Official Giants and Jets suck ass again thread

[kreidertime]

At least I can see a light at the end for the Giants. Thomas looks like a stud at LT. What they really need is for Gettleman to actually sell off some guys at the deadline and acquire some extra picks. Engram, Williams, Zeitler, Tate, Ryan and Golden should all be shopped at the deadline and dealt for extra picks if the deal is right.

I would like the Giants to go into the draft next year with at least two 2's, three 3rds, two 4ths and two 5ths. They can do this if they sell at the deadline. They have players contenders will want especially with all the injuries. The roster is now more clear to what they need to add. 1st, a dominant pass rusher. Second, another young CB who can start, a dominant center, a TE that can block and catch. They need depth with those extra picks. They need to draft a power football RB as you can't count on Sequon coming off an ACL deal. They need to draft a couple of fast WR's who are burners to stretch the field. They need the extra picks to do this. This is where Gettleman hasn't been the strongest and he needs to fix that. Shepard is a guy you might be lucky to get a 4th or 5th pick for. I'd dump him as well. He's a good player but he just can't stay healthy. I team might take a chance on him.

 

[NYR Fan]

The Barkley situation shows why you do not take a RB at # 2. Hurt back to back years, and RB's really are a dime a dozen. RB's take a huge pounding, and that opens them up more to injuries, which happen all over the NFL to begin with. Add in the OL still sucking, the awful Williams trade, and the awful trade up for red flagged by many Baker, and Gettleman needs to go. Once again his team will win 3-5 games this season. He has done a terrible job here, and it is bordering on ridiculous now that this guy is still here. When they go 4-12 again this year, he needs to be gone.

I think Jones has the potential to be very good, but he has to stop the turnovers. In his defense though his OL is so bad he doesn't have any shot to be successful sometimes. And Thomas we'll see. It's 2 games. He looks okay so far, but there were many OT's to pick in that slot, and we'll see how that pans out over time.

 

[theProdigy223]

The Barkley situation shows why you do not take a RB at # 2. Hurt back to back years, and RB's really are a dime a dozen. RB's take a huge pounding, and that opens them up more to injuries, which happen all over the NFL to begin with. Add in the OL still sucking, the awful Williams trade, and the awful trade up for red flagged by many Baker, and Gettleman needs to go. Once again his team will win 3-5 games this season. He has done a terrible job here, and it is bordering on ridiculous now that this guy is still here. When they go 4-12 again this year, he needs to be gone.

I think Jones has the potential to be very good, but he has to stop the turnovers. In his defense though his OL is so bad he doesn't have any shot to be successful sometimes. And Thomas we'll see. It's 2 games. He looks okay so far, but there were many OT's to pick in that slot, and we'll see how that pans out over time.

Interesting points, a guy with the name RangersFan used to say almost the exact same things word for word. Wonder where hes been.

 

[kreidertime]

The OL has young guys that have barely played dumbass. That takes time. As far as Williams he's played very well and I actually think he will bring more than what he gave up for him. The league has many teams that think they have a shot at a title and this will be a year of injuries. Guys like Zeitler, Williams, Engram, Ryan and Golden will be in high demand. The one thing Gettleman hasn't done is acquired extra picks. That needs to change this year.

 

[theProdigy223]

- Really sucks about Barkley. Great kid and an incredibly hard worker. Hopefully that same work ethic will have him back better and more quickly than most would. If there's a silver lining to this, it's that it happened early in the season and will allow him max recovery time.

- Pointing to an ACL tear as the reason to not take an RB at 2 is a textbook example of confirmation bias. Solomon Thomas (3rd overall) and Joey Bosa (2nd overall) both had knee injuries yesterday too. I guess the 9ers made a mistake drafting DEs in the top 3 as well? It's the NFL, players at all positions blow out knees at any given time. O Lineman more so than anybody, as they get rolled on almost every play. The theory that running backs are "a dime a dozen" is simply incorrect. Sure running backs can be found all over the draft, again same with any position. You draft based on talent, and Saquon was the most talented running back to come out of college maybe since Barry Sanders. Still have no problem whatsoever with the pick, and the fact that he tore his ACL has no bearing on the analysis. The much bigger issue is how long it has taken to build the team around him. We're going into year 3 of Saquon, and we still have a starting TE who can't block, a stopgap at RT and a C who has never played the position before. THAT's what is inexcusable.

- Agree with Dump that Thomas looks incredible thus far, specifically in pass pro. 2 games in, but that pick appears to be a hit. Hernandez is playing decently well, but I like his aggressiveness and attitude more than anything. This team needs more of that. Gates is a train wreck but that is to be expected considering he has never played center before. Huge miss by Gettleman not getting another center in here. Lost count of the number of times I've said that. Zeitler, no idea what has happened with him. He was Mr. reliable last year. That right side right now is a disaster. We'll see Peart in for Fleming sooner rather than later.

- I'm encouraged with the front 7. Blake Martinez is playing really well. More range against the run than anybody we've had since Pierce. Carter also coming into his own, which was badly needed. I didnt like the Williams trade, but he's at least playing well along with Dexter.

- The secondary is brutal. Chuck referenced the Baker pick which as expected turned into a disaster. We're trotting out corners picked up off the scrap heap and it shows. Against Pitt it looked like they never saw a rub route before. Losing X has forced Logan Ryan into a hybrid safety role, and we really needed him do boost the C depth with no Beal or Baker. I love Corey Ballentine's fight, but he's a D2 corner. He needs more time and he's getting hung out to dry.

There's a lot of work to do with this team but there are some bright spots.

 

[kreidertime]

Gettleman didn't miss on the center position. The centers were abysmal in last years draft. The players they took they needed a ton more than some crappy center. They needed Peart in the 3rd round and Holmes in the 4th round a ton more than the crappy centers in last years draft. I looked at every center prospect and other than one which went in the first round, they sucked. Loved the Lemieux pick. I think Zeitler will be replaced by Lemieux and Fleming by Peart when the team is 0-4 or 0-5 which they should be. Holmes and Love were excellent picks. Both are athletic, tough and are high intelligent which means they can play in a good system with good coaches. Nobody could have predicted the Baker thing. Only negatives on him was lazy studying habits. So, they need to replace him. Hopefully, Gettleman will deal some guys at the deadline and make good trades.

 

[theProdigy223]

I never said it had to be through the draft. It could have been through FA. Ted Karras signed 1 yr 4 mil with MIA after starting for New England, and we never even had him in for a visit. Would have been the perfect deal for this team. Give Daniel Jones more protection up the middle so the pocket isnt collapsed, and give Saquon a better chance in the ground game and not burn another year of his development with limited holes up the middle. Then get our long term center next year.

Instead we threw a guy there with zero career starts at center and he is getting his doors blown off because he can't get his hands up quickly enough after he snaps. So yes, Gettleman did miss on the center position.

 

[NYR Fan]

This board lives in fantasy land on Gettleman. Look at his record since he has been GM, jesus.

And yes the young OL are still TBD, I don't disagree at all. But the OL still stinks now, and has stunk since he got here. That's despite his fix the OL and hog mollies comments. Maybe they get better, I am sure they will, but no one knows for sure how this will play out.

Taking a RB # 2 is ridiculous. That's it. It isn't even worth debating. You do not take a RB that high. That isn't my take, that is just about every single NFL analysts take, and I agree. The fact that they take a beating, and certainly can be extra vulnerable to injury, is yet another reason why. Maybe if you are a stud RB away from being there, and have very few holes you can take a RB top 5, but not # 2 and not when you are filled with holes as the Giants were/are.

And Baker had red flags all over the place. Many teams took him off their boards. Yet somehow Gettleman said hey why wouldn't I trade up for him. And then he does what he does, and we are surprised or act as if it wasn't a huge risk given the red flags. Come on now.

It is truly amazing that the Giants have been absolutely terrible under Gettleman, and are well on their way to another 4 win season this year, and yet some defend the guy. I don't get it.

 

[theProdigy223]

Taking a RB # 2 is ridiculous. That's it. It isn't even worth debating. You do not take a RB that high. That isn't my take, that is just about every single NFL analysts take, and I agree. The fact that they take a beating, and certainly can be extra vulnerable to injury, is yet another reason why. Maybe if you are a stud RB away from being there, and have very few holes you can take a RB top 5, but not # 2 and not when you are filled with holes as the Giants were/are.

Completely disagree, and just like with your take (or Rangerfan's take) on drafting Thomas at 4, you are making up a consensus in the scouting community that simply does not exist regarding taking Saquon at 2. Plenty of people thought it was the right pick at the time, while others like yourself disagreed. I'd be happy to show these to you, just like I showed you the support for taking Thomas at 4 (thought that doesnt seem to have mattered). Gettleman's failure regarding this pick has been about not properly complimenting Saquon and putting the right pieces around him to succeed - specifically strong run blockers and a run blocking TE.

It is truly amazing that the Giants have been absolutely terrible under Gettleman, and are well on their way to another 4 win season this year, and yet some defend the guy. I don't get it.

Not sure who this is directed at. To me it's not about defending the guy, it's about debating the merits of decisions he has made. In this very thread you'll see me rip him for leaving the C position unaddressed when you have a 3rd year gamebreaking RB, and missing on Baker while not having sufficient depth at CB. Those are huge problems that as expected have materialized over the first 2 games of the year. That doesnt mean other decisions he has made are negated, and certainly doesnt mean we are living in a fantasy land.

 

[Messiah717]

I belong to one of the major Giants boards and someone yesterday made a great point about Barkley. What we have seen is someone who is a great athlete but not necessarily a great NFL running back. Doesn't avoid contact and too much indecision. The injury sucks and the line isn't great by any stretch. That said this is turning into a disastrous pick and as was said why you don't take a back at #2.

 

[theProdigy223]

I belong to one of the major Giants boards and someone yesterday made a great point about Barkley. What we have seen is someone who is a great athlete but not necessarily a great NFL running back. Doesn't avoid contact and too much indecision. The injury sucks and the line isn't great by any stretch. That said this is turning into a disastrous pick and as was said why you don't take a back at #2.

And as for this argument, Id suggest that you could put any running back you want behind the offensive line he's had the past 2 years, and they would look absolutely terrible. The stats show he is hit in the backfield more than any other RB in the league, and has the lowest average yards before first contact. That's not on him at all. OJ Simpson (yes I know he is a murderer) had a great quote about that the other day, saying how frustrating it is to hear people criticize the guy for this when he has such little space to work with. This flows into the argument about how frustrating it is to see the blocking problems and OL personnel issues continue into Saquon's third year. You give him the smallest space and he is gone. We should be seeing that more often than we do.

Regarding the indecision and avoiding contact (which is what I think you meant to say), I just dont see that. I do see a guy who tries to do too much sometimes, looking for the 20 yards intead of taking the 4. He's acknowledged that several times and it was something I was watching closely for this year.

If we didnt take Saquon, we would have taken Darnold. Is that where we wanted to be?

 

[Messiah717]

And as for this argument, Id suggest that you could put any running back you want behind the offensive line he's had the past 2 years, and they would look absolutely terrible. The stats show he is hit in the backfield more than any other RB in the league, and has the lowest average yards before first contact. That's not on him at all. OJ Simpson (yes I know he is a murderer) had a great quote about that the other day, saying how frustrating it is to hear people criticize the guy for this when he has such little space to work with.

Regarding the indecision and avoiding contact (which is what I think you meant to say), I just dont see that. I do see a guy who tries to do too much sometimes, looking for the 20 yards intead of taking the 4. He's acknowledged that several times and it was something I was watching closely for this year.

If we didnt take Saquon, we would have taken Darnold. Is that where we wanted to be?

Does it matter? Barkley has now had three seasons wasted at a position where the shelf life is short to begin with. Now he has to come back from a major knee injury. This isn't good anyway you slice it.

 

[NYR Fan]

Your Thomas and Barkley comparison is simply another misrepresentation Prod. Taking an OT was the right move. The question was do you need to stay at # 4 to take one when there are 4 rated in the same range? And if so which one do you take. Yes Thomas was not the consensus best one of the 4, but that is a side convo and shows why a trading down a bit was the better move. But now that you have Thomas, you hope he turns out to be great, and hopefully the best or 2nd best of the 4 OT.

The RB discussion is WAY different. Taking a RB at # 2, especially on a team with a ton of holes, is simply asinine, that's all there is to it. The positional value is not there to take a RB # 2. Terrible pick. And seriously if you don't think the BY FAR overwhelming majority of NFL analysts think taking a RB # 2 is crazy, then respectfully you are full of it. It gets said all the time that the RB position is not valued that highly, and you can find good RB's all over the place.

 

[theProdigy223]

Your Thomas and Barkley comparison is simply another misrepresentation Prod.

On Thomas, RangersFan said that nobody had him at the top of their list. I linked to several scouts who did including PFF, and then the argument shifted to him not being the consensus. That's fine, but I dont believe I misrepresented anything. And since you said it's "another" misrepresentation, I would like to hear the others.

Regarding, Barkley you are now saying that just about every single NFL analyst says the same thing that it was the wrong pick. Again, that's not true. You are hearing those guys being louder right now because the guy just tore his ACL. You can agree with them, but when we made that pick it was far from a consensus that it was a disaster. And I still dont think it's a disaster.

 

[theProdigy223]

Does it matter? Barkley has now had three seasons wasted at a position where the shelf life is short to begin with. Now he has to come back from a major knee injury. This isn't good anyway you slice it.

I think it does matter, because it's two different things. No decisions are made in a vacuum, so if the argument is that it was a bad pick because we picked an RB with nothing around him and left it like that, then yeah I'd agree with that. As I said, it's year 3 and we have a stopgap RT, a center who has never snapped a ball before this year and a TE who cant block. That's just terrible all around.

I think Barkley at time was a great pick and I still think that, with the failure being that we never prioritized building around him. If you want to link that all into one decision I would largely agree.

 

[NYR Fan]

The bottom line to me is you do not take a RB at # 2. The positional value is not there that high. Many/most NFL analysts agree on that. It is not smart to take a RB that high. On top of that, this is compounded by now two straight seasons Barkley has been hurt or under performed, thus proving the theory I believe. And for the record, I think Barkley is great, and with this OL he has had very little chance. But that still doesn't mean taking a RB at # 2 is smart. It was always very dumb. And who is the GM who years after saying fix the OL and get hog mollies, still has a crappy OL?

As for Gettleman, I don't understand how his teams can lose 11 + games every season for 3 years running, and yes they will lose at least 11 this year, and it's oh work in progress, or he has done a good job. The guy has to go and he clearly has been a disaster here. You yourself listed clear misses by him. As far as I can see, the only potential good thing he has done is draft Jones, but that is not a given yet, and even then taking him at # 6 was too high (but if he turns out to be a franchise guy I'm okay with that given the importance of the QB position).

 

[NYR Fan]

I think it does matter, because it's two different things. No decisions are made in a vacuum, so if the argument is that it was a bad pick because we picked an RB with nothing around him and left it like that, then yeah I'd agree with that. As I said, it's year 3 and we have a stopgap RT, a center who has never snapped a ball before this year and a TE who cant block. That's just terrible all around.

I think Barkley at time was a great pick and I still think that, with the failure being that we never prioritized building around him. If you want to link that all into one decision I would largely agree.

I repspect your opinion that you think Barkley was a great pick at the time, I disagree, but respect your opinion on the subject.

With that said, your next line "the failure being that we never prioritized building around him".

How do you feel that way and yet think Gettleman has done a good job OR deserves to still be here. I don't get your Gettleman take way more than I differ on your Barkley take.

 

[theProdigy223]

I repspect your opinion that you think Barkley was a great pick at the time, I disagree, but respect your opinion on the subject.

With that said, your next line is "the failure being that we never prioritized building around him".

How do you feel that way and yet think Gettleman has done a good job OR deserves to still be here. I don't get your Gettleman take way more than I differ on your Barkley take.

Im not necessarily a huge Gettlman supporter. With any GM I try to give them some time to develop their vision and not come to quicker judgments the way I think you can with coaches. Right now hes a very mixed bag and the way the rest of this season shakes out will be very telling.

 

[Messiah717]

The bottom line is putting together a team that has a chance to win. Not a team that has a shinny toy in Barkley but loses. Sort of like are the Panthers winning anything with CMC? They have been a losing team going on three years with him. Now he's out 4-6 weeks with an injury. How crappy did Bell look on the Jets and what did he ever win in Pittsburgh along with Brown?

 

[theProdigy223]

The bottom line is putting together a team that has a chance to win. Not a team that has a shinny toy in Barkley but loses.

Agree fully. But it doesnt have to be an either/or.

How crappy did Bell look on the Jets and what did he ever win in Pittsburgh along with Brown?

Per a quick peek at Wikipedia, those Steeler teams played on divisional weekend 4 years in a row and had double digit wins each year. No they didn't win the whole thing (wasn't easy to come out of the AFC those years), but they were far from pushovers. Le'veon...we'll he sat out an entire year, and clearly came back lazy and disengaged once he got his money. Not sure his play on the Jets is the right comparison to a guy like Saquon.

We're all extremely frustrated because it seems like this franchise is yet again spinning its wheels and we have another lost season ahead of us. But let's see how this all shakes out and what Saquon's recovery looks like. The press release only mentioned ACL, which is another positive sign.

Hopefully we can all agree that even having this kind of football banter is a great thing. Over the summer I wasnt sure we'd even have a season to fight about!

 

[NYR Fan]

I think the Bell in Pitt discussion again kind of proves the Barkley point. First they drafted Bell in the 2nd round, not # 2 overall. And second, once he was due a big deal what did Pitt do - they let him walk. Again not worth picking a RB that high, or paying him that much.

And agreed, good to be having great football banter.

 

[kreidertime]

Sadly Chuck looks at asshole draft boards who know nothing about scouting. PFF which is the first one you look at had Thomas first. Ourlads had him second. Every other board is done by losers who know jack shit about scouting players. Thomas a stud and looks it. Agree with Prod that no RB in the game would do crap with Sequon's lines. Other than Sanders, Barkley is the only RB I've seen in my life that could have had over 2,000 total yards with that shit line. That being said DE Chubb who people wanted missed almost all of last year. He got hurt. Nelson is an all pro guard but he's a guard which I'm not taking that high. Gettleman has had some bad luck. If Engram or Shepard had been healthy, I think Gettleman would have dealt them already for picks. He nailed FA this year. Martinez looks great as does Bradberry. Bringing in Fackrell and getting Golden were smart moves. If dipshit Engram can stay healthy and do something there are pieces to be moved for picks.

They are going in the right direction. I would like them to get some extra picks and build a more power footbal, ball control team. While you can still use Barkley as a major weapon they need to add a Bavaro type TE, a couple of speed WR's to stretch the field and have a huge, strong, RB that can back up Sequon and thatq they can use if the other team is selling out to stop the run to move the chains. Chuck's opinion on Gettleman is worth shit. Every single part of this team sucked dick when Gettleman took it over thanks to clueless Reese who had no ability to draft.

 

[NYR Fan]

You can knock me all you want, I know that's your thing, but the results speak for themselves:

His record as Giants GM is horrendous - 5-11, 4-12, and heading for another 3-5 win season this year.
Awful trade for Williams - why give up a 3rd for a guy who was free at the end of the season. Williams is now the highest paid player on the team.
Taking a RB at # 2 was the wrong move (Barkley has had whatever seasons in 2 of his 3 NFL seasons).
Hiring Shurmur was a terrible move.
Fixing the OL and adding hog mollies was the most important thing to him - 3 years later the OL is still awful.
Trades up to draft red flagged Baker - real smart.
Drafts an OT in the first round last year, smart, but why not trade down a bit when all 4 of the top OT were rated in the same range.
Drafts Jones at # 6, over-valued. Again why not trade down a bit and take him. As mentioned I will give him a pass on this one if Jones becomes a franchise QB.

So you can spin your BS all you want, but that's the cold hard reality of the situation. They are going in the right direction based on what - your dreams. Give me a break on that. Maybe they will be good eventually, but right now there is nothing showing you/us they are going in the right direction, outside of your dreams.

He has been a disaster as the Giants GM. That's all there is to it.

 

[kreidertime]

Chuck just hates Gettleman. He doesn't want to accept the fact that this team sucked in every area when he took over. Only two things would like Gettleman to do better is one, acquire extra picks, two, be more aggressive getting rid of players like Engram who don't fit this QB. He holds onto guys too long.

 

[stampedehero]

The Barkley situation shows why you do not take a RB at # 2. Hurt back to back years, and RB's really are a dime a dozen. RB's take a huge pounding, and that opens them up more to injuries, which happen all over the NFL to begin with. Add in the OL still sucking, the awful Williams trade, and the awful trade up for red flagged by many Baker, and Gettleman needs to go. Once again his team will win 3-5 games this season. He has done a terrible job here, and it is bordering on ridiculous now that this guy is still here. When they go 4-12 again this year, he needs to be gone.

I think Jones has the potential to be very good, but he has to stop the turnovers. In his defense though his OL is so bad he doesn't have any shot to be successful sometimes. And Thomas we'll see. It's 2 games. He looks okay so far, but there were many OT's to pick in that slot, and we'll see how that pans out over time.

I think, Mark Ingram who is a ten year veteran, and his protégé JK Dobbins are worth your interest this season. Edwards is also another good running back. Baltimore has the right personnel and plan. Last year's demolition of the Jets at M&T stadium was a sight to behold.

 

[kreidertime]

Please. You can find running backs all over the draft. They don't have the talent of Sequon but running backs for the most part all look great with a good OL. That's what made Sequon special. He put up 2,000 yards when he was healthy with one of the worst offensive lines in Giants history. With this Sequon deal they need to pick up a couple extra 3rd and 4th rounders and take a RB or two. Build up better depth at that position.

 

[kreidertime]

If I have to hear one more dumb media fuck talk about Jones turnovers. Please. He's played 14 NFL games. For about 12 of them he's had no running game. 14 games an OL that hasn't matured yet. A defense for 14 games that he thinks will make him have to score 30 plus points. His TE for almost no games. His most reliable receiver for probably about 8 healthy games. A bad coaching staff for 12 games. You think that this guy is going to go out there where he has to try and win every game throwing the football with a below average OL, a few offensive weapons with a defense he can't trust and not turn it over? So I guess he's suppose to dink and dunk like D'Arnold, not turn it over, put up shit numbers and go 3 and out all the time. I swear, I don't know how these retards are allowed to cover sports all the time.

 

[Greyvtrayn]

It's someone else's fault!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[kreidertime]

Stop being a condescending bitch which is what you always are. Simply stating that when you have no running game, a below average offensive line, very few weapons and you have to score 30 points pretty much all by your arm because your defense sucks, you have to be aggressive and constantly try to make plays. Of course, you probably never played any sport on a high level in your life. More likely you sat on the couch eating nachos.

 

[NYR Fan]

If the GM is doing such a good job, how the heck does Jones have such a disaster around him? I mean pretty much all the things you are stating, which for the record I agree with, are a huge indictment on a GM who has been on the job for 3 years now.

I'm sure you'll come back with your usual name calling, so nothing new there, but in this case I am actually agreeing with you. And in agreeing with you it clearly calls out how terrible the 3 year GM has been here. Let me guess, he inherited a disaster. In 3 years his teams have been TERRIBLE, and are still a disaster in many places, as you yourself called out, but yeah Gettleman is doing a good job. You really can't have it both ways on this one.

Jones - going to be very good IMO. GM - has been awful.