Omar Mateen, mass shooter.

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I really have nothing to add to what Mediocre Man said. It is such a great example of how some people hate "others" (undocumented, Muslim) so much that they can have no compassion for their being shot by an insane homophobic terrorist. It's a short jump from not caring about someone's pain to inflicting it.

@e_blazer (tried to tag you but don't know the trick) there are now 7 Christian ministers who have spoken out in favor of these murders. You would say that's a tiny percentage of Christian ministers and you'd be correct. But three presidential candidates, not of some wacky fringe party but of the Republican Party, stood on a platform with ministers who call for the death penalty for homosexuality, although they have not specifically endorsed these murders. Neither the candidates nor the party nor any elected official of the party so far as I know asked them to repudiate these statements, although Muslims are asked repeatedly to repudiate inflammatory remarks. You said that millions of Muslims support the radical element - I don't know exact numbers; I'd bet in a lot of countries most Muslims are just trying to survive. And that the parallel Christian view is just a tiny number. In the West, yes. But not in Asia and Africa. Uganda narrowly missed passing a death penalty for homosexuality after world protests. The bill is not revoked, just tabled. Homosexuality still carries long prison terms. It is also a crime to know someone is gay and not report him/her. In parts of Africa, "corrective rapes" of lesbians are organized by their own mothers and openly supported by church authorities. Nigeria is also debating a kill the gays bill. There are increases in antigay bills and in extralegal violence in large parts of Asia. These are not just local churches; they are organized and often funded by US evangelicals. The US evangelicals have written off the West as a lost cause. Sure, they can pass bills allowing people to refuse service to gays, but know that won't stand up in court. They are reduced to keeping transpeople from using public restrooms. Pretty small potatoes. But in Africa and some areas of Asia are "real" Christians (their words). I have seen rallies in Uganda of thousands of people holding Christian bibles, raising their arms in Christian salute, listening to ministers and cheering and praying for the death penalty for gays. In Russia under the tsars, homosexuality was a crime. The 1917 revolution abolished those laws, not due to any gay movement but because the Bolsheviks opposed laws that imposed state morality. Under Stalin, as part of the counterrevolution, the laws were reinstated. During glasnost they were loosened. When Putin came to power, he reinstated antigay laws and strengthened them; it is a crime in Russia to simply support gay rights. He did this to ally himself with the Russian Orthodox church. Never much of a Christian, he became what I call a "Christian by convenience" (like his admirer Trump). So you just can't let Christain churches off the hook. I know many Christians feel otherwise, but in public life "Christian principles" means antigay. Sorry, but it does, according to them.

Meanwhile...

Donald Trump boasted that "the gays" love him (is there anyone he thinks does not love him?) and said "ask the gays". The hashtag #askthegays has gone viral with "the gays" telling Trump exactly what they think of him. He, last week, had spoken at Faith and Freedom rally where he promised to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn marriage equality, allow people to refuse service to gays if Jesus says so, opposes transgender access to public facilities. Not to mention deporting gays and lesbians to countries where they face extreme persecution.

As to the killers' wife, it's wrong to say she's "as guilty". The most guilty person is the one who pulled the trigger, the only exception being if someone else ordered or hired the hit (think Manson, who never physically killed anyone). She is being investigated and while feelings are running high it's best IMO to withhold judgement until we get all the facts. His first wife said he was an abuser, wife 2 may have been terrified of him. But I don't know, frankly none of us do at this point.

Crandc, I can't justify or explain away all of the hate in this crazy world except to say that it reflects the fact that people make up every "anity" and "ism" there is, and people of all stripes are pretty much messed up.

According to an ABC News poll, 83 percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians. http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=90356 That amounts to about 265 million people. The religious lives of those people range from devout to never attending church. The denominations that they are affiliated with range from Catholic, to fundamentalist evangelical protestants. The doctrines espoused by those churches on homosexuality range from unmitigated sin to total openness (including gay clergy). The mental state of those millions of Americans range from sane to out-of-their minds bonkers. Their education level and understanding of the Bible is all over the map. All of this is not to excuse, but to explain that there isn't any one individual or viewpoint that can be said to be representative of Christianity when it comes to how the church (in the broadest sense) relates to the LGBTQ community. My own viewpoint, is expressed pretty well by this article: http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/...ity-many-christians-get-the-bible-wrong/15775
 
Thanks for the read, e_blazer.
It's just that, after every act like this Muslims do come forward to repudiate and still are blamed en masse, but it's far more rare for Christians to repudiate crap done in their name. We're just supposed to accept that "not all Christians", so why not "not all Muslims"?

Interesting point, 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christian but every year we hear about how Christians are being persecuted by a "war on Christmas" that probably people not in the 83% celebrate!

Meanwhile, an Orthodox congregation decided to go to a gay bar in solidarity. Turned out to be an African-American gay bar. They relate their experience here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gregation-went-to-a-gay-bar-to-mourn-orlando/
 
Hey Crand, I saw this on Reddit yesterday and I thought it was interesting because I know you have brought this up several times.

 
Obama struggling to use the term "radical islam" is a clear indication he is clueless who the enemy is. I don't see an issue with being specific about a tiny minority of Muslims who are radicalized and commit horrendous crimes.

It's kind of obvious that if you're at war, you identify the enemy and bring the battle to them.

These kinds of attacks on soft targets aren't workplace violence or your typical day to day crimes.
 
I really have nothing to add to what Mediocre Man said. It is such a great example of how some people hate "others" (undocumented, Muslim) so much that they can have no compassion for their being shot by an insane homophobic terrorist. It's a short jump from not caring about someone's pain to inflicting it.

@e_blazer (tried to tag you but don't know the trick) there are now 7 Christian ministers who have spoken out in favor of these murders. You would say that's a tiny percentage of Christian ministers and you'd be correct. But three presidential candidates, not of some wacky fringe party but of the Republican Party, stood on a platform with ministers who call for the death penalty for homosexuality, although they have not specifically endorsed these murders. Neither the candidates nor the party nor any elected official of the party so far as I know asked them to repudiate these statements, although Muslims are asked repeatedly to repudiate inflammatory remarks. You said that millions of Muslims support the radical element - I don't know exact numbers; I'd bet in a lot of countries most Muslims are just trying to survive. And that the parallel Christian view is just a tiny number. In the West, yes. But not in Asia and Africa. Uganda narrowly missed passing a death penalty for homosexuality after world protests. The bill is not revoked, just tabled. Homosexuality still carries long prison terms. It is also a crime to know someone is gay and not report him/her. In parts of Africa, "corrective rapes" of lesbians are organized by their own mothers and openly supported by church authorities. Nigeria is also debating a kill the gays bill. There are increases in antigay bills and in extralegal violence in large parts of Asia. These are not just local churches; they are organized and often funded by US evangelicals. The US evangelicals have written off the West as a lost cause. Sure, they can pass bills allowing people to refuse service to gays, but know that won't stand up in court. They are reduced to keeping transpeople from using public restrooms. Pretty small potatoes. But in Africa and some areas of Asia are "real" Christians (their words). I have seen rallies in Uganda of thousands of people holding Christian bibles, raising their arms in Christian salute, listening to ministers and cheering and praying for the death penalty for gays. In Russia under the tsars, homosexuality was a crime. The 1917 revolution abolished those laws, not due to any gay movement but because the Bolsheviks opposed laws that imposed state morality. Under Stalin, as part of the counterrevolution, the laws were reinstated. During glasnost they were loosened. When Putin came to power, he reinstated antigay laws and strengthened them; it is a crime in Russia to simply support gay rights. He did this to ally himself with the Russian Orthodox church. Never much of a Christian, he became what I call a "Christian by convenience" (like his admirer Trump). So you just can't let Christain churches off the hook. I know many Christians feel otherwise, but in public life "Christian principles" means antigay. Sorry, but it does, according to them.

Meanwhile...

Donald Trump boasted that "the gays" love him (is there anyone he thinks does not love him?) and said "ask the gays". The hashtag #askthegays has gone viral with "the gays" telling Trump exactly what they think of him. He, last week, had spoken at Faith and Freedom rally where he promised to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn marriage equality, allow people to refuse service to gays if Jesus says so, opposes transgender access to public facilities. Not to mention deporting gays and lesbians to countries where they face extreme persecution.

As to the killers' wife, it's wrong to say she's "as guilty". The most guilty person is the one who pulled the trigger, the only exception being if someone else ordered or hired the hit (think Manson, who never physically killed anyone). She is being investigated and while feelings are running high it's best IMO to withhold judgement until we get all the facts. His first wife said he was an abuser, wife 2 may have been terrified of him. But I don't know, frankly none of us do at this point.

I don't hate Muslims. I also have a lot of compassion for the people who were shot....all of them. What I don't have compassion for is those people here illegally that don't know how they will afford medical expenses. They are literally committing a crime.
 
Thanks for the read, e_blazer.
It's just that, after every act like this Muslims do come forward to repudiate and still are blamed en masse, but it's far more rare for Christians to repudiate crap done in their name. We're just supposed to accept that "not all Christians", so why not "not all Muslims"?

Interesting point, 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christian but every year we hear about how Christians are being persecuted by a "war on Christmas" that probably people not in the 83% celebrate!

Meanwhile, an Orthodox congregation decided to go to a gay bar in solidarity. Turned out to be an African-American gay bar. They relate their experience here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gregation-went-to-a-gay-bar-to-mourn-orlando/

The war on Christmas is a big one. An entire community can celebrate it, and all it takes is one person to say they don't and Christmas programs become holiday programs.
 
Obama struggling to use the term "radical islam" is a clear indication he is clueless who the enemy is. I don't see an issue with being specific about a tiny minority of Muslims who are radicalized and commit horrendous crimes.

It's kind of obvious that if you're at war, you identify the enemy and bring the battle to them.

These kinds of attacks on soft targets aren't workplace violence or your typical day to day crimes.

People are so worried about hurting other people's feelings.
 
Thanks for the read, e_blazer.
It's just that, after every act like this Muslims do come forward to repudiate and still are blamed en masse, but it's far more rare for Christians to repudiate crap done in their name. We're just supposed to accept that "not all Christians", so why not "not all Muslims"?

Interesting point, 83% of Americans identify themselves as Christian but every year we hear about how Christians are being persecuted by a "war on Christmas" that probably people not in the 83% celebrate!

Meanwhile, an Orthodox congregation decided to go to a gay bar in solidarity. Turned out to be an African-American gay bar. They relate their experience here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...gregation-went-to-a-gay-bar-to-mourn-orlando/

That's a great way to show support for the gay community. I think the more communication, the better. This is an old story, but it shows what I know to be true; a lot of Christians are working to open things up in the belief that the more people actually interact with each other, the better things get: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15034651

Jesus' teachings can be distilled to two major points: love God; love your neighbors. Unfortunately, way too many people are eager to try to correct somebody else's behavior instead of taking care of those two main commandments.
 
Obama struggling to use the term "radical islam" is a clear indication he is clueless who the enemy is.

Do you actually think that, Denny, or are you just spouting the right-wing talking points here? That statement is as silly and blindly partisan as any of Trump's statements.

I'm pretty sure Obama is better informed than all of us about exactly who the enemy is.

barfo
 
The war on Christmas is a big one. An entire community can celebrate it, and all it takes is one person to say they don't and Christmas programs become holiday programs.

The "war" on Christmas is silly. As if having some clerk wish me a happy holiday instead of a merry Christmas is going to somehow spoil my enjoyment of the season? As far as Christmas programs vs. holiday programs goes, I'd love it if our communities could get to the point where we can enjoy the many cultural and religious traditions of our various communities without feeling threatened by them. If that's too much to expect, I can enjoy a nice Christmas program at my church.
 
Do you actually think that, Denny, or are you just spouting the right-wing talking points here? That statement is as silly and blindly partisan as any of Trump's statements.

I'm pretty sure Obama is better informed than all of us about exactly who the enemy is.

barfo

It's not a matter of "thinking that." It's as obvious as the point at the top of your head.
 
This Content Cannot be Displayed.

I don't want to go way off topic but it was so fucking miserable when I was a young girl in school being forced to sing about the birth of my non-savior. Or not singing and being asked why. And getting shit beat out of me because I killed Christ. I am so happy that young people now have option to celebrate Christian holidays in homes and churches but non-Christians aren't forced to in school. I still get crazy with all the damn ads all over TV.

It's gotten to the point that when someone says "Merry Christmas" to me I don't know if they are well meaning but ill informed, or deliberately using a Christian reference to make a political point. My stock reply is "wishing you a very happy HOLIDAY season" which covers both.
 
Isn't it a bit hypocritical to support a candidate that takes tens of $millions in donations from people who stone women for having sex outside of marriage, deny them education, and make them wear burkas?

:crazy:
 
Isn't it a bit hypocritical to support a candidate that takes tens of $millions in donations from people who stone women for having sex outside of marriage, deny them education, and make them wear burkas?

:crazy:

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to conflate a charity with a candidate?

barfo
 
That's a great way to show support for the gay community. I think the more communication, the better. This is an old story, but it shows what I know to be true; a lot of Christians are working to open things up in the belief that the more people actually interact with each other, the better things get: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-15034651

Jesus' teachings can be distilled to two major points: love God; love your neighbors. Unfortunately, way too many people are eager to try to correct somebody else's behavior instead of taking care of those two main commandments.

I would like this twice but there is only one button.
 
LOL! I never use this term, but it seem appropriate here.

Only if you are pretty blindly partisan. The president gets daily security briefings. Do you?

barfo
 
"legally"

In reality, it's something of a slush fund.

Proof?

Oh, you don't have any? Well, people say you have sex with dead fish.

barfo
 
Proof?

Oh, you don't have any? Well, people say you have sex with dead fish.

barfo

That's a horrible thing to say. Just horrible. It's not her fault that it smells like dead fish.... well..... maybe it is, but it's still horrible to say anything about it.
 
Proof?

Oh, you don't have any? Well, people say you have sex with dead fish.

barfo
Silly barfo.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...atchdog-Calls-Clinton-Foundation-A-Slush-Fund

Government Watchdog Calls Clinton Foundation A "Slush Fund"

“It seems like the Clinton Foundation operates as a slush fund for the Clintons,” said Bill Allison, a senior fellow at the Sunlight Foundation, a government watchdog group once run by leading progressive Democrat and Fordham Law professor Zephyr Teachout. …

The Clinton family’s mega-charity took in more than $140 million in grants and pledges in 2013 but spent just $9 million on direct aid.

On its 2013 tax forms, the most recent available, the foundation claimed it spent $30 million on payroll and employee benefits; $8.7 million in rent and office expenses; $9.2 million on “conferences, conventions and meetings”; $8 million on fundraising; and nearly $8.5 million on travel. None of the Clintons is on the payroll, but they do enjoy first-class flights paid for by the foundation.

In all, the group reported $84.6 million in “functional expenses” on its 2013 tax return and had more than $64 million left over — money the organization has said represents pledges rather than actual cash on hand.

DailyKos left wing enough for you?
 
Another slush fund.

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/san...ering-donations-through-hillary-victory-fund/

In a statement released on Monday, the Sanders’ campaign accused the Clinton campaign of “laundering” campaign donations.

The explosive allegation was made in response to a report on Monday about a fundraising venture called the Hillary Victory Fund. Politico reports:

[T]he Hillary Victory Fund, is a so-called joint fundraising committee is [made up of] Clinton’s presidential campaign, the Democratic National Committee and 32 state party committees. The setup allows Clinton to solicit checks of $350,000 or more from her super-rich supporters….

According to CNN, the Sanders campaign also signed a joint fundraising agreement with the DNC. However, Clinton has been the only candidate to actually use it, raising upwards of $61 million through events like the well publicized $353,400 per plate dinner at actor George Clooney’s L.A. mansion.

Although the Hillary Victory Fund has raised a considerable amount of money, Politico reports their analysis shows the fund transferred $3.8 million to the state parties, but $3.3 million of those funds were almost immediately transferred to the DNC. That leaves the state parties with less than 1% of all the money raised by this joint fund. Further analysis by Politico shows that approximately $23.3 million “spent directly by the victory fund has gone toward expenses that appear to have directly benefited Clinton’s campaign, including $2.8 million for ’salary and overhead’ and $8.6 million” for web advertising that is essentially identical to official Clinton campaign ads.
 
Do we have to turn every thread into a Hillary fucking Clinton bitch fest?
 

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