OT: Spurs sign Marcus Haislip

[Rastapopoulos]

Well, Parker hasn't been HORRIBLE... he's been a starting-level (or near-starting-level) player. And he's being waived for salary cap/Hedo reasons.

Of course, he was a lot better AFTER being in Europe than he was BEFORE. Remember, he was one of the three first round picks traded for Eddie Griffin. The others were Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins, I believe.

BUT... your point is a good one. Some posters (*coughProfCcoughcough*) has a tendency to overstate the prospects of the international players.

I have no idea who that poster is, but he sounds like an intelligent fellow.

As far as I know, international free agents never pan out. They never become stars in the NBA. The international NBA stars or near-stars have been like Kukoc and Dirk and Manu: guys that were drafted and came over either right away or while the drafting team still retained their rights.

Well that's just silly. Just because a team happened to draft them doesn't make them good. And you're completely forgetting Jose Calderon. Also Jorge Gabajosa, who looked very good until he played on a bad leg injury (a la Martell). So maybe you should listen to this "ProfC" person. And Navarro was second team all-NBA, but decided it wasn't for him. If he'd stayed longer, who knows, he might've got a lot better.

The players that bombed out of the NBA, found success internationally and came back have NOT succeeded, as far as I can tell...

Depends what you mean. If by "bombed out" you mean "never drafted", then players like Anthony Mason and PJ Brown would have to be included.

neither have the mature international players who came over as free agents.

...except where they have (Calderon).

Sarunas Jasikevicius. Sasha Danilovic. Aleksandar Djordjevic. The list goes on and of of players that had success internationally and just didn't fit into the NBA.

All slow guards. With zone defense, a very skilled guard can find success in Europe even if he is slow-of-foot. (Navarro is another one.) Of course, now zone is allowed in the NBA (unlike in Danilovic/Djordjevic and that "other" Arvydas (M something - got no time for the Hornets)'s time, there's more hope for them. After all, Bibby's still playing...

There will be a first time that a player emerges from the international scene as a free agent and succeeds in the NBA, but the odds are stacked against it happening this year.

Don't make me bring up Calderon AGAIN.

 

[Ed O]

Of course, he was a lot better AFTER being in Europe than he was BEFORE. Remember, he was one of the three first round picks traded for Eddie Griffin. The others were Richard Jefferson and Jason Collins, I believe.

Well... he was a first round pick. Even as well as he's played for Toronto, he's not been a very good first round pick. It is true, though, that he improved. Players often do between the ages of 24 and 31, irrespective of where they play.

Well that's just silly. Just because a team happened to draft them doesn't make them good.

Actually, if a player goes undrafted the likelihood of him being not very good are much higher. Because NBA teams are kind of smart that way.

And you're completely forgetting Jose Calderon.

You are correct. I did forget about him. He is a near-star who was undrafted.

Also Jorge Gabajosa, who looked very good until he played on a bad leg injury (a la Martell).

Garbajosa had a PER of 12.1 as a 29 year-old rookie. I don't think that he looked "very good" at all.

So maybe you should listen to this "ProfC" person.

I listen to him. I just shake my head at most of what I hear.

And Navarro was second team all-NBA, but decided it wasn't for him. If he'd stayed longer, who knows, he might've got a lot better.

*shakes head*

Navarro was drafted. And he never made second team all-NBA.

Depends what you mean. If by "bombed out" you mean "never drafted", then players like Anthony Mason and PJ Brown would have to be included.

Hm. PJ Brown played A season in Greece after being a second round pick. I don't think that I would consider that "bombing out" or really "finding success"... I mean, he succeeded but a single year was clearly a placeholder until he got back to the states... rather than Tony Parker or Haislip or other guys who have spent more time internationally.

Anthony Mason was drafted in the third round and never really found success overseas... he split a season between Turkey and Venezuela.

...except where they have (Calderon).

Well, I don't think that Calderon, at 23, was a mature player. You might disagree with that. You are right, though, that ONE international free agent has come to the NBA and made an impact. So it's just a question of how long the league needs to wait until a second does.

Ed O.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Well... he was a first round pick. Even as well as he's played for Toronto, he's not been a very good first round pick. It is true, though, that he improved. Players often do between the ages of 24 and 31, irrespective of where they play.

He "bombed out" of the NBA. Now he's a solid rotation player. Cleveland want him. Cleveland has championship pretensions.

Actually, if a player goes undrafted the likelihood of him being not very good are much higher. Because NBA teams are kind of smart that way.

Ginobili was one pick away from being undrafted. As you say, players improve. And conversely, some players are wild reaches (Kwame Brown). NBA teams are kind of dumb that way.

You are correct. I did forget about him. He is a near-star who was undrafted.

That fact alone should cause you to retreat into abject surrender.

Garbajosa had a PER of 12.1 as a 29 year-old rookie. I don't think that he looked "very good" at all.

That's because you're only "looking" at his per. He was a Battier-type player. I know how you hate those because their skills are not easily quantifiable and therefore you insist that they don't have any.

I listen to him. I just shake my head at most of what I hear.

One of those "how could any human be so wise!" kind of shakes, no doubt.

Navarro was drafted. And he never made second team all-NBA.

That was mis-typing. I meant all-Rookie. He would never make second team all-NBA, for sure. But he could score at will against the "Redeem Team".

Hm. PJ Brown played A season in Greece after being a second round pick. I don't think that I would consider that "bombing out" or really "finding success"... I mean, he succeeded but a single year was clearly a placeholder until he got back to the states... rather than Tony Parker or Haislip or other guys who have spent more time internationally.
Anthony Mason was drafted in the third round and never really found success overseas... he split a season between Turkey and Venezuela.

You're quibbling. Those are two perfectly decent counterexamples.

Well, I don't think that Calderon, at 23, was a mature player. You might disagree with that. You are right, though, that ONE international free agent has come to the NBA and made an impact. So it's just a question of how long the league needs to wait until a second does.

Andres Nocioni makes two. That didn't take long, did it? Perhaps a little research would help?