Omar Mateen, mass shooter.

[MarAzul]

What I'm just trying to impress upon you here is that you can't use "But the religion is just not being followed properly

>>>Why not? I just did. I am not a Christian and I sure am not the expert to defend it. However, as a student of religion, I think the teaching of Jesus are very good for people to live by. As are the teaching of Buddha and Krishna.
By the way, the passages of the Torah (Old Testament) you referred to are not the teachings of Jesus.

Sounds really similar to what muslims say about their religion. "It's not the Quran that says these things that ISIS espouse.

>>>Better read the Koran again, it is very exclusionary. The teaching on how to treat the infidel are extreme without any extremist bending it at all. Then you have to check out the Hadiths, the saying of Muhammad,
some really harsh shit there.

Example;
http://www.radianceweekly.com/171/4...-ii/story-detail/hadith-on-homosexuality.html

 

[MarAzul]

The bigger picture here in my humble opinion is this; Both Jesus and Muhammad created a reformation of the old Jewish religion, using it as the starting point. Jesus took the harshness out of the religion and taught people to be less judging, to love one another and to leave punishment and vengeance to God. The world would be a much better place if men followed the teachings of Jesus.

Muhammad seems to be teaching his followers to exclude all other, to treat them as a lower class of beings. Instead of teach men not to judge one another and to leave punishment to God, he calls upon his followers to enforce the will of God
as Muhammad sees it. I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that we see these harsh extreme atrocities are committed by the followers of Islam.

It seems people have difficulty seeing a difference between the two religion when viewing the actions of the followers. But I don't see it that way, I see some "Christians" not following the teaching of Jesus, but most do. Then on the other hand
I see many Muslims following the teachings of Muhammad and harsh it is. Then we see some that apparently don't follow the Koran or the Hadiths and they even speak of Islam needing a reformation.

I look at the teaching not the action of the followers as the guide to the worthiness of the religion while not a devotee of any.

And I will admit that my view of Islam was set in the negative years ago in my mind, when I was part of a couple hostage rescue missions, to extract captives for Muslim pirates. Kaffers they called them,
It seem they feel it is moral to capture and ransom infidels (Kaffers). Nasty bastards!

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

>>>Why not? I just did. I am not a Christian and I sure am not the expert to defend it. However, as a student of religion, I think the teaching of Jesus are very good for people to live by. As are the teaching of Buddha and Krishna.
By the way, the passages of the Torah (Old Testament) you referred to are not the teachings of Jesus.



>>>Better read the Koran again, it is very exclusionary. The teaching on how to treat the infidel are extreme without any extremist bending it at all. Then you have to check out the Hadiths, the saying of Muhammad,
some really harsh shit there.

Example;
http://www.radianceweekly.com/171/4...-ii/story-detail/hadith-on-homosexuality.html

You misunderstood what I was saying there about Islam. I was pointing out what muslim apologists all say about islam. That is why I had it in quotes as an example of what THEY will say. I certainly don't agree with what they are saying about the so-called religion of peace. And that is part of what makes my point. Christians, and followers of Jesus as you seem to be at least in part, will pick and choose what they like and say that those that follow the parts that YOU don't like are the ones that aren't getting it right. They very well can say the same thing about anyone else that doesn't agree with their doctrine. It is illogical to say that your variation of a religious system is better than another variation, that is just immutable fact since we ultimately can never know what the original thoughts and motivations of a god are. No single book could ever do justice to the inner workings of god. If any human suggests such an absurd notion that one could possibly understand the god of the old testament from the bible, may they be struck down by lightning!

After all, who the fuck can even begin to understand a woman let alone the motivations and goals of a god from reading an ancient book of translations and mis-translations with omissions and additions?!

I predicted, to myself, that you would say that about those passages not being his teachings. They are actually from the New Testament though, all from Matthew and are about him at the very least whether you want to consider them worthy of his majesty is once again your call and not what most other believers of the bible would omit. However, my point wasn't about them being his teachings. It was pointing out the absurdity of passages in general in the bible and they certainly come across as circumspect to any thinking person. Jonah and the whale? Who can begin to believe such nonsense? Denying the existence of the holy ghost gets you a direct passage to hell no matter your good deeds, but you can deny the existence of Jesus and still get in to heaven? Then the last where it's blaming the Jews... The bible is tiresome hateful drivel. If it were not for the new word the whole of the bible would be so utterly disgusting as to be unfit for a child with the worst culprit being the god itself. Jesus is the only redeeming part of it.

I do agree that Jesus does have some generally good ideas about caring for others, but it's nothing we as modern man don't already know from simply existing day by day.

Observe the golden rule and pretty much everything else falls in to place. What else do we need to know about ancient belief systems at this point? The bible, if you feel it did anything to get society where it is today, has nothing new to add. We in society have written down and pass along the ideas in culture that matter, so let's continue to cherry pick the religions bones of whatever remains that is good and just place the holy texts in the libraries to be perused by old codgers that get off on that sort of thing. We got better things to do.

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

The bigger picture here in my humble opinion is this; Both Jesus and Muhammad created a reformation of the old Jewish religion, using it as the starting point. Jesus took the harshness out of the religion and taught people to be less judging, to love one another and to leave punishment and vengeance to God. The world would be a much better place if men followed the teachings of Jesus.

Muhammad seems to be teaching his followers to exclude all other, to treat them as a lower class of beings. Instead of teach men not to judge one another and to leave punishment to God, he calls upon his followers to enforce the will of God
as Muhammad sees it. I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that we see these harsh extreme atrocities are committed by the followers of Islam.

It seems people have difficulty seeing a difference between the two religion when viewing the actions of the followers. But I don't see it that way, I see some "Christians" not following the teaching of Jesus, but most do. Then on the other hand
I see many Muslims following the teachings of Muhammad and harsh it is. Then we see some that apparently don't follow the Koran or the Hadiths and they even speak of Islam needing a reformation.

I look at the teaching not the action of the followers as the guide to the worthiness of the religion while not a devotee of any.

And I will admit that my view of Islam was set in the negative years ago in my mind, when I was part of a couple hostage rescue missions, to extract captives for Muslim pirates. Kaffers they called them,
It seem they feel it is moral to capture and ransom infidels (Kaffers). Nasty bastards!

It's obvious to the impartial that Mohammad is the more violent of the two and IMO is more like a Joseph Smith of the Mormons than anything. But, because the followers of Islam take the teachings so seriously it makes for some really serious problems. The quran and the hadiths are full of passages that, if taken to heart, give followers clear instructions on how to make a mess of things for those that don't follow. It's like it was a religion designed to be spread by any means necessary in a time in history where brutality was the status quo.

Once again, I just want us all to not be hypocritical about our own ideologies. If you are anyone is using the same fallacious arguments to say "my way is right, and your way is wrong", then they should be called out on it. Because, in my view, if we set a stage for the most intolerant religion to spread because we are too concerned with protecting our own ideology that is full of holes, we are dooming everyone ultimately. Open up and let your ideology be criticized without getting all bent out of shape and stand up against all other religions that are infringing on the ideologies that are the core of a strong resilient society.

Freedom of speech > freedom of religion. Just have a religion and you can get away with absurdities. "My religion says we can't support birth control, so my business will not support an insurance policy that gives out birth control" and such. What is the limit to the nonsense? What if a religion said "My religion says that Canadians are the offspring of the devil and so I will not hire any Canadians"...

Anyway, I get where you are coming from, I'm just venting. Correct me if I am wrong. You really like the good parts of what Jesus has to say, you don't really want to bother reading the book in its entirety to see any of the dirty underbelly of whatever Jesus was up to. You have had bad experience with muslim people in the past and have a negative image of some of them and from what you have read of the quran and Jesus, Jesus comes out on top.

That's fine. Jesus was better than most, overall, so I'm not going to be a hater.

 

[MarAzul]

I do agree that Jesus does have some generally good ideas about caring for others

Observe the golden rule and pretty much everything else falls in to place

The quran and the hadiths are full of passages that, if taken to heart, give followers clear instructions on how to make a mess of things

>>>I see we have much in agreement, that is good. You can help get the word around.

You really like the good parts of what Jesus has to say, you don't really want to bother reading the book in its entirety

>>> Oh but I have! Rather hard to understand why the first Ecumenical Council included some of the drivel in the Cannon except people need to know where Jesus was coming from and what needed to be reformed.
As you say, to see the dirty underbelly of whatever Jesus was up to.

Another good read is the book "Who Wrote the Bible". It helps understand some of the construction.

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[rasheedfan2005]

"Any of various automatic or semi automatic rifles designed for military use with large capacity magazines. Miriam Webster Dictionary 1993 edition

So you are ok with semi automatic pistols with high capacity magazines as long as they dont look scary like an evil ar-15?

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Oh I know the fools and dumb asses exist, I won't even try to explain why. But I can't finds any where that Jesus teaches anything untoward about homosexuals. I am sure crandc find the idea that marriage is the joining of a man and woman
(Matthew) unfair. But I think that is just defining the union.

Mohammad on the other hand, doubled down on Leviticus and the story Lot(Lut in Arabic), and specified harsh treatment in his Hadith. Where as, Jesus teaches not to judge and to absolutely leave vengeance to God.

Youll notice to discredit a christian the athiest will quote from leviticus primarily, however the mere fact that they identify as a christ follower or christian means they take the new testament as the current rule, while they recognize the old teastament as inspired scripture, it is "old" for a reason.

If they want to get mad at leviticus they should probably pick a fight with a muslim or practicing jew who rejects the new testament and still believes they are under levitical law (even though contextually the book was only rules for priests of levi) if you want to talk about the law for everyone, i.e. the 10 commandments, please, explain to me how dont lie and kill people is a mean God.

 

[MarAzul]

please, explain to me how dont lie and kill people is a mean God.

No arguments here.

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

Youll notice to discredit a christian the athiest will quote from leviticus primarily, however the mere fact that they identify as a christ follower or christian means they take the new testament as the current rule, while they recognize the old teastament as inspired scripture, it is "old" for a reason.

If they want to get mad at leviticus they should probably pick a fight with a muslim or practicing jew who rejects the new testament and still believes they are under levitical law (even though contextually the book was only rules for priests of levi) if you want to talk about the law for everyone, i.e. the 10 commandments, please, explain to me how dont lie and kill people is a mean God.

How convenient.

”You can't disrespect the caterpillar by only raving about the butterfly"

As much as I can't stand Mark Jackson, it seemed appropriate to invoke his quote.

Please answer my questions.

We all can read the book and have the scholars break down every passage until the meanings are clear as possible.
Why is it appropriate to ignore the old testament when it says something inconvenient for your updated Jesus is the best narrative?

If I can find similarly dastardly passages in the new testament are you going to disavow the NT as well?

Why do you think your interpretation of christianity is the right one?

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

Youll notice to discredit a christian the athiest will quote from leviticus primarily, however the mere fact that they identify as a christ follower or christian means they take the new testament as the current rule, while they recognize the old teastament as inspired scripture, it is "old" for a reason.

If they want to get mad at leviticus they should probably pick a fight with a muslim or practicing jew who rejects the new testament and still believes they are under levitical law (even though contextually the book was only rules for priests of levi) if you want to talk about the law for everyone, i.e. the 10 commandments, please, explain to me how dont lie and kill people is a mean God.

So the OT is old rules and don't apply any more at all or do they apply if a pastor deems them worthy of using in a sermon? The ten commandments are OT originally, are they to be followed or not?

I am just trying to figure out what the justification for being able to have your cake and eat it too comes from. That is to mean, how you can say the OT is not good enough to be the law any more now that we have a newer set of guides even though the first was the inspired word of god?

Once again, I guess my comments sound confrontational and mean-spirited and apologize for that. I am just trying to learn what the rationale is for what appears to be unfair. You can't have it both ways, right?

 

[Denny Crane]

"This is a Judeo-Christian nation." But scratch the "Judeo" part when it's inconvenient.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

the 10 commandments, please, explain to me how dont lie and kill people is a mean God.

You would think God would have cared more about not molesting children than banging your neighbor's wife.

 

[PDXFonz]

Just out of curiosity, why use the shooters name as the thread title? They deserves no more acknowledgement than dog shit on the sole of a shoe.

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

"... if you want to talk about the law for everyone, i.e. the 10 commandments, please, explain to me how dont lie and kill people is a mean God.”

Cherry picking and a false premise.

Tell me how a guy that treated his pets, friends and family so wonderfully is such a mean serial killer.

Take the two commandments that are not related to proving the gods meanness and then force someone to prove therefore he is mean. That rhetoric isn't convincing to someone who doesn't already believe all that it takes to have faith.

Old testament and new testament have so many stories and passages showing the meanness of Yahweh, it will take you 30 seconds to enter those words in to google so no need for me to paste them here.

However, I guess you guys will just say that you mean Jesus and his nice words and skip all the fire and brimstone stuff.

"This is a Judeo-Christian nation." But scratch the "Judeo" part when it's inconvenient.

How come I lack your brevity? My hero.

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

Just out of curiosity, why use the shooters name as the thread title? They deserves no more acknowledgement than dog shit on the sole of a shoe.

Know thy enemy.

It doesn't truly hurt anyone to know the facts. I feel your pain and I understand that notion. But ultimately it does little to improve the situation by trying to reduce his cultural foot print. He is forever in the internet just like every other "important" killer in our countries history.

 

[Further]

Matthew 5:17

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm

You can't just toss out the old T and still follow Jesus.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

Just out of curiosity, why use the shooters name as the thread title? They deserves no more acknowledgement than dog shit on the sole of a shoe.

Because I'm not a Christian but thank Six Pound Eight Ounce little baby Jesus he wasn't a white whack job.

 

[MarAzul]

You can't just toss out the old T and still follow Jesus.

Nice to see you reading and checking it out. Yep, Jesus is supporting the 10 commandments. Imagine that! Heck no, we can't ignore the 10 commandments!
Although, I hear they are trying in Washington. What sort of rubbish is this?

http://www.wnd.com/2006/11/38823/

 

[MarAzul]

"This is a Judeo-Christian nation." But scratch the "Judeo" part when it's inconvenient.

Probably a good idea when it comes to Stoning people for their sins, hey! Well I do anyway.

 

[Denny Crane]

Probably a good idea when it comes to Stoning people for their sins, hey! Well I do anyway.

So the bible says to stone people for their sins.

And worse.

 

[MarAzul]

So the bible says to stone people for their sins.

And worse.

Not sure what you thinks is worse than being stoned to death, but what ever. I am sure you understand that Jesus went about teaching not to do this shit.

errr, did you know this?

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

Because I'm not a Christian but thank Six Pound Eight Ounce little baby Jesus he wasn't a white whack job.

We may or may not have similar reasons for being thankful he wasn't one of the "good guys”, but I would like to throw this out there.

What would it have to take for people that keep saying Islam is a religion of peace to see that it MIGHT not be as peaceful as it claims. After all it is what the faithful actually do rather than what the texts suggest that they do that ultimately determines how peaceful or horrible the faith is.

Why the fuck is this so hard to understand?

So, yeah, I want the shit to hit the fan to the point that the ostriches with their heads in the sand get a tap on their feathery butts letting them know something above ground needs addressing.

Unless I am misunderstood as being a bigot, I am not suggesting deportation, camps, registry, etc. Just initially an open dialogue that there is a problem that needs to be discussed about reformation so that Islam can get on board with modernity. Free speech to criticize the religion, not funding terrorism, Jews are people too, and perhaps some leniency on homosexuality, adultery, women's rights, are areas that need addressing.

That is the one silver lining to this tragedy, but probably not.

 

[Further]

I'm pretty fucking annoyed with the state of bickering and teams in America right now. After this awful mess, why does everyone still have to run to their corners? The liberals are putting it all on guns, and the conservatives are yelling about how it all comes down to using words like Islamic radicals. Both sides have some points, but both sides are also jacked up on their own traditional lines of thinking. Yes, we need some gun reform, especially with regards to keeping people who we believe are likely to commit a violent act from getting firearms (no-fly), however there is no legitimate way of restricting guns enough in our society to make a real dent in violence, just in law-abiding peoples freedoms to make their own choices. However, acting as if banning Muslims is the answer, disparaging giant numbers of peaceful American muslims and lumping them in with these terrorist freaks. Acting as if calling people names is the answer, that does nothing except drive more wedges between US and THEM. In France, and over much of Europe, Muslims have been treated like shit for such a long time, and now they have a much greater percent of radicalized Muslims than here in America because we haven't subscribed to that degrading philosophy. Last thing we need is to start turning America into a Muslim-radicalizing society.

We just need to nut-up, accept that both sides have points that make sense, and points of stupidity, and start weeding through those wit a clearer mind. Fuck R vs D, Lib vs Con, it's the team shit that's fucking us in every way.

 

[Denny Crane]

Not sure what you thinks is worse than being stoned to death, but what ever. I am sure you understand that Jesus went about teaching not to do this shit.

errr, did you know this?

Massacring every last man, woman, and child of the losers of military battles.

Jesus taught the Old Testament, too. See further's citations above.

 

[Denny Crane]

We may or may not have similar reasons for being thankful he wasn't one of the "good guys”, but I would like to throw this out there.

What would it have to take for people that keep saying Islam is a religion of peace to see that it MIGHT not be as peaceful as it claims. After all it is what the faithful actually do rather than what the texts suggest that they do that ultimately determines how peaceful or horrible the faith is.

Why the fuck is this so hard to understand?

So, yeah, I want the shit to hit the fan to the point that the ostriches with their heads in the sand get a tap on their feathery butts letting them know something above ground needs addressing.

Unless I am misunderstood as being a bigot, I am not suggesting deportation, camps, registry, etc. Just initially an open dialogue that there is a problem that needs to be discussed about reformation so that Islam can get on board with modernity. Free speech to criticize the religion, not funding terrorism, Jews are people too, and perhaps some leniency on homosexuality, adultery, women's rights, are areas that need addressing.

That is the one silver lining to this tragedy, but probably not.

1.2B Muslims. All but an insignificant minority do exactly what?

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

You would think God would have cared more about not molesting children than banging your neighbor's wife.

So either it wasn't a big deal to molest in the eyes of god or those that made up the bible, or perhaps the god simply does not exist. For we decent modern humans know for a fucking fact that molesting children is waaaay worse than banging someone else's wife in a consensual affair.

How some people can even WISH that the god of Abraham exists is hard for me to stomach let alone that such an entity does exist. His creation, the universe, is impossibly large and yet he is concerned with the mere thoughts in our heads about what it might be like to lie in bed with another man's wife?? He is concerned with thoughts about sex on earth rather than trying to make a new species in his image that might do a better job of earning the right to live for eternity praising him.

I give. You guys win. See you at the Apocalypse...

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

1.2B Muslims. All but an insignificant minority do exactly what?

I think it should be clear from the words I've used over the short time I've been on this forum that I am smart enough and conscientious enough to assume that I don't think all Muslims are bad people and would commit atrocities or condone them.
That is the standard I give to every person I would bother to argue with. I appreciate the same consideration, tyvm.


The fact remains that those within the religion feel that a reformation is necessary in order to bring the religion in line with modernity and even the discussion of such a thing can get you killed in some countries. I have friends that were born in to Muslim families and they joke about being able to go back to their home countries. They joke about letting anyone in their family know they don't believe. Ostracized by their family and possibly jailed, punished or killed if they go back. This is barbarism. If this kind of barbarism was happening on the moon, maybe we could ignore it, but it affects people the world over.

If you have not seen polls about what Muslims in various countries believe, such as the percentage that think those that leave the religion should be killed among other barbaric laws, I can google it for you. I assume since you have a conservative bent you might have already seen similar pols before. If you haven't, the numbers are disturbing to say the least.

So to answer your question. What the majority do, is not enough to push the religion out of its brutal past. And even if a very very small percentage of them take the teachings to their logical violent conclusions, with a backdrop of support of the faiths infallibility of a billion people it becomes a catalyst for the jihadi mentality. Thus, at the very least, it is an indirect support by agreeing to be a part of it without trying hard to fix it. Of course considering you can't safely criticize the religion it is understandable that even well meaning Muslims don't try to fix things. And there we have the rub. Until some reform can even be discussed we will continue down this road to the apocalypse. And sadly the religious think it ultimately doesn't matter because that is gods will that there will be a reckoning.

FML

 

[rasheedfan2005]

So the OT is old rules and don't apply any more at all or do they apply if a pastor deems them worthy of using in a sermon? The ten commandments are OT originally, are they to be followed or not?

I am just trying to figure out what the justification for being able to have your cake and eat it too comes from. That is to mean, how you can say the OT is not good enough to be the law any more now that we have a newer set of guides even though the first was the inspired word of god?

Once again, I guess my comments sound confrontational and mean-spirited and apologize for that. I am just trying to learn what the rationale is for what appears to be unfair. You can't have it both ways, right?

Law for the proud, grace to the humble. If you read the new testament youll see jesus rebuke pharasies quite a few times. They were the religious leaders of the time but allowed their position to feed their ego, thats why they had him crucified. Mean while when a gentile or someone they deemed unworthy would approach him in humility he always took care of them. There's not much point in debating with you, you clearly hate the bible so much so that you wont even attempt to study it's historical accuracy, let alone the theology inside.

I really enjoy how mad people get about the bible, the spout such hate because they think christians hate them. The irony is almost too much for me to lulz at anymore.

Ill give someone like marzazul credit. While i havent seen him profess to be a believer he at least has researched the subject extensively and isnt a jackass about it.

"Quit judging me!" The athiest exclaims ironically , as he casts judgement of the christian before even knowing their name.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

You would think God would have cared more about not molesting children than banging your neighbor's wife.

He took pitty on the HCP