with two exceptional defenders and everyone else fitting the scheme. Maybe Grant/Rodman is comparable to Bosh in that role.



You're being very generous if you consider those guys to be average defenders. That or you don't think much of the defense played by the average NBA dude. Add Kukoc to the list... That team was full of guys you'd love to isolate, but they covered all their bases. In a sense, I'm defending Rodman as one of the guys who helped cover for the weaker defenders, but I group him in with those that Pippen and Jordan covered for, more often that not.

Rodman was the only player I enjoyed watching on that Detroit team.

I just want to say you're the only human I've ever heard make this argument.

IMO it doesn't hold water.

 

[handiman]

I just want to say you're the only human I've ever heard make this argument.

IMO it doesn't hold water.

Which argument exactly? About Rodman or the other Bulls?

 

[handiman]

Malone vs Rodman (CHI):
https://www.basketball-reference.co...ennis+Rodman&player_id2=rodmade01&idx=players

regular season head-to-head:
22 & 7, 0.438
36 & 15, 0.500
27 & 11, 0.556
35 & 11, 0.551
30 & 8, 0.667
34 & 9, 0.455
30 & 10, 1.000
18 & 10, 0.381
avg: 29.0 & 10.1, 0.569 (26.7/10.0 avg those 3 years)

playoff head-to-head:
23 & 15, 0.455
20 & 13, 0.300
37 & 10, 0.517
23 & 10, 0.474
19 & 7, 0.412
21 & 7, 0.467
21 & 14, 0.360
16 & 12, 0.313
22 & 3, 0.727
21 & 14, 0.476
39 & 9, 0.630
31 & 11, 0.579
avg: 24.4 & 10.4, 0.476 (~26/11 playoff avg those 2 years)

I don't see how anyone can paint a picture of Rodman being a great defender in Chicago, when he did a below average job against his main competitor during that period. (Feel free to run similar numbers for others such as Barkley, that was all the time I had.) The playoffs are Rodman's saving grace, with all but three of the games being a struggle for Malone. (The epitome of a lazy defender, only turning it on when it counts!) That's probably a big part of what people remember, with regular season play fading into the background. Even then, he barely held Malone below his playoff average.

 

[riverman]

Malone was in my view one of the greatest PFs to play the game....he respected Rodman....I think you've made your point handiman that you didn't like Rodman.....at this point you're beating a dead horse....my original post was that great players aren't exclusively offensive minded players...I mentioned 3 guys and it was in reference to Zach Collins....time to move on. I completely disagree about Rodman but that was not the talking point....I'm sure a lot of Bulls fans didn't like him either. I couldn't stand the Bulls..

 

[handiman]

I think you've made your point handiman that you didn't like Rodman.....

Except that I said I did like him earlier in his career, when he cared about more facets of the game than just rebounding.

But hey, anything to avoid addressing the numbers I laid out, right?

 

[THE HCP]

AND SO IT BEGINS............

 

[Propagandist]

AND SO IT BEGINS............

That tattoo made me grimace.

 

[Labinot41]

Offtopic: i just watched some Career Highlights from Dame, is there the Game Thread from Game 6 against the Rockets here Haha? I can't find it

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Offtopic: i just watched some Career Highlights from Dame, is there the Game Thread from Game 6 against the Rockets here Haha? I can't find it

http://www.sportstwo.com/threads/ro...rs-5-2-14-friday-7-30-pm-pst-espn-kgw.262209/

 

[Labinot41]

http://www.sportstwo.com/threads/ro...rs-5-2-14-friday-7-30-pm-pst-espn-kgw.262209/

Thx man

 

[THE HCP]

That tattoo made me grimace.

Had you not seen that before? He’s had it for like 14 years.

 

[Hoopguru]

That tattoo made me grimace.

Me too...man the guy that tattoos, he's the "chosen 1".
That guy from waco Texas had the same tattoo on his arm!

 

[Propagandist]

Had you not seen that before? He’s had it for like 14 years.

I've been avoiding naked LeBron photos for as long as I can remember......can.no.longer.resist!

 

[Propagandist]

Me too...man the guy that tattoos, he's the "chosen 1".
That guy from waco Texas had the same tattoo on his arm!

Only thing worse I could imagine would be BLESSED FOREVER on the inner biceps..........

 

[Boob-No-More]

I've been avoiding naked LeBron photos for as long as I can remember......can.no.longer.resist!

You should hit up @HCP. He has his own private stash of naked LeBron photos.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, I'm not sure which applies here), like most other HCP photos they are all blurry, and all taken at airports.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

Malone vs Rodman (CHI):
https://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id1_hint=karl malone&player_id1_select=Karl Malone&player_id1=malonka01&idx=players&player_id2_select=Dennis Rodman&player_id2=rodmade01&idx=players

regular season head-to-head:
22 & 7, 0.438
36 & 15, 0.500
27 & 11, 0.556
35 & 11, 0.551
30 & 8, 0.667
34 & 9, 0.455
30 & 10, 1.000
18 & 10, 0.381
avg: 29.0 & 10.1, 0.569 (26.7/10.0 avg those 3 years)

playoff head-to-head:
23 & 15, 0.455
20 & 13, 0.300
37 & 10, 0.517
23 & 10, 0.474
19 & 7, 0.412
21 & 7, 0.467
21 & 14, 0.360
16 & 12, 0.313
22 & 3, 0.727
21 & 14, 0.476
39 & 9, 0.630
31 & 11, 0.579
avg: 24.4 & 10.4, 0.476 (~26/11 playoff avg those 2 years)

I don't see how anyone can paint a picture of Rodman being a great defender in Chicago, when he did a below average job against his main competitor during that period. (Feel free to run similar numbers for others such as Barkley, that was all the time I had.) The playoffs are Rodman's saving grace, with all but three of the games being a struggle for Malone. (The epitome of a lazy defender, only turning it on when it counts!) That's probably a big part of what people remember, with regular season play fading into the background. Even then, he barely held Malone below his playoff average.

Horrible argument.

And if you don't know why we don't even have to go further.

 

[BonesJones]

Try not to straw-man me.



Every player outside of maybe LeBron James "struggles" at some aspects of offense and some aspects of defense. Steph Curry is lousy at defending and scoring in the post. Guess he can't "help the team" (see, straw-manning is easy).


It just strikes me that he was overpraised last year and underpraised this year. And there are players (like T-Rob) who aren't NBA players, who do things that draw the eye and get praise, and others (like, say, Matt Bonner) who look kind of laughable but manage to be part of successful teams.



I must've missed the part where Olshey said that definitively. Or did he just communicate that to you personally?



He's not INCAPABLE of getting shots off all over the court.

He's fine in the pick and pop - something Ed was totally helpless at. And in fact, Ed was pretty helpless at post-up scoring too. Also, our Summer League team was great defensively, and he was a featured player, so clearly he can be part of a great defensive team (just like Zach Randolph for Memphis). Finally, do you really think Swanigan will be asked to be a leading scorer for us in the regular season the way he was in SL? So actually the little things he did well (set screens, move the ball, rebound) are much more important than his weaknesses (scoring in the post, moving his feet on D).



Count me among those who wanted Jordan Bell and were mystified by the pick. I have never changed my view that Bell would've been the better pick. But this post was about whether or not Kyle Kuzma should've been our pick, and I'm not convinced he should.

You can nitpick to find positives in anyone. I'd rather look at the full picture.

No, the little things aren't more important than the bigger things. That's why they're the little things.