OT: Kobe or MJ?

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Stevenson

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Watching Kobe play with all of his injuries as well as he has made me think - is he better than MJ? They are both so similar - the skill, passion, drive, championships. I still give Jordan the nod by a hair, but I'm not sure why. But it is a close call, is it not?
 
MJ and it isn't even close. He has a huge mental edge IMO. While Kobe does have game winners, Jordan was just on a different level.
 
Jordan's defense was pretty darn amazing and Kobe has never really been a huge difference-maker at that end of the floor IMO. I think Jordan was better than Kobe was/is.

Ed O.
 
Pretty sure kobe has been all nba defensive team 9 times, 2 times 2nd team. It's still jordan though
 
Kobe only raped one person while MJ has been raping children of their shoe money for 20 + years.
 
yeah, but at least they have cool looking shoes.

adidas-kobe-2.jpg
 
Jordan's defense was pretty darn amazing and Kobe has never really been a huge difference-maker at that end of the floor IMO. I think Jordan was better than Kobe was/is.

Ed O.

Jordan's a pretty overrated defender. But then again, so is Kobe.

Jordan by a longshot.

However, I don't think he's #1 all time 'by a mile'. You could make an argument for Wilt and Bill Russell (especially Wilt).
 
what is the highest possible PER? wilt had a 31.8 PER in his 50.4/25.7 season on 48.5 MINUTES PER GAME?? :lol:

at 31 years old he put up 24.3/23.8/8.6
 
MJ by far, imo. AND, he wasn't a Laker.

Go Blazers
 
The only people who try and put Kobe up there on the same podium as MJ are Laker fans. Kobe is the best SG of this era and #2 of all time but him and Jordan are on two different levels.
 
Jordan's a pretty overrated defender. But then again, so is Kobe.

I don't want to play the "I'm old" card, but... did you see Jordan play?

He was an incredible defender in his prime.

Jordan by a longshot.

However, I don't think he's #1 all time 'by a mile'. You could make an argument for Wilt and Bill Russell (especially Wilt).

I still think Wilt is the most dominating (which is my definition of "best", rather than "put them all on the floor together at the same time"-best) as good as Jordan was.

Ed O.
 
Jordan's defense was pretty darn amazing and Kobe has never really been a huge difference-maker at that end of the floor IMO. I think Jordan was better than Kobe was/is.

Ed O.

Pippen was amazing on defense and is a Top 50 player alone on his individual defense. He defended Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Gary Payton, and allowed defensive slugs like John Paxon, Craig Hodges, and Steve Kerr to be impact players despite their lack of defense.
Jordan won DPOY awards because of Pippen.
 
what is the highest possible PER? wilt had a 31.8 PER in his 50.4/25.7 season on 48.5 MINUTES PER GAME?? :lol:

PER is pace-adjusted and as I recall those leagues played at considerably higher pace. I find it pretty unlikely that Chamberlain could replicate his raw stats in the current NBA.

That said, his PER shows that a prime Chamberlain would be arguably the best player in the NBA in any year.

As for the original question, I think it's pretty clearly Jordan. Jordan is the only player I've seen who was able to go full-speed at both ends (by which I mean, carry an offense's primary scoring load while still being a high-level defensive presence) all game long. He wasn't doing that later in his career (he developed a regular season cruise control mode in the second three-peat) but prior to his first retirement, it was unreal how good he could be end to end.

The best two scorers directly after him, IMO, were Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady (before back injuries destroyed his effectiveness). Both were capable of spurts of defensive excellence, but neither could keep it up all game long, or even most of the game, while carrying a primary scoring load. McGrady did his best full-game defensive work as a Raptor when Vince Carter was the primary scorer and Bryant did his best full-game defensive work when Shaquille O'Neal was the primary scorer.

LeBron James is the closest thing yet that I've seen to Jordan in terms of being capable of doing that kind of work on the offensive and defensive end for the entire game. I think James is the guy who really compares to Jordan as a talent, not Bryant.
 
PER is pace-adjusted and as I recall those leagues played at considerably higher pace. I find it pretty unlikely that Chamberlain could replicate his raw stats in the current NBA.

That said, his PER shows that a prime Chamberlain would be arguably the best player in the NBA in any year.

As for the original question, I think it's pretty clearly Jordan. Jordan is the only player I've seen who was able to go full-speed at both ends (by which I mean, carry an offense's primary scoring load while still being a high-level defensive presence) all game long. He wasn't doing that later in his career (he developed a regular season cruise control mode in the second three-peat) but prior to his first retirement, it was unreal how good he could be end to end.

The best two scorers directly after him, IMO, were Kobe Bryant and Tracy McGrady (before back injuries destroyed his effectiveness). Both were capable of spurts of defensive excellence, but neither could keep it up all game long, or even most of the game, while carrying a primary scoring load. McGrady did his best full-game defensive work as a Raptor when Vince Carter was the primary scorer and Bryant did his best full-game defensive work when Shaquille O'Neal was the primary scorer.

LeBron James is the closest thing yet that I've seen to Jordan in terms of being capable of doing that kind of work on the offensive and defensive end for the entire game. I think James is the guy who really compares to Jordan as a talent, not Bryant.

I was convinced at the time that Carter/McGrady was Jordan/Pippen redux. I was an idiot at a young age.
 
I was convinced at the time that Carter/McGrady was Jordan/Pippen redux. I was an idiot at a young age.

Yeah, it was an easy parallel to make. They did seem like an exciting young duo.
 
I don't want to play the "I'm old" card, but... did you see Jordan play?

He was an incredible defender in his prime.

I still think Wilt is the most dominating (which is my definition of "best", rather than "put them all on the floor together at the same time"-best) as good as Jordan was.

Ed O.

I never said he wasn't a great defender, but I do believe people mythicize (sp?) him quite a bit. I stand firm on my belief that Pippen was the best defender on those Bulls teams.

And as far as GOAT, I'd personally put Wilt ahead of Jordan. But that's just me.
 
I never said he wasn't a great defender, but I do believe people mythicize (sp?) him quite a bit. I stand firm on my belief that Pippen was the best defender on those Bulls teams.

I agree with that. Jordan was a great defender, but his defensive impact was overstated a bit due to his overall brilliance. I think Pippen was the "defensive genius" of those teams and arguably the greatest perimeter defender ever.
 
I raised the original question and have to say that to me, Wilt is the greatest single force in the history of the NBA, and I watched him play (to really play the old card!)

That said, I think Kobe is getting short shrift here. He has everything MJ had - the killer instinct, the game winners, the championships. Not quite the defender of Jordan, but he's not chopped liver either. When you guys says "its not close" you give no reasons, and with all due respect, it actually is that close.
 
I'd say MJ, but I'd pay good money to be able to sit in a gym and watch a one-on-one game with both players at their peaks.
 
I raised the original question and have to say that to me, Wilt is the greatest single force in the history of the NBA, and I watched him play (to really play the old card!)

That said, I think Kobe is getting short shrift here. He has everything MJ had - the killer instinct, the game winners, the championships. Not quite the defender of Jordan, but he's not chopped liver either. When you guys says "its not close" you give no reasons, and with all due respect, it actually is that close.

I don't see much evidence it's that close.

Jordan's career PER: 27.9.

Bryant's career PER: 23.6.

That's not really that close. Add in that Jordan was a better defender (as you acknowledge) and that Jordan's PER was dragged down by his age 38 and 39 seasons (Kobe's only had a SINGLE season where his PER was more than Jordan's career average; he got to 28.0 one season and has only cracked 26 two other times) and... it's not close.

Jordan was more efficient. He was on better teams. He was the best player in the NBA for almost his whole career and he was the best player on his team for his whole career (in spite of playing with Pippen). He blows Kobe out of the water in win shares (MJ had ten seasons with more WS than Kobe's highest season).

Again: I don't see it as being close. Kobe is great, but he's not in Jordan's class.

Ed O.
 
Jordan would rip Kobe's head off one on one. Completely different level of maturity on the court. Pippen was an elite defender, of course, but he had nothing to do with Jordan's defense. MJ was a consistently dominant defender on and off the ball. His defense was every bit as impressive as his play on the offensive end.

It baffles me why Kobe has been on the all-defensive team. While he has flashes of brilliance...which we get force-fed on sportscenter...he is not consistently even above average.
 
Considering Bryant modeled much of his game after MJ, I'd say it's MJ.
 

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