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I would like to see Vodoo or Shapecity in on this Splitter talk...because Tribute I have to think you're off in your assesment is off. If Splitter is as good as you say he is, why isnt anyone in a dead heat for his services? Why is he probably going to pull out of the draft? You might be overrating him by about 43 (lol) This is going to sound odd but i agree with MRJ.

peace
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">I responded to this post and something happened and my post didnt show. I'm very angry right now.
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I'll just give you the gist of what I said since it's kind of late.

Macabbi Tel Aviv would beat all of those teams you just named. And it probably wouldnt even be close.</div>

First of all, I've just got to ask, are you a foreigner? Only someone from Europe could possibly be blind enough to think that Maccabi Tel Aviv is better than the University of North Carolina. Name me one player on Macabbi Tel Aviv who is better than Marvin Williams, Sean May, Rashad McCants, or Raymond Felton. You even have Jawad Williams and Jackie Manuel on UNC who could go anywhere from late first to the second round in the draft. That's potentially six NBA players, two or three of which are going to be stars in the league. How can you possibly say to me with a straight face that a team with Sarunas Jasikevicius and Anthony Parker (two mediocre college players) is better than a team loaded with future NBA players? I could give you fifteen teams that are more talented than Macabbi Tel Aviv, easily.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats dont mean much when talking about International prospects. Tiago Splitter is probably the best powerforward prospect in the draft and his stats arent hot either.</div>

Do you know why statistics don't matter? It's because their bodies are impressive and they are athletically gifted. It's not because they are better. Those same players wouldn't be getting it done in the NCAA either. Just look at Erazem Lorbek. He played his Freshman year at Michigan State and was a backup for Paul Davis. After a horrible failure of a season (5.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg), Lorbek went back to Lorbek and was all of a sudden a big time player and pro prospect.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who cares if the leading scorers for Real Madrid were former mid-rate college players. There have been players who went undrafted and became quite good(Ben Wallace, Brad Miller).</div>

Brad Miller was a hell of a player at Purdue, and Wallace had a succesful college career as well. Just because they were undrafted it doesn't mean that they didn't play NCAA. I think it's a big deal if your best players were just mediocre players in the NCAA. Isn't that what this argument is about, which leagues are better? Well, if the NCAA sends their best players to the NBA and their second-tier players over to Euroleague, wouldn't that make them better than Euroleague?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I had this nice, long, detailed response to those stats you brought up...Granger's stats are impressive compared to Gelabale's but that is misleading. Gelabale wasnt the main offensive reference on his team unlike Granger. So he didnt have as many chances to score. Who knows how well Gelabale would have done if he had the green light like Granger had?</div>

Forgive Danny Granger for actually suceeding. I mean, couldn't I give you any random NCAA backup player's statistics and say "Well, he wasn't the main option on his team, so you can't look at his stats". Why wasn't he his team's main option? I'll tell you this much, if Granger was on Real Madrid, he sure as hell would be.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I simply think Gelabale at the 30th pick is more reasonable than Granger at the 8th pick especially considering we have more serious issues in our frontline. Gelabale looks like he's capable of doing everything Granger can do minus the passing with a little worse defense. Euroleague is definetely better than NCAA. Think of it this way: Tiago Splitter and Fran Vazquez are widely considered to be the best powerforwards in this draft. Equal to or better than the NCAA big men who are the best big men the NCAA had to offer this year and their just role players on their respective teams(although Splitter could do much more he's being used as a role player for now). Hope that helps.
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So he's capable of doing everything he can do minus the stuff that counts? Believe me, if Granger's defense wasn't as great as it was, and he had no passing game, then he would not be getting consideration as a #8 pick. His scoring, ball handling, and rebounding are impressive, but he's set apart with his defense.

The best big man in the NCAA is Andrew Bogut, and there is no Euroleague player better than Bogut. Second of all, that comparison to NCAA big men is so foolish that words can not even describe. You are confusing talent with height. Splitter and Vazquez are hotter prospects than Diogu, May, and Simien because they are taller. Ask any scout, General Manager, or coach in America, and they will tell you that if Diogu, May, and Simien were all 6-11 then they would be favorites for the #1 pick in the draft. Read the scouting reports on the guys and you'll see that the weaknesses are far and few outside of height. It's just the height that kills these guys. And just incase you hadn't noticed, the best big men in the NBA (Shaq and Duncan) are NCAA graduates.

Marvin Williams is the sixth man on his NCAA team, and he is potentially the #1 pick overall. There are also currently players like Rudy Gay, Shannon Brown, and LaMarcus Aldridge who are fourth or fifth options on their NCAA clubs but would challenge the #1 pick this year. So don't give me the line, "and they're just role players on their respective teams", because you know just as well as I do that point is completely irrelevant.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tiago Splitter will probably pull out if he doesnt get a top ten guarantee and I'm pretty sure someone will give it to him. If he does indeed pull out I'd probably like to have Johan Petro. We need a center. He's a little risky(not Taft risky but he's no sure thing like Splitter or Vazquez) but he's oozing with potential. Now I hope this gets posted...
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At this point, I am 110% positive that no team will give Tiago Splitter a top ten guarantee. You can take that to the bank. I think it's laughable that you only bring up international players for the Knicks. Why do you say he's not "Taft risky"? If anything, he's more risky. He doesn't get any considerable minutes for his team overseas, he's extremely raw and is not as skilled as Taft, his body is not as ready for the NBA as Taft's, and he has the same questions about his work ethic. How is he not more risky than Chris Taft? Why no mention about Channing Frye either? NCAA players aren't good enough?

You know, there's a reason that the majority of the NBA players came from the NCAA, there's a reason why you always hear people say of NCAA players "He won't make the NBA, but he could have a nice Euroleague career", there's a reason why several Michigan State backups have made better careers for themselves overseas than they ever had in the NCAA, there's a reason why many Euroleague <u>stars</u> are extremely mediocre NCAA players.

I don't know, my thoughts on the issue are so scattered it's not even funny. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone suggest that the Euroleague was on the same level as the NCAA, at least not anyone who wasn't from Europe, so I'm not to best one in the world to debate this issue.
 
Euroleague and NCAA....depends whos rules you're playing by, both competitive leagues
 
Well Voodoo Child...I had a strong response. But then something happened...again. I finished my long, detailed post and then I was notified that I wasnt logged in and when I logged I got some stupid error. I'm just telling you so you dont think I dont have a response because I do. I'm just too tired to try to type it over right now. Maybe later. Sorry.
 
I can't believe what I'm hearing from you; it just cracks me up. I really don't know what to say about your posts. You're the first person I've heard that dislikes Granger's game, and the first person I've ever heard say Euroleague is better than NCAA. You do know that the players that usually don't get drafted end up in either the NBDL or Europe. There's guys like Spitter and Vazquez are padding their stats against the NCAA players that aren't good enough to play in the NBA, and you're saying Euroleague is better than college ball? c'mon now! College ball is ten times better than Euroleague any time of the day, year, whatever. I'd much rather have a proven college player over a guy that plays against mediocre NCAA guys any day of the week. I bet someone like Kentucky's Randolph Morris(averaged 8 pts and 4 boards) who had a mediocre year this year could go overseas and dominate against lesser known competition. I wouldn't take a chance on a guy from overseas ever, especially the Knicks who are known for taking players who end up being busts. Why not take a college player that dominated such as Antoine Wright, Danny Granger, or Ike Diogu.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Well Voodoo Child...I had a strong response. But then something happened...again. I finished my long, detailed post and then I was notified that I wasnt logged in and when I logged I got some stupid error. I'm just telling you so you dont think I dont have a response because I do. I'm just too tired to try to type it over right now. Maybe later. Sorry.</div>

Just a suggestion, copy your post before you go to post it. That way you can just repost it if you get logged out. You could also stay permanently logged in, or you could write posts in a word document and save them as you go along.

Look forward to reading what you have to say in response.
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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting UKOwnstheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">especially the Knicks who are known for taking players who end up being busts. Why not take a college player that dominated such as Antoine Wright, Danny Granger, or Ike Diogu.</div>
In recent years, what players might these be?

Why would the Knicks take another power forward added to their plethora? Sure Diogu is a special player, but in terms of size, we already have enough power forwards his size like Malik Rose and Mike Sweetney.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">In recent years, what players might these be? </div>
Maciej Lampe, Walter McCarty, Frederic Weis, John Thomas, and Donnell Harvey.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would the Knicks take another power forward added to their plethora? Sure Diogu is a special player, but in terms of size, we already have enough power forwards his size like Malik Rose and Mike Sweetney.</div>
I'm just saying these are a few college players that I'd rather have over Vazquez and Spitter. Wouldn't you love to have a Granger or Wright? Two proven college players that has really impressed many.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting UKOwnstheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">Maciej Lampe, Walter McCarty, Frederic Weis, John Thomas, and Donnell Harvey.</div>
First of all, how in the world was Maciej Lampe a bust? He?s barely gotten an opportunity to play in the league and has a career high of 37 games and he qualifies as a bust? At age 20, he still has a lot of basketball left in him and with the skills he has he can turn out to be a very good player. That?s like me saying Darko Milicic is a bust because Larry Brown has never played him more than 37 games despite the fact he?s only 19 years old and caught the eye of many general managers to consider him a second overall pick. You are aware of time some players need to be productive, right? If we can truly judge a player based on what they do in their sophomore season, than Jermaine O?Neal, Eric Snow, Jeff McInnis, and a ton of other players would busts. Also, the Knicks got Lampe with their 30th pick. Lampe was thought to go into the lottey and the Knicks got a steal with a second round pick.

Frederick Weis was not a bust simply because he never played in the league. Again, you can?t determine whether the player is a bust or not if he?s never gotten a fair opportunity to prove himself. Weis was a bad pick because he never played for the Knicks and decided to stay overseas. He could have turned out decent, but was a bad pick in hindsight.

I guess you can call Walter McCarty, John Thomas and Donnell Harvey busts, but they obviously weren?t expected to be more than role players being drafted so late and all, but even if they were, you?re bringing up players that didn?t turn out so well tops at 9 years ago. To me, that?s not really recent, but that still doesn?t mean ?they?re known for taking busts? as you said. Every team in the NBA has made some questionable moves in the draft in the past and whenever the Knicks got into the lottery, they have gotten pretty decent players such as Nene, Sweetney, and even last year they got Ariza with the 43rd pick. When most people think of ?known for taking busts? teams such as Cleveland, Chicago, or the L.A. Clippers come to mind, not the Knicks whose late first rounders in nine, eight, and five years ago didn?t pan out.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm just saying these are a few college players that I'd rather have over Vazquez and Spitter. Wouldn't you love to have a Granger or Wright? Two proven college players that has really impressed many.</div>
I absolutely would love to have Granger, Wright over Vazquez and Splitter. I just didn?t understand where Ike Diogu came in.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, how in the world was Maciej Lampe a bust? He?s barely gotten an opportunity to play in the league and has a career high of 37 games and he qualifies as a bust? At age 20, he still has a lot of basketball left in him and with the skills he has he can turn out to be a very good player. That?s like me saying Darko Milicic is a bust because Larry Brown has never played him more than 37 games despite the fact he?s only 19 years old and caught the eye of many general managers to consider him a second overall pick. You are aware of time some players need to be productive, right? If we can truly judge a player based on what they do in their sophomore season, than Jermaine O?Neal, Eric Snow, Jeff McInnis, and a ton of other players would busts. Also, the Knicks got Lampe with their 30th pick. Lampe was thought to go into the lottey and the Knicks got a steal with a second round pick.</div>
If he was expected to be a lottery pick, doesn't that mean that he would be expected to give whatever team he plays for a little bit of offense at least? He's been in the league two years and has already been on Phoenix twice, Knicks once, and New Orleans once. Doesn't that tell you that something is up with him? He isn't playing like everyone has expected him to, so I'm calling him a bust for right now.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Frederick Weis was not a bust simply because he never played in the league. Again, you can?t determine whether the player is a bust or not if he?s never gotten a fair opportunity to prove himself. Weis was a bad pick because he never played for the Knicks and decided to stay overseas. He could have turned out decent, but was a bad pick in hindsight.</div>
That's simply the Knicks' fault for drafting him. You all could've chose the likes of Ron Artest, Andrei Kirilenko, or James Posey over Weis so that was simply a bad organzation decision.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I absolutely would love to have Granger, Wright over Vazquez and Splitter. I just didn?t understand where Ike Diogu came in.</div>
I was stating that Ike Diogu dominated in his college days by scoring in double-digits in every game at Arizona State. This guy averaged a total of 21 points per game in his and averaged 8 boards a game in his three years at Arizona State. I know I'd love to have him on the Cavs even though we are set at PF.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I guess you can call Walter McCarty, John Thomas and Donnell Harvey busts, but they obviously weren?t expected to be more than role players being drafted so late and all, but even if they were, you?re bringing up players that didn?t turn out so well tops at 9 years ago. To me, that?s not really recent</div>

Here is the problem with that. You want him to limit his arguments to recent players, yet when he brings up recent players (Maceij Lampe) you say that he just needs more time and minutes. Well, by that logic, any player that has been drafted recently should not be considered a bust yet, which makes your challenge to him to give you a recent bust an impossible task.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting UKOwnstheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">I can't believe what I'm hearing from you; it just cracks me up. I really don't know what to say about your posts. You're the first person I've heard that dislikes Granger's game, and the first person I've ever heard say Euroleague is better than NCAA. You do know that the players that usually don't get drafted end up in either the NBDL or Europe. There's guys like Spitter and Vazquez are padding their stats against the NCAA players that aren't good enough to play in the NBA, and you're saying Euroleague is better than college ball? c'mon now! College ball is ten times better than Euroleague any time of the day, year, whatever. I'd much rather have a proven college player over a guy that plays against mediocre NCAA guys any day of the week. I bet someone like Kentucky's Randolph Morris(averaged 8 pts and 4 boards) who had a mediocre year this year could go overseas and dominate against lesser known competition. I wouldn't take a chance on a guy from overseas ever, especially the Knicks who are known for taking players who end up being busts. Why not take a college player that dominated such as Antoine Wright, Danny Granger, or Ike Diogu.</div>

Your opinion would be respected if you had some experience watching the Euroleague, I doubt you've had
 
Its hard to consider Lampe close to a bust, since he wasn't even drafted in the 1st round, also, Young players develop in their 3rd and 4th year, like Dirk, Kirilenko, T'Mac, Kobe, and late in Jermaine O'Neil's career

I don't see Lampe as a super star, but I think he could be a very good starter in the future
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting UKOwnstheSEC:</div><div class="quote_post">If he was expected to be a lottery pick, doesn't that mean that he would be expected to give whatever team he plays for a little bit of offense at least? He's been in the league two years and has already been on Phoenix twice, Knicks once, and New Orleans once. Doesn't that tell you that something is up with him? He isn't playing like everyone has expected him to, so I'm calling him a bust for right now.</div>
No, it doesn?t mean that. If you?re a lottery pick, it means that you have the potential to become a good player. Lampe has all the raw skills to one day become a good player. Isiah Thomas wasn?t really high on him so he let him go in the Marbury deal and Phoenix didn?t need his services after watching Nash in action. Until he gets 20 minutes per and plays a significant number of games is when we should judge him. I guess Darko is a bust for now too.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's simply the Knicks' fault for drafting him. You all could've chose the likes of Ron Artest, Andrei Kirilenko, or James Posey over Weis so that was simply a bad organzation decision.</div>
How was it the Knicks fault? How were they supposed to know he wouldn?t return? Ewing was declining and getting injured all the time so the logical thing would be to take a center. Why would the Knicks draft Kirilenko, Posey, or Artest when they had Larry Johnson and Latrell Sprewell on the roster?

UKOwnstheSec - may you please make a list of the teams known for taking busts?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I was stating that Ike Diogu dominated in his college days by scoring in double-digits in every game at Arizona State. This guy averaged a total of 21 points per game in his and averaged 8 boards a game in his three years at Arizona State. I know I'd love to have him on the Cavs even though we are set at PF.</div>
Why would you do that? The Knicks are more than set at power forward and adding Diogu to the roster would make half of their active roster power forwards, and three of those six would be less than 6?9. I like Diogu, and if we didn?t have so many power forwards, I would definitely welcome him on my team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Here is the problem with that. You want him to limit his arguments to recent players, yet when he brings up recent players (Maceij Lampe) you say that he just needs more time and minutes. Well, by that logic, any player that has been drafted recently should not be considered a bust yet, which makes your challenge to him to give you a recent bust an impossible task.</div>
I see what you?re saying, but I just don?t think you can judge a player who has barely played. Even if Lampe does end up a bust, I still don?t think it means ?the Knicks are known for taking busts? as UKownstheSEC said. They grabbed lottery talent with their 30th pick. There are hundreds of players who have been failures in the second round so does that means their teams are known for taking busts? If the Knicks got him with their 9th pick, than maybe that label could be put on them.
 
Players who dominated college aren't even close to a guarantee to dominate in the pros, check out: Tim Thomas, Nazr Mohammed, Kurt Thomas, Mike Sweetney. That's just a list of Knicks (including Nazr ex Knicks) there's plenty more in/not in the league.

I don't think you can call Lampe a bust yet , how would you know whether he is a bust or not at age 20, 95% of the guys in the league didn't produce by age 20 and your not gonna call them busts. The label bust is all about expectations of the player, if a player is expected to be a role player and is one than he's not a bust.
 
Well...I found the strength to retype my response. It's ridiculously long so good luck. Here it is...

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, I've just got to ask, are you a foreigner? Only someone from Europe could possibly be blind enough to think that Maccabi Tel Aviv is better than the University of North Carolina. Name me one player on Macabbi Tel Aviv who is better than Marvin Williams, Sean May, Rashad McCants, or Raymond Felton. You even have Jawad Williams and Jackie Manuel on UNC who could go anywhere from late first to the second round in the draft. That's potentially six NBA players, two or three of which are going to be stars in the league. How can you possibly say to me with a straight face that a team with Sarunas Jasikevicius and Anthony Parker (two mediocre college players) is better than a team loaded with future NBA players? I could give you fifteen teams that are more talented than Macabbi Tel Aviv, easily.</div>

No to your question. I was born in Brooklyn, NY. You want me to name you one player on Maccabi better than those guys. I'd say Anthony Parker. He could probably do all the work on the offensive end unless you think the undersized, not so athletic Rashad McCants can contain him(I certainly hope you dont think so). Why do you keep bringing up "mediocre college player" line? Who cares if they were lousy players God knows how many years ago? It's irrelevant. All that matters is how good they are now. You probably could give me a long list of teams more talented than Macabbi and I wouldnt dispute it. I probably could but I wont because that's not what we were talking about. We were talking about who can beat who and Maccabi will beat any team on that long list of yours.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Do you know why statistics don't matter? It's because their bodies are impressive and they are athletically gifted. It's not because they are better. Those same players wouldn't be getting it done in the NCAA either. Just look at Erazem Lorbek. He played his Freshman year at Michigan State and was a backup for Paul Davis. After a horrible failure of a season (5.6 ppg, 3.0 rpg), Lorbek went back to Lorbek and was all of a sudden a big time player and pro prospect.</div>

You say impressive bodies and "athletically gifted" then bring up Erazem Lorbek??? His body is not impressive or "athletically gifted" by any stretch of the imagination. The reason why he played so poorly at Michigan is because he was too soft. He didnt like contact and couldnt deal with it. He could have since changed his mentality and gotten more aggressive which would have helped his game alot. And he didnt become a pro prospect once again as soon as he went back to Europe. It was a couple of years after he went back to Europe he started playing well enough to garner attention. He just had a breakout season this past season. By the way you do realize Bogut is an international player dont you?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Brad Miller was a hell of a player at Purdue, and Wallace had a succesful college career as well. Just because they were undrafted it doesn't mean that they didn't play NCAA. I think it's a big deal if your best players were just mediocre players in the NCAA. Isn't that what this argument is about, which leagues are better? Well, if the NCAA sends their best players to the NBA and their second-tier players over to Euroleague, wouldn't that make them better than Euroleague?</div>

If the NCAA sends their best players to the NBA and their second-tier players to the Euroleague that probably would make them better than the Euroleague providing a few things... The second tier players will have to stay mediocre players they cant improve(and they do improve) and the Euroleague would have to be composed mostly of the second tier players(and it isnt).

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Forgive Danny Granger for actually suceeding. I mean, couldn't I give you any random NCAA backup player's statistics and say "Well, he wasn't the main option on his team, so you can't look at his stats". Why wasn't he his team's main option? I'll tell you this much, if Granger was on Real Madrid, he sure as hell would be.</div>

Well you have a point there. Your first couple of sentences that is. Sometimes the player just isnt good enough to be a serious offensive reference. And other times the player just never gets the opportunity. With a good deal of European prospects its usually the latter. As for why wasnt he the main option? I dont know. It just seems that they dont put any faith in the younger players. Splitter is a good example. If you look at his stats they arent very impressive simply because he has great offensive players on his team. But there was a stretch when guys ahead of Splitter in the big men rotation were injured and he got serious minutes and a serious role on the team. He played great during that stretch. Put up points, pulled down rebounds, blocked shots, etc...But even though he played very well his role was once again limited once the guys ahead of him got healthy. Granger would not be the number one option on Real Madrid. It has nothing to do with his skills. He just wouldnt.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">So he's capable of doing everything he can do minus the stuff that counts? Believe me, if Granger's defense wasn't as great as it was, and he had no passing game, then he would not be getting consideration as a #8 pick. His scoring, ball handling, and rebounding are impressive, but he's set apart with his defense.</div>

I said Gelabale looks like he can do everything that Granger can do minus the exceptional passing with slightly worse defense but still a good defender. That's a pretty good trade off considering I'm using the 30th pick to get Gelabale, already have a developing Ariza and I would also have more pressing matters in my frontcourt so I'll need that 8th pick to grab myself a big man. I am not knocking Granger at all. I really would like him but Splitter will have more of an impact than Granger and Gelabale would be a nice cheap substitution.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">The best big man in the NCAA is Andrew Bogut, and there is no Euroleague player better than Bogut. Second of all, that comparison to NCAA big men is so foolish that words can not even describe. You are confusing talent with height. Splitter and Vazquez are hotter prospects than Diogu, May, and Simien because they are taller. Ask any scout, General Manager, or coach in America, and they will tell you that if Diogu, May, and Simien were all 6-11 then they would be favorites for the #1 pick in the draft. Read the scouting reports on the guys and you'll see that the weaknesses are far and few outside of height. It's just the height that kills these guys. And just incase you hadn't noticed, the best big men in the NBA (Shaq and Duncan) are NCAA graduates.</div>

We'll excuse Splitter and Vazquez for being actual big men. If Splitter and Vazquez had either Diogu's or Simien's skill set they would also be favorites for the number one pick. If Yao was as big as Shaq and as aggressive he could be the most dominant center ever. If wishes were fishes then there would be no water for us to drink. If doesnt matter. The only thing that matters is what is. And what is is(hope I didnt confuse you here)Splitter and Vazquez have more potential than the guys you just mentioned whether it's due to height or whatever(size does matter). And in case you havent noticed two out of three of the remaining true dominant centers in the league are international players.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">Marvin Williams is the sixth man on his NCAA team, and he is potentially the #1 pick overall. There are also currently players like Rudy Gay, Shannon Brown, and LaMarcus Aldridge who are fourth or fifth options on their NCAA clubs but would challenge the #1 pick this year. So don't give me the line, "and they're just role players on their respective teams", because you know just as well as I do that point is completely irrelevant.</div>

Okay. You caught me. I know it's irrelevant. I tried to sneak that one past you. I didnt think it was going to work but what can I say? I gave it a shot.
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<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">At this point, I am 110% positive that no team will give Tiago Splitter a top ten guarantee. You can take that to the bank. I think it's laughable that you only bring up international players for the Knicks. Why do you say he's not "Taft risky"? If anything, he's more risky. He doesn't get any considerable minutes for his team overseas, he's extremely raw and is not as skilled as Taft, his body is not as ready for the NBA as Taft's, and he has the same questions about his work ethic. How is he not more risky than Chris Taft? Why no mention about Channing Frye either? NCAA players aren't good enough?</div>

I have to disagree with you on that Tiago Splitter thing. He has way too much to offer a team to not go in the top ten. We both know this. If the Knicks dont pick him up(if he falls that far that is) the Warriors are almost certain to nab him. Can you imagine a future frontline of Biedrins and Splitter?? They'll be throwing a block party every night. Besides the Warriors need a player that can deal with all the great powerforwards out West especially since they plan on being a playoff team from now until whenever. And by the way just so you know...I'll remember you said that.

Taft is without a doubt the riskiest person in draft. There are conflicting reports on Petro's work ethic. Some say he's lazy others say he isnt getting enough credit. And his body is without a doubt ready for the NBA. Taft is just...a lazy bum who's a waste of potential. I thought about Fyre but I read a report on him that scared me away. There are questions regarding his mental and physical toughness and whether or not his game will translate well into the NBA. It seems he's caught between powerforward and center and not having a position is bad.

As far as me only bringing up international players is concerned I brought up Splitter, Petro and Vazquez because they will all help the Knicks situation up front(and that's what's most important to me right now although I wouldnt draft Vazquez). And I only mentioned Gelabale because he was the only player around the 30th pick that had a game similiar to Granger and I was looking for a substitute(Garcia and Gomes are nothing like Granger). Gelabale was similiar so I used him, he just happened to be an international player. And of course NCAA players are good enough. I'll take anybody who will help but there just really isnt any big NCAA players who can do the things that Splitter will do(if you do know any let me know). The players you mentioned earlier just arent the answer. I thought about Villanueva but from what I hear he's kind of lazy too so I might as well just go with Petro if not Splitter.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, there's a reason that the majority of the NBA players came from the NCAA, there's a reason why you always hear people say of NCAA players "He won't make the NBA, but he could have a nice Euroleague career", there's a reason why several Michigan State backups have made better careers for themselves overseas than they ever had in the NCAA, there's a reason why many Euroleague <u>stars</u> are extremely mediocre NCAA players.</div>

Come on man. Granted most of the players of the NBA came from college but that's changing. You are aware of the international invasion arent you?. The international players spreading through the NBA slow but sure(they've already replaced the college stiffs at the end of the bench). The Spurs are a good example. The starting guards, back up point guard and back up center are international players. Next year if Luis Scola does indeed come to the NBA he'll be backing up Tim Duncan. People say "He won't make the NBA, but he could have a nice Euroleague career" because of the complete difference in style between the NBA and Euroleague. In the Euroleague it's all about skill and fundamentals whereas in the NBA you cant make it if you're not athletic enough.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Voodoo Child:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know, my thoughts on the issue are so scattered it's not even funny. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone suggest that the Euroleague was on the same level as the NCAA, at least not anyone who wasn't from Europe, so I'm not to best one in the world to debate this issue.</div>

Well you did a pretty good job all things considered
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You're incorrect but you still did a good job. Maybe noone has suggested it because they dont want to believe it's true or noone else has realized how far the Euroleague has come. But it is definetely better than the NCAA. How much better is debatable. But it is better.


UKownstheSec, I'm sorry but since my post is already deliriously long I'll have to keep it short with you. The Knicks have Houston for another two years and Crawford for another five so we dont need Antoine Wright. And I already said my piece on Granger. If you bet Randolph Morris will dominate in the Euroleague right now you'd lose your money. He might learn some things like passing and footwork though so he probably should go. I want a real big man and the NCAA players besides Bogut just dont cut it. Just because a player dominated in college does not mean he will do the same in the NBA. The NBA is a completely different kind of animal. More athletic, bigger players(no more 6'8" powerforwards) What team hasnt made bad draft decisions? The Knicks arent even close to having one of the worst draft histories in the NBA. You brought up a bunch of second round picks that didnt amount to anything and then say the Knicks have a history of drafting busts?? And just for the record Splitter would kill Diogu! He'd kill him and a good deal of the other powerforwards in this draft. You're allowed to love college ball but dont let it cloud your judgement. If you want me to tell you why Splitter would kill Diogu and the other guys just let me know. I couldnt keep it as short as I wanted to...


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
 
First of all, well written post, and thanks for taking the time to type it, because it really made me want to reconsider certain issues.
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Second of all, I could really argue certain points such as Splitter's draft stock, but that is a distraction from the original topic and a waste of both our times. So I just want to narrow it to the heart of the issue here, NCAA vs. Euroleague. I understand where you are coming from. Euroleague basketball is full of less talented yet more experienced players, whereas NCAA basketball is full of more talented yet less experienced players. However, I do not believe that experience matters as much as you suggest. Every player gets better as they become more experienced, but there are certain teams in the NCAA (ie: UNC) whose players would be talented enough to put up great numbers in the NBA right away. When Marvin Williams and Raymond Felton play next year and they will have big roles on their NBA teams, will you still insist that Anthony Parker is better? Not all of those NCAA players' talent is raw you know. The NCAA is not simply a development league. Many of these players are NBA ready out of High School.

Lastly, I didn't expect to initiate a giagantic ATF-like debate with this one, so much so that it'd inspire posts as long as the one you just posted. I don't really have the time nor energy at this point in time to continue the debate so I'm going to withdraw. That doesn't mean I've changed my point of view, and that doesn't mean that I'm conceeding. I just feel like it's essentially a pointless debate. You're talking about two completely different styles of basketball with completely different rules and the whole situation is hypothetical. I'll let you reply to this post all you want, but odds are I won't reply unless it's just related to the topic. I also want to see this thread get back on topic (for those who don't remember, the topic of this thread is who the Knicks should draft, not whether or not the Knicks have drafted busts or whether the Euroleague is better than the NCAA).

:beerchug:
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post"> The Knicks have Houston for another two years and Crawford for another five so we dont need Antoine Wright. And I already said my piece on Granger. </div>


You're still counting on Allan Houston eh? might not be a great idea. I said it was a lost cause at the beginning of last season and its not looking any brighter. To say you dont need Wright, a potential future top 50 player in the league because you have a 35 year old very injured pure shooter with no defense is beyond me, but thats your opinion so i respect it. My question is, since i dont know THAT much about euro ball or its players, do you really think that drafting someone that obviously is not ready to play the C spot this year at all is a wise move for a team with a 10 day contract backup PG, a next to retired/nba crippled Allan Houston and 6 PF's on the roster? I think the Knicks are in the same position as the Raptors. They really need a center, could use a real pass first pg since the starting PG is a bit of a ball hog, and they could use depth everywhere else other than PF. I'd try not to narrow my options to far, becuase i quite frankly dont think Splitter is worth totally ignoring Wright, Felton, Granger(his defense and passing is what makes him leagues ahead of Gelabale. It's like saying Mo Peterson is Artest without the defense....that is Artest! Just my 2 cents.

peace mang


How about his for an idea. In my opinion NY trading the pick for say denvers 20 and 22 would be a great idea, it would allow you to grab depth at the positions you need now and later when you trade away expiring contracts. Might make that job easier since you can trade the contracts without having to get anything specific back in return. just a thought
 
Frye?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"Arizona 6-foot-11 center Channing Frye has become a serious candidate for the Knicks at No. 8. Knick president Isiah Thomas flew to Tucson for four days in April to do research on the senior Frye. Frye has worked out in Chicago the past few weeks with Michael Jordan's trainer." New York Post</div> source
 
I hope Isiah does the smart thing andd stays away from him. Comeone, let's get a swingman!
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JWohl:</div><div class="quote_post">source</div>

Whose payroll is Isiah Thomas on?? That's what I want to know. That is the only possible explanation for him considering to use the 8th pick on Fyre. He must be getting paid by some other team in the East to sabotage the Knicks because Fyre has no business being in the lottery.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Comeone, let's get a swingman!</div>

What the Hell??? Why would Isiah do something stupid like draft a swingman???Besides the fact he's Isiah Thomas I mean. Drafting a small forward doesnt make any sense! It's simply not logical! In fact I'd go as far as to say it's downright stupid! Most teams when their last in shot blcoking, have poor perimeter defense, have a 6'8" powerforward as their starting center and a history of playing poor basketball in the abscence of a good big man would do everything in their power to draft a quality big man.

But nope! Not the Knicks! We insist on playing small ball(which doesnt work in the East). We insist on drafting swingmen and wingmen(basically players we dont need) and then get mad when we cant block shots, pull down defensive rebounds and lose. Somebody-anybody-please explain to me why we should draft a small forward! Give me a list of reasons as to why we should draft a small forward over a big man. Use pictures, graphs and diagrams because quite frankly I simply dont get it!
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">What the Hell??? Why would Isiah do something stupid like draft a swingman???Besides the fact he's Isiah Thomas I mean. Drafting a small forward doesnt make any sense! It's simply not logical! In fact I'd go as far as to say it's downright stupid! Most teams when their last in shot blcoking, have poor perimeter defense, have a 6'8" powerforward as their starting center and a history of playing poor basketball in the abscence of a good big man would do everything in their power to draft a quality big man.

But nope! Not the Knicks! We insist on playing small ball(which doesnt work in the East). We insist on drafting swingmen and wingmen(basically players we dont need) and then get mad when we cant block shots, pull down defensive rebounds and lose. Somebody-anybody-please explain to me why we should draft a small forward! Give me a list of reasons as to why we should draft a small forward over a big man. Use pictures, graphs and diagrams because quite frankly I simply dont get it!</div>
A shooting guard/small forward would definitely be the best player available with our eighth pick. I?m not expecting Splitter to stay in the draft like many sources are suggesting which only leaves the best player available, right? Vazquez is a possibility, but it?s he might be gone by the time we pick. What other big man should we use it on, Frye or Taft? I would much rather much rather use my pick on a player who can potentially turn into a star instead of the best big man available ? where there are no risk-free ones not named Andrew Bogut who we probably have no chance in getting. Even if you want to say Splitter is risk-free, remember, he most likely isn?t staying in the lottery. With a player like Granger on the perimeter, the Knicks perimeter will only get better and the need for shot blocking would become less necessary. Not drafting a big man with our eighth does not mean we don?t have to draft one period. We can still get two of your favorites in Ronny Turiaf, or Lucas Tischer. Turiaf doesn?t have ceiling potential, but his downside isn?t on the floor either. He will be able to step in immediately and help us out in the shot blocking, and rebounding department. Also don?t forget about Jackie Butler; I heard he was developing nicely and could step in for about 15 minutes next season. Don?t forget about the off-season either. Although you might consider Isiah Thomas a clown, I seriously doubt he would allow Kurt Thomas or Sweetney to start at center for yet another season. I?m sure he was just as hurt as us watching that. If we could get someone like Kwame Brown, Dan Gadzuric, or even Jerome James, we could be pretty solid and they definitely aren?t ruled out in signing. Let?s not forget about a perimeter threat either which has been somewhat of a problem as well since Houston left. Granger, Wright or Webster could provide that now, and instantly. Their upside is also better than any big man in the draft. The Knicks also said that they are going with the best player available regardless of position and those players around our pick will be the best ones available.

I don?t know how to put up graphs and things on the computer, but I?ll do the best I can:
[IMGl]http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/headshots/danny-granger-hd.jpg[/IMGl] [IMGr]http://www.nbadraft.net/profiles/headshots/fran-vasquez-hd.jpg[/IMGr]
<div align="left"><--Gives us defense, brings good upside, brings a great all-around player, better equipped for the future.</div>

Might be gone when we pick, questionable upside, better for us now, but what about the future? Has Isiah ever drafted an international player? -->
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not liking this Frye stuff
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</div>

Me too
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80671.jpeg

A few hours ago I was watching some Channing Frye highlights and I must say, I was impressed by what he can do. Granted, I would have to be impressed with him because they are highlights where everyone looks impressive, but based on what I?ve seen, he seems like exactly what the Knicks need which is a center and even more importantly a shot-blocker too bail out Marbury and Crawford?s mishaps defensively.

Channing Frye also has great range especially for a big man. He can bring other shot-blockers on offense out the paint for Marbury to penetrate. I?m talking about Kurt Thomas range+. I believe he can hit NBA 3-pointers with relative consistency and I heard he?s getting faster and quicker plus has gained weight.

What do you guys think of him? Could he turn out well for us?
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">
80671.jpeg

A few hours ago I was watching some Channing Frye highlights and I must say, I was impressed by what he can do. Granted, I would have to be impressed with him because they are highlights where everyone looks impressive, but based on what I?ve seen, he seems like exactly what the Knicks need which is a center and even more importantly a shot-blocker too bail out Marbury and Crawford?s mishaps defensively.

Channing Frye also has great range especially for a big man. He can bring other shot-blockers on offense out the paint for Marbury to penetrate. I?m talking about Kurt Thomas range+. I believe he can hit NBA 3-pointers with relative consistency and I heard he?s getting faster and quicker plus has gained weight.

What do you guys think of him? Could he turn out well for us?</div>

What do I think of him?? I wouldnt touch that cat with a ten foot pole! That's what I think of him!(I'd take the big, sloppy, chump over him any day) And I laugh at the poor suckers who end up drafting him in the first round(yes I am aware that the Knicks look like their going to draft him, ironic isnt it?) From what I understand he's too slow to defend powerforwards that take him out to the perimeter and too weak to defend centers in the low post and doesnt have the body to add on alot more weight(I find any and all reports saying he's gained a significant amount of weight while not losing a significant amount of mobility fabricated until he comes to my house and weighs himself in front of me on my scale). He doesnt seem to have a clear cut position and that is bad. Not to mention he is WAY TOO SOFT. He doesnt like to bang and that is a must if you're a big man.

He does not belong in the lottery. To be honest I wouldnt use our 30th pick on him. You think he'll be a good shot blocker? I dont know... do you think Jason Collins is a good shot blocker? Fyre was almost always 2-3 inches taller than the next tallest person on the court. I am not impressed whatsoever by his shot blocking skills. There are pleny of jumpshooting big men in the NBA that we can get without using a draft pick. And MrJ I seem to remember arguing with you over Michael Doleac about the Van Horn deal. What was it you said? "Doleac is just a jumpshooting big man..." and you didnt say it in a good way either. So now you're suggesting we use our 8th pick to draft a jumpshooting big man?? I believe you are flip flopping. All in all I dont know how the Hell did Fyre end up getting consideration for the lottery. Noone was even thinking about him until someone said he got a top ten guarantee. And it seems that little trick worked on Isiah Thomas which isnt surprising since he's a jackass.

In my opinion-and anyone else's who knows a damn thing about the prospects in this draft-Splitter is clearly better in every single possible way except jumpshooting and the Knicks dont need a soft, jumpshooting big man right now(and even if we did want one we could always sign one with the MLE). Now I dont want anyone to believe that I think Fyre is all bad because being tall(even if it's tall for nothing) does count for something so I'd probably consider him with our second rounder. If Lucas Tischer, Marcelo Huertas, Daniel Ewing and Jared Homan arent gone by then.


Anyway I think Isiah Thomas should be fired.
 
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">What do I think of him?? I wouldnt touch that cat with a ten foot pole! That's what I think of him!(I'd take the big, sloppy, chump over him any day) And I laugh at the poor suckers who end up drafting him in the first round(yes I am aware that the Knicks look like their going to draft him, ironic isnt it?) From what I understand he's too slow to defend powerforwards that take him out to the perimeter and too weak to defend centers in the low post and doesnt have the body to add on alot more weight(I find any and all reports saying he's gained a significant amount of weight while not losing a significant amount of mobility fabricated until he comes to my house and weighs himself in front of me on my scale). He doesnt seem to have a clear cut position and that is bad. Not to mention he is WAY TOO SOFT. He doesnt like to bang and that is a must if you're a big man.</div>
Ha-ha, I guess you can look at it from that perspective, but I think you?re mistaken. I really thought you didn?t like Eddy Curry so I can imagine how much you don?t like Channing Frye. I doubt that the sources are fabricated, Tribute. I doubt they would make up such a thing. You have to wonder how someone who was considered so low could bounce up this high. I believe there is more to it than him simply being a big man because I?ve seen no other big man?s stock increase like his. Did you know that the Knicks also secretly worked him out and they came back impressed and confident that he was what we need? Let?s say he really does turn out to be 260 pounds with additional quickness laterally and with a more explosive jump. Would you reconsider?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He does not belong in the lottery. To be honest I wouldnt use our 30th pick on him. You think he'll be a good shot blocker? I dont know... do you think Jason Collins is a good shot blocker? Fyre was almost always 2-3 inches taller than the next tallest person on the court. I am not impressed whatsoever by his shot blocking skills. There are pleny of jumpshooting big men in the NBA that we can get without using a draft pick. And MrJ I seem to remember arguing with you over Michael Doleac about the Van Horn deal. What was it you said? "Doleac is just a jumpshooting big man..." and you didnt say it in a good way either. So now you're suggesting we use our 8th pick to draft a jumpshooting big man?? I believe you are flip flopping. All in all I dont know how the Hell did Fyre end up getting consideration for the lottery. Noone was even thinking about him until someone said he got a top ten guarantee. And it seems that little trick worked on Isiah Thomas which isnt surprising since he's a jackass.</div>
I?ve heard the same comparison on one of the Collins twins too and I believe that those comparisons are somewhat farfetched. Frye?s wingspan is better and now after working in the ATTACK program by Tim Grover, I think that just makes him even better. He was a better shot-blocker in college and he wasn?t as big physically then Collins. The fact that he has great range on his shot is not why I want him; that was just the icing on the cake. My intentions weren?t to degrade Doleac as a player. We were saying who was better, Nazr or Doleac. I chose Nazr because he could do more than Doleac ? who could only shoot jumpers. I?m not flip-flopping; consider me wanting Frye as a change of opinion. Also, weren?t you saying that the way you saying how great Doleac was and how stupid it was to move him over Nazr ? a player who could do more than Doleac? I remember you talking about his performance being essential to the Knicks success so if that is the case, wouldn?t someone like Frye ? a player who could do more both offensively and defensively be worth it? That top 10 thing was a rumor; and a laughable as well. Why would someone promise senior a guarantee? You asked me how ?Frye can get lottery consideration like this? but honestly, I?m still trying to figure out exactly how this can happen too. This shows he must have done something pretty significant to impress and it looks like he has. All we really need is a shot-blocker in the middle and with Frye?s wingspan and newly acquired ?hops? he will provide that. Let?s not forget his post moves are fairly good and can always be refined by Aguirre. He seems like what we need and Splitter is probably pulling out of the draft. Frye might not have the most upside, but he will be useful and will be the perfect compliment for Sweetney in the post that we talked about a couple of months ago. Also, how can you really question Isiah Thomas? He?s drafted some fine players in the league and knows talent when he sees it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In my opinion-and anyone else's who knows a damn thing about the prospects in this draft-Splitter is clearly better in every single possible way except jumpshooting and the Knicks dont need a soft, jumpshooting big man right now(and even if we did want one we could always sign one with the MLE). Now I dont want anyone to believe that I think Fyre is all bad because being tall(even if it's tall for nothing) does count for something so I'd probably consider him with our second rounder. If Lucas Tischer, Marcelo Huertas, Daniel Ewing and Jared Homan arent gone by then.</div>
Splitter as I said, is probably pulling his name out of the draft and really isn?t better than Frye although he probably has more upside. If Frye did in fact get to 260, than he would really be that much better than Splitter. Frye is in no way shape or form worth our 54th pick and at the very least our 30th although he probably will be gone by then. We want a big man, Splitter?s leaving Taft isn?t good, Vazquez is not as proven, Bogut won?t slip to us, but Frye is the only one left. We should take him and trust Isiah?s talent eye because he knows it when he sees it.
 
stopped in as this is a lively thread and I get a charge out of the notion some 6-10 part timer in the overseas minors is the great savior. The Warriors C situation is less dire. We had a lot of folks a few weeks ago dead certain Taft had great "upside". I never heard much about anyone EVER seeing him do a thing in a game that was semi-special. I saw him,barely first round,few real skills,looks strong but clueless or lazy...maybe some of each. Potential? To be what,a slower Kwame? Splitter,Vasquez,Petro....take their stats,add them togather and you'd about match Simien or Diogu. Some fool says Splitter could,what,crush Diogu or something....fat chance. Two or three years from now,maybe....but probably not. Now? no way. Vasquez? He is a 6-10 225 22yr old who is finally getting skilled enough to play some. He's your quick fix at C????? Petro? Martynas? The bleak seasons they had say MAYBE next year they will have a modest impact in Europe. Tshikavili is 7 ft,actually can shoot some,had 3yr NBA experiance...would you give a rd 1 for him now?
The logical pick for the Knicks is Frye. The Knicks need a guy who is tall and DOES NOT SUCK. NY fans,media are not ultra patient,and Thomas wants to get some sort of answer at C ASAP. As a Warrior fan,I'd hope NY takes Vasquez,so there would be no danger of us getting him.

There ARE some great players from various countries. The NBA skimmed off the real talents in recent years and ,most of the remainders are guys who are very raw,including some who didn't get picked a year ago. Some who were too young. The guys who are NBA stars now were stars on national teams in the Olympics,had established their abiliy to play.
I even saw a post saying the Knicks ought to take Martynas over Green....there's an obsolete concept. Green is more ready than Marvin Williams,has nice skills plus athletic tools. Martynas could not shine for a mid-major college team. It's hypothetical Green will go between 2 and 5. Martynas is a questionable gamble as a late first round....what happens when his 3 yr rookie conrtact is up and he is still not ready?
 
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