Pat & Bazz

[KingSpeed]

“All of a sudden, the league slipped the plus/minus (into the boxscores) without any of us knowing about it,” Popovich said of a practice that began last season. “It’s the most meaningless thing on the whole sheet. I don’t know where (the idea) came from, who pioneered it, who slid it into the NBA, who thought it was cool.

”I’ve got no clue, but it’s the most useless thing there is on the whole stat sheet. It’s dangerous. It creates the wrong impressions for players. I hate it.”
/////

Interesting. I disagree though. If I go into a game and play tough defense and take smart shots (if they pass me the ball) and then come out of the game, what happened to our lead matters to me. Even if I didn't score or grab a rebound, if the lead was kept or extended, I have to feel good with how I did. I didn't fuck it up. Tonight? Baldwin fucked it up.

 

[Scalma]

Interesting. I disagree though.

I wonder whose opinion I’ll go with.

 

[Strenuus]

Stotts says he uses that stat as a factor in making decisions. It's not about who had the ball in his hands. There's defense. Blown coverages. And being out of position on offense.

Do we have an actual quote (or quotes) of him saying that?

And someone in the memphis thread said that +/- was a team stat. I'm trying to remember if it was you or someone else.

 

[Sarni]

I agree with Pop on that. In isolation that stat has no real meaning, it’s not an individual stat and depends on other players performances. However, if two bench players consistently put huge negative numbers into that line, that might be an indication of their underperformance.

For example, looking at Raptors bench they have some enormous +/- together which is clear indication of their strength and competitive advantage it gives them over other teams in the league.

In one off games it has zero meaning for me though, especially for players who play dead rubber minutes towards the end.

 

[BonesJones]

King will cherry pick stats to make his argument. Baldwin didn't even touch or do anything negative or positive on the court today so to say he's not ready because he had a -14 is absolutely silly. +/- can show the affects of play if it matches someone's production. Someone plays horrible and has a horrible +/-, it shows that their horrible play hurt the team. But if they played great and have a negative +/-, it means that they played well while their teammates struggled and/or the other team got hot. A positive +/- while playing terribly means that the team did well when they were on the court in spite of their horrible play. (Pat's case some games).

+/- is the end all, be all. But it can be helpful as a measurement tool if it's not priotized more then the eye test (and a knowledgeable one at that) as well as other statistics.

 

[mook]

Kind of shocked this thread is getting so much traction when the much bigger story is Aminu's slump. He shot 33% in March.

Was really happy to see him take 6 of them in the last game and make 3.

 

[TBpup]

Baldwin was a -14 in 3:37 tonight. He is not ready to give us serious minutes in important games.

He touched the ball like twice. He just had the misfortune of being on the floor with Pat.

 

[rotary111]

He touched the ball like twice. He just had the misfortune of being on the floor with Pat.

And Bazz!!

I would have thought coach would have run some plays for Wade to see if he could make a play. Confidence is huge for development. Bazz and Pat jacking up shots with a big lead isn't smart basketball. Bazz could have broke his man down and dished for an easy 2 or even a lay in. Instead they jacked up shots.....and missed. Losing the big lead and forcing the starters back in.

Call timeout and get the team back under control. That was a good teaching moment that could come back and bite them in the ass if it happens in the post season. We've seen it a few times already.

 

[Scalma]

And Bazz!!

I would have thought coach would have run some plays for Wade to see if he could make a play. Confidence is huge for development. Bazz and Pat jacking up shots with a big lead isn't smart basketball. Bazz could have broke his man down and dished for an easy 2 or even a lay in. Instead they jacked up shots.....and missed. Losing the big lead and forcing the starters back in.

Call timeout and get the team back under control. That was a good teaching moment that could come back and bite them in the ass if it happens in the post season. We've seen it a few times already.

Yeah I’m not pats biggest fan but last nights Memphis run was mainly on Shabazz. He was lazy on defense and selfish on offense. The defense can be forgiven since he’s usually locked in, but his selfishness, or inability to get others involved, is becoming a habit and it’s not cool man!

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Pat and Bazz's job in the playoffs is mostly to not do anything stupid, and hit open shots. I'm confident
in the former, we'll see about the latter. Regardless, sans injury, their roles will be somewhat diminished.

Unfortunately, we don't necessarily live in a "sans injury" world.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

As for +/-, I think it's a useful stat at the extreme ends. If a player consistently has a high +/-, I
think it says something very good about the player. Conversely, if a player consistently has a low +/-,
it says something very bad about them.

For sake of argument, "consistently" probably means for 1/3 to 1/2 of an NBA season - not just 1 or 2 games.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Baldwin was a -14 in 3:37 tonight. He is not ready to give us serious minutes in important games.

I'm not sure if Baldwin ever even had the ball in his hands; and I think he is only effective with the ball in his hands. That's not an argument for more playing time for him; I just think it's a fact.

 

[e_blazer]

This article is a bit dated, but it has a good discussion of the overall value of +/- vs PER as predictive stats:

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5190651

For general information’s sake, Napier sports a 14.34 PER, while Pat’s is only 9.16.