OT - Kleiza to Europe. Nuggets weaker?

[Tyler_Hansbrough]

Does this move weaken then Nuggets at all? Does this make us better than them now?

 

[Mediocre Man]

A little. Kleiza is a chucker, who probably hurt their offense more than helped it. When he was on, he could hurt you though

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

http://www.sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145161

 

[illmatic99]

Sweet. This undoubtedly makes Denver weaker in my mind.

This is what Yahoo shows as their depth chart:

 Complete Depth Chart
PG	Chauncey Billups	Ty Lawson			
SG	J.R. Smith	Arron Afflalo			
SF	Carmelo Anthony	Renaldo Balkman			
PF	Kenyon Martin	Renaldo Balkman			
C	Nene Hilario	Steven Hunter

JR starting with Melo on the wings? There's only one ball. Balkman as both backup SF and PF? Steven Hunter was traded for a second round pick, btw, so they have pretty much zero front court depth.

Edit: hm... guess they have Chris Anderson and Malik Allen as well. But still, that's not very deep.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Sweet. This undoubtedly makes Denver weaker in my mind.

This is what Yahoo shows as their depth chart:

 Complete Depth Chart
PG	Chauncey Billups	Ty Lawson			
SG	J.R. Smith	Arron Afflalo			
SF	Carmelo Anthony	Renaldo Balkman			
PF	Kenyon Martin	Renaldo Balkman			
C	Nene Hilario	Steven Hunter

JR starting with Melo on the wings? There's only one ball. Balkman as both backup SF and PF? Steven Hunter was traded for a second round pick, btw, so they have pretty much zero front court depth.

Edit: hm... guess they have Chris Anderson and Malik Allen as well. But still, that's not very deep.

How is that not deep?

Billips, Anthony, Martin, Smith, Nene, Balkman, Anderson, Afflalo, Allen, Lawson........That's a solid 8, with 2 more decent players.

 

[THE HCP]

I think it's a big hit to their squad.

 

[illmatic99]

How is that not deep?

Billips, Anthony, Martin, Smith, Nene, Balkman, Anderson, Afflalo, Allen, Lawson........That's a solid 8, with 2 more decent players.

Allen and Balkman are hardly decent. And Afflalo is a downgrade from Dahntay Jones. Lawson is a question mark.

Comparing them to the Blazers, I'd say they're not nearly as deep. We have Blake (better than Lawson at this moment), Rudy (better than Afflalo), Webster (better than Balkman), Outlaw (better than Allen), and Joel (better than Anderson) coming off the bench, with Bayless, and our two rookie PFs riding the pine as our 11-13 men.

 

[Tyler_Hansbrough]

http://www.sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145161

I swear I looked, didn't see it. Sorry!

But in my defense, your thread was before it was official! It is official now.

 

[Foulzilla]

I think it does hurt them, but not significantly so. I think the addition of Lawson and Afflalo could make up the difference fairly well. Remains to be seen though.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Allen and Balkman are hardly decent. And Afflalo is a downgrade from Dahntay Jones. Lawson is a question mark.

Comparing them to the Blazers, I'd say they're not nearly as deep. We have Blake (better than Lawson at this moment), Rudy (better than Afflalo), Webster (better than Balkman), Outlaw (better than Allen), and Joel (better than Anderson) coming off the bench, with Bayless, and our two rookie PFs riding the pine as our 11-13 men.

Webster is NOT better than Balkman. Balkman is a very good defensive player who only averaged 1 point less than Webster in 2 less shots per game, PER 36 minutes.

Again, PER 36 minutes, the only thing Joel does better than Andersen is defensive rebound. Andersen scores more, blocks a ton more, steals more, assists more.

Our 2 PF riding the pine because they should.

Blake MIGHT be better than Lawson, but we don't know.

PER 36 minutes Afflalo has a better FG% and 3pt% than Rudy does as well. He averages slightly more rebounds, blocks and less TO's than Rudy, while Rudy averages slightly more assists and steals. To me, they seem pretty even.

Outlaw is better than Malik Allen

 

[alex42083]

Nuggets definitely got worse this offseason. Kleiza was their Travis so to speak, who could get 20-25 pts or just give you nothing, but he was an offensive threat. Afflalo is not good on O, and Malik Allen is garbage. And Balkman? yuck, just the same type of player as Andersen but not as good. Denver's top five is as good as anybody's in the league, but after that, it's not good.

 

[BalancedMan]

It does hurt them. Kleiza could really light it up, good for playing the 3 and even 4 in a small ball lineup. That's one less weapon they have off the bench. Balkman won't be scoring any 40 pt. games.

 

[MAS RipCity]

not worried about denver anymore..the division is ours to lose

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

I swear I looked, didn't see it. Sorry!

But in my defense, your thread was before it was official! It is official now.

yeah dont worry about it

 

[Boob-No-More]

Losing Kleiza and Dahntay Jones definitely hurts the Nuggets. Last year, the Nuggets had a high scoring bench with J.R. Smith and Kleiza leading the way. With the loss of Jones, Smith moves into the starting role. So, now with no Smith and no Kleiza coming off the bench, where is their bench scoring going to come from? Jones wasn't a great player, but he played solid defense and was consistent (consistently below average, but consistent). J.R. Smith is one of the most wildly inconsistent players I have ever seen. He's exactly the type of player who can score 32 points one game and then 0 the next, or 45 points one game and 5 the next. When his shot is falling, he's almost impossible to stop, but when it's not he will shoot his team right out of the game. It is this inconsistency that has kept him from being a starter, because the talent is definitely there. Inconsistency in a bench player is tolerable. If his shot isn't falling, you just park him on the bench and hope for better the next game. Inconsistency in a starter is more of a problem as the coach and his teammates never know what to expect from one game to the next. Thus, the inconsistency can be contageous.

Also, I don't think their starting 5 is all that great. K-Mart isn't nearly the player he once was. His production has been in steady decline for years. He only averaged 11.7 PPG and 6.0 RPG with a PER of 13.6 last season. Not counting the 2006-07 season where he only played in 2 games due to injury, his PER has decreased 5 seasons a row: 18.7 - 17.5 - 16.7 - 14.7 - 13.6. His PER is dropping by about a point per season and I don't see that trend reversing any time soon. He also hasn't had a post season PER above 12.1 since 2004. He's no longer a quality starting PF. At this point, Chris Andersen and Renaldo Balkman are both probably better players than K-Mart, but those are their two energy guys off the bench. So, it's doesn't make a lot of sense to start one of them over Martin. I also don't think Martin would take the demotion well. He has openly fueded with George Karl in the past, and could become a distraction if he's moved to the bench.

BNM

 

[Tyler_Hansbrough]

not worried about denver anymore..the division is ours to lose

This.

 

[Wheels]

Again, PER 36 minutes, the only thing Joel does better than Andersen is defensive rebound. Andersen scores more, blocks a ton more, steals more, assists more.

PER 36 minutes Afflalo has a better FG% and 3pt% than Rudy does as well. He averages slightly more rebounds, blocks and less TO's than Rudy, while Rudy averages slightly more assists and steals. To me, they seem pretty even.

Would you trade Rudy for Afflalo? How bout Joel for Bird man?

 

[hasoos]

You know initially I thought this wouldnt' hurt them much because he plays the same position as Carmello. But then I thought about how last year when New Orleans let Pargo go, and how much that hurt them, and they thought it wouldn't matter much. This may end up the same.

Dahntay Jones was one of the only guys on that team that would defend, plus he had a nasty/cheap side much like Bowen. When he is on your team you love him. When he isn't you hate his fucking guts.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Lot of pressure on the starting five to get it done day in and day out, because they shouldn't expect their bench to bail them out very often (unlike last year)

The starting five don't come across to me as the most consistent bunch, so I see Denver going through some rough spots on their schedule . . . I don't see them matching last year's win total.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Q about the Hunter trade . . . Denver traded Hunter and a 1st round pick for a second round pick. Was that the deal? Was the salary dump of Hunter so importatnt as to give up a first round pick to a team that has some aging players?

What was behind this trade?

 

[Minstrel]

I think Denver will be at least a bit worse, from the losses of Jones and Kleiza. Neither was an impact player, but they added some needed depth. Losing them and not adding anyone of note downgrades them a little. One of their best players, Billups, has a relatively high chance of declining a bit. Kenyon Martin has been declining slowly but steadily since his peak in 2003. And Nene is always a major injury risk.

Overall, I think things went very right for Denver last season. Losing a couple of useful players, factoring in reasonably expected decline from key players and the possible risk of losing their third-best player for an extended period (Nene), I would peg Denver at somewhere around 48-50 wins. Not a huge step back, but a significant one, still.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Would you trade Rudy for Afflalo? How bout Joel for Bird man?

It's not about who I would trade or not, it's about someone saying Denver had no bench compared to ours. Their bench isn't that much different from ours.


Basketball only, I would trade Birdman for Joel. I would not trade Rudy for Afflalo

 

[Wheels]

It's not about who I would trade or not, it's about someone saying Denver had no bench compared to ours. Their bench isn't that much different from ours.


Basketball only, I would trade Birdman for Joel. I would not trade Rudy for Afflalo

While I dont share the poster's sentiments who say they have no bench. I dont get how whether or not someone is better or not doesnt have to do with "would you trade for them" if someone is better I'm sure you would trade for them.

I guess I just happen to agree with Charley Rose about being one of the most overrated players in the nba.

"Yes, he can run, jump and dash to the ball from the weak side to dramatically block shots. And his masquerading as a tall, tattooed fowl is amusing if juvenile. But he can't shoot a lick and, most importantly, is incapable of adequately defending virtually any opponent on a man-to-man basis. What Andersen does is surely crowd-pleasing and can occasionally impact the outcome of a game, but it's mostly phony defense"

 

[andalusian]

Basketball only, I would trade Birdman for Joel. I would not trade Rudy for Afflalo

Really? They seem to be about as productive as each other. The birdman is a better offensive player and shot blocker, Joel is a better defensive player (other than blocks) and rebounder. Add the fact that Joel is actually younger and bigger and was just as efficient when his usage% was much lower than the birdman - and even if we ignore the birdman's volatility - Joel seems like a better guy to have...

Don't get me wrong - the birdman is fun to watch and it is an interesting human story - but as a basketball player? I just do not see him as a better player than Joel.

Gut feeling - Joel will see his offensive output go up just as Oden will with a PG that actually looks to pass the ball into the paint...

 

[illmatic99]

It's not about who I would trade or not, it's about someone saying Denver had no bench compared to ours. Their bench isn't that much different from ours.

To be honest, I think you're reaching on a bunch of those comparisons above. I don't think of Balkman as a legit NBA contributor, like I do Webster. I always feel there is an underlying fallacy in comparing PER 36 stats. And the idea that you consider Rudy and Afflalo as equals is baffling to me.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Q about the Hunter trade . . . Denver traded Hunter and a 1st round pick for a second round pick. Was that the deal? Was the salary dump of Hunter so importatnt as to give up a first round pick to a team that has some aging players?

What was behind this trade?

Pure salary dump. Stan Kroenke is tired of paying luxury tax. Even after letting Kleiza walk and dumping Hunter, the Nuggets look to be about 500K over the luxury tax threshold. So look for another give away to dump a little more salary.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I guess I just happen to agree with Charley Rose about being one of the most overrated players in the nba.

"Yes, he can run, jump and dash to the ball from the weak side to dramatically block shots. And his masquerading as a tall, tattooed fowl is amusing if juvenile. But he can't shoot a lick and, most importantly, is incapable of adequately defending virtually any opponent on a man-to-man basis. What Andersen does is surely crowd-pleasing and can occasionally impact the outcome of a game, but it's mostly phony defense"

I agree with Charley Rose on this one. Birdman is a stat monger who constantly checks how many blocks he as during the course of the game. He's a show boater who's more worried about his stats than playing actual defense. Yeah, he gets a lot of weak side blocks, but he also leaves his man unguarded and unboxed out when going for the help side block. Remember LaMarcus dunking on him after he swatted Rudy's shot? That's Chris Andersen in a nut shell - lots of weak side blocks on smaller players, but can't actually stop the man he's (supposedly) guarding.

Joel is a MUCH better defender and a better rebounder. He's also not one failed drug test away from a lfetime ban. Andersen is more fun to watch, but Joel will help you win more games. I'd take Joel any day over Andersen.

BNM

 

[Wheels]

Andersen is more fun to watch, but Joel will help you win more games. I'd take Joel any day over Andersen.
BNM

Thats what it boils down to for me. Winning.

 

[Boob-No-More]

It sounds like the wildly inconsitent and equally immature J.R. Smith has had a rather eventful summer.

This is not the kind of player I want to rely on night in and night out as my starting SG. He has all the talent in the world, but I'm not sure he'll ever get his head on straight. He reminds me a lot of J.R. Rider - great talent, but immature, poor decision making that leads to tons of problems off the court.

BNM

 

[maxiep]

Q about the Hunter trade . . . Denver traded Hunter and a 1st round pick for a second round pick. Was that the deal? Was the salary dump of Hunter so importatnt as to give up a first round pick to a team that has some aging players?

What was behind this trade?

It was a luxury tax move that saved them a little over $7MM.