Payton Believes Stockton Was Tougher To Guard Than Jordan...Interesting read

[magnifier661]

Lillard is off to a better start. It's a pretty fair comparison, given they were rookies at the same age and both played a lot of minutes in their first year.

Even back then, though, you could see Payton's commitment to defense, and he was a better passer.

Holy shit! On paper, Lillard dominated Payton his first season!

 

[mook]

Holy shit! On paper, Lillard dominated Payton his first season!

Well, to be fair Payton's team made the playoffs while Lillard's didn't. And the talent comparison in the starting unit isn't far off. Our bench fucking sucked, while Payton only played 27mpg because they had a pretty nice bench.

In a way, Olshey's "strategy" of having an epicly bad bench may pay big dividends in Lillard's development. If you put Lillard in place of Payton on that Sonics team maybe he only plays 27mpg and maybe needs 3-4 seasons before he really breaks out just like Payton did.

 

[mook]

I put "strategy" in quotes because it seems a little questionable whether Olshey really intended for the bench to be as bad as it was. Given where we are now (with Lillard having tons of experience and a pretty stocked bench) it seems to have worked out nicely. But I just honestly don't know how much of that result is just dumb luck. If Mo Williams chooses differently and Houston doesn't have a fire sale, I'd be pretty depressed about our bench right now.

 

[Sinobas]

Michael Jordan is the most over-rated athlete of all time. I'd take Bird or Magic Johnson over Jordan, but Jordan has been so hyped that people believe he's like a god. Remember he and Pippen didn't win shit until the Celtics and Pistons got old.

Also, the Bulls were good enough to make it to the WCF without him. That roster was not very talented, which goes to show how good Pippen was, and how well they were coached.

 

[dviss1]

Michael Jordan is the most over-rated athlete of all time. I'd take Bird or Magic Johnson over Jordan, but Jordan has been so hyped that people believe he's like a god. Remember he and Pippen didn't win shit until the Celtics and Pistons got old.

Also, the Bulls were good enough to make it to the WCF without him. That roster was not very talented, which goes to show how good Pippen was, and how well they were coached.

Is there a Doctor in the house? Somebody needs their brain examined.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

Michael Jordan is the most over-rated athlete of all time. I'd take Bird or Magic Johnson over Jordan, but Jordan has been so hyped that people believe he's like a god. Remember he and Pippen didn't win shit until the Celtics and Pistons got old.

Also, the Bulls were good enough to make it to the WCF without him. That roster was not very talented, which goes to show how good Pippen was, and how well they were coached.

Wait........what?

 

[magnifier661]

Michael Jordan is the most over-rated athlete of all time. I'd take Bird or Magic Johnson over Jordan, but Jordan has been so hyped that people believe he's like a god. Remember he and Pippen didn't win shit until the Celtics and Pistons got old.

Also, the Bulls were good enough to make it to the WCF without him. That roster was not very talented, which goes to show how good Pippen was, and how well they were coached.

LMAO! WTF are you talking about? Making the WCF one year doesn't mean shit, compared to 6 titles won with Jordan leading the team. Without Jordan, the Bulls proven they cannot win a ring. Stick with the facts.

Oh and since we are one the subject. Jordan has a career PER average (including the lame years on Wizards) of 29. Fucking 27.9 career PER?!?! Just to put it into perspective; Kobe has a career average of 22.5.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

and lets look at Pippen; whom you said was more valuable.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html

Career PER of 18.6, with the best year being 23. Jordan had 4 years of over 31 PER

 

[blue9]

Michael Jordan is the most over-rated athlete of all time. I'd take Bird or Magic Johnson over Jordan, but Jordan has been so hyped that people believe he's like a god. Remember he and Pippen didn't win shit until the Celtics and Pistons got old.

Also, the Bulls were good enough to make it to the WCF without him. That roster was not very talented, which goes to show how good Pippen was, and how well they were coached.

Also, if Sabas had come over when he was drafted it would have completely changed everything. With him on the Blazers do the Bulls three-peat twice? Do they win ANY championships? Without the hardware, is MJ the GOAT?

 

[BigGameDamian]

Michael Jordan is the most over-rated athlete of all time. I'd take Bird or Magic Johnson over Jordan, but Jordan has been so hyped that people believe he's like a god. Remember he and Pippen didn't win shit until the Celtics and Pistons got old.

Also, the Bulls were good enough to make it to the WCF without him. That roster was not very talented, which goes to show how good Pippen was, and how well they were coached.

I agree with you and although I'm not much of a fan I think Magic Johnson is the best to ever play the game. Magic could play all 5 positions and do it better than anyone.

 

[Masbee]

Also, if Sabas had come over when he was drafted it would have completely changed everything. With him on the Blazers do the Bulls three-peat twice? Do they win ANY championships? Without the hardware, is MJ the GOAT?

Probably not, but still considered one of the all-time greats.

His stats are off the hook:

10 times he was top 3 in MVP shares. #1 in NBA history.

He is a career .250 in Win Shares per 48. #1 in NBA history.

And he broke the .300 mark 3 times - which is fucking crazy.

Career PER of 28. #1 in NBA history.

#1 or #2 in PER 11 times.

PER of 30+ 4 times.

7 times was top 3 in Steals per game. #1 3 times.

Career 30 PPG. #1 in NBA history.

10 times was #1 in PPG.

And, Jordan's stats were just as good as playoffs - no choking like a few other stars did in their career.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

Magic was great, but Jordan's stats were better. Magic had a better supporting cast as well, which makes direct comparisons tricky. Was Magic able to be as great because he had more support and could pick his spots, or would Magic have carried the burden and been able to maintain a super-high level of play? There is no way to know.

I am curious, if Jordan had only, say, 3 rings, who would be the GOAT?

 

[Masbee]

I agree with you and although I'm not much of a fan I think Magic Johnson is the best to ever play the game. Magic could play all 5 positions and do it better than anyone.

Yeah but Jordan has more rings.

And, better stats.

What does it matter if Magic could play 5 positions. He only gets to play one at a time.

 

[mook]

Just clicked on the Jordan player profile and was stunned to see he's now 50. Damn I'm old.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Perhaps a better comparison to Damion Lillard would be Isiah Thomas?

 

[magnifier661]

Perhaps a better comparison to Damion Lillard would be Isiah Thomas?

He reminds me of this great player. I don't really remember his name, but he was ROY last season and wears 0. That guy will be another player people compare to. Will design a new mold.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Perhaps a better comparison to Damion Lillard would be Isiah Thomas?

You mean, the guy who is fifth in NBA history for career apg, and the only guy other than John Stockton to average over 13.5 apg for a single season? Hmm...I don't think Lillard is/will be that pure a point guard.

 

[mook]

He reminds me of Wilt Chamberlain.

You know, because he's black.

 

[handiman]

The thing people forget about when comparing various point guards to Payton is how freakishly good he was in the post. It took several years for his outside game to pick up, but he was always a top tier passer because his inside game kept him from being an offensive liability.

 

[Sinobas]

You guys are idiots. No athlete wins a championship by themselves. Jordan wouldn't have won without Pippen, Bird wouldn't have won without McHale, Johnson wouldn't have one if he spent his career on the Washington Bullets.


Jordan is the most over-hyped player ever, just compare the level he was marketed compared to the other NBA greats. He's up there among the elite, but his hype is way out of whack. People masturbate to his name like he's in another dimension. I personally think there were a few players better than him.

 

[Sinobas]

LMAO! WTF are you talking about? Making the WCF one year doesn't mean shit, compared to 6 titles won with Jordan leading the team. Without Jordan, the Bulls proven they cannot win a ring. Stick with the facts.

What are you talking about? Jordan never lead the team without Pippen. And if you subtract a player of Pippen's calibur from the equation, I really doubt the Bulls would have still won those titles.

 

[handiman]

What are you talking about? Jordan never lead the team without Pippen. And if you subtract a player of Pippen's calibur from the equation, I really doubt the Bulls would have still won those titles.

You're calling everyone idiots and then making a statement like that? Without Pippen, those Bulls had very little talent. Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc aren't exactly hall of fame material, and Rodman was very one-dimensional at that stage of his career. Everyone else was basically a journeyman player.

 

[Sinobas]

You're calling everyone idiots and then making a statement like that? Without Pippen, those Bulls had very little talent. Horace Grant and Toni Kukoc aren't exactly hall of fame material, and Rodman was very one-dimensional at that stage of his career. Everyone else was basically a journeyman player.

That is exactly what I said, and that supports my point of how important Pippen was to the team. Pippen was able to lead that group to the Eastern Conference finals, that just shows what a good player he was, and yet people act like MJ won those titles by himself. Without Pippen, I really doubt the Bulls would have won the titles. Remember that the Bulls went up against some very good teams, who played them close. Blazers, Jazz, Suns, Sonics.....

 

[KingSpeed]

Pippen didn't lead Bulls to Eastern Conference Finals. They lost in the second round. ECF was Knicks/Pacers

 

[Denny Crane]

Pippen didn't lead Bulls to Eastern Conference Finals. They lost in the second round. ECF was Knicks/Pacers

+1

I don't think anyone would dispute Pippen was a great player and helped the Bulls win championships. Without Jordan, they didn't. Without Pippen, they didn't. I happen to think if Pippen didn't miss game 7 of the playoffs against Detroit the year before their first championship that they'd have won 7 instead of 6.

 

[jlprk]

Holy shit! On paper, Lillard dominated Payton his first season!

Minutes played. Nate McMillan was a better player than Eric Maynor and Ronnie Price.

 

[handiman]

That is exactly what I said, and that supports my point of how important Pippen was to the team. Pippen was able to lead that group to the Eastern Conference finals, that just shows what a good player he was, and yet people act like MJ won those titles by himself. Without Pippen, I really doubt the Bulls would have won the titles. Remember that the Bulls went up against some very good teams, who played them close. Blazers, Jazz, Suns, Sonics.....

What was that about supporting your point? Feeling a bit silly now, I bet...

 

[BigGameDamian]

Pippen didn't lead Bulls to Eastern Conference Finals. They lost in the second round. ECF was Knicks/Pacers

Well thats still more than Jordan ever did without Pippen and might I remind everyone that's the year that Pippen should have won MVP not Karl Malone.

 

[Natebishop3]

The thing that really surprised me was how Stockton was voted one of the most dirty players back in the day. Dude was all kinds of dirty.

 

[Denny Crane]

Well thats still more than Jordan ever did without Pippen and might I remind everyone that's the year that Pippen should have won MVP not Karl Malone.

Pippen played 20 MPG as a rookie backup SF. The Bulls won 50, led by Jordan and Dave Corzine, and equalled what the Bulls did without Jordan (2nd round exit).

 

[Public Defender]

Here's the video, it's pretty entertaining.

http://www.craveonline.com/sports/articles/190519-no-one-knows-who-john-stockton-is

I was never a Stockton fan - him and Malone always drove me crazy - but this video is awesome. Love the fan gawking about having seen Charles Barkley, and then realizing she's talking to Stockton. Good find.

And Stockton was an absolute machine. He's one of those guys who just knew what to do in every situation, never played out of control, would never be out-thought on the court. Drove me nuts the way he'd always make the smart play on offense or defense. Boring, sometimes, to watch that pick-and-roll do its thing, but Sloan, Stockton, and Malone were made for each other and ran an amazingly efficient offense, and a fundamentally sound (though dirty as hell) defense.

 

[Sinobas]

Pippen lead the Bulls to 55 wins, and they were 2 points away from beating the Knicks in 6 games, but they lost in 7. The Knicks eventually went on to go to the championship. So without Jordan, they were still one of the top teams in the East. So even though it wasn't the WCF, the point still stands.

Anyway, I don't even care much about this. I just think it's stupid to see people worshiping an athlete like he's some kind of god. But if you guys think MJ was so great, go ahead and stick his card down the front of your shorts.

You just mention that MJ may not be the best ever and people flip out like you've just posted posted a pornographic picture of Jesus Christ.