PEDS Only..........

[Rick2583]

I mean no disrespect to anyone but, I'm creating this thread so instead of reading about this topic in thread after thread that has NOTHING to do with this subject we could leave it all on this one. Just a thought.

 

[totus44]

Great idea Rick.

 

[Rick2583]

Great idea Rick.

We'll see.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Good Idea-r Rick....!

I wonder when PEZ candy pieces, and PEZ dispensers will turn into PED dispensers. After all A-Roid was chewing on Gummies. I wouldn't put it past PED docs to utilize a common PED/PEZ dispenser. One that could be used without anyone knowing. Until they ban Chewing Gum in the Dugout, Sun Flower seeds, and PEZ/PED candy.

No mang, ye can't have any of my PEZ or gummies. Better yet, take a handful....

going back to the OP, I believe in the next decade, MLB will make more waivers, for Surgeons to utilize steroids, and other drugs which are commonly used in the public/private sector. Post Surgical, to enable an athletes body to recover and heal quicker, better, and with less post surgical probs. This has been happening in people like myself for over a decade, and 10 surgeries later. Soon MLB will have to take a hard look at their own policies, while implementing a better system, to eliminate the need for a waiver. Yet, how that could happen, I don't know. It may open a can of worms. Yet, MLB should realize, they are like the antiquated Vatican, a few millennium behind the modern times, of modern medical Protocol.....!!!

 

[yankeesince59]

...lol.

 

[Rick2583]

In the last 5 years your 40 & 50 HR seasons are drastically down so I think we're heading in the right direction.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I hope so, and it seems that way....

 

[Rick2583]

I hope so, and it seems that way....

Here's a telling stat. Players with 40 or more HRs.................

1996 = 17
1997 = 12
1998 = 13
1999 = 13
2000 = 16
2001 = 12
2002 = 8
2003 = 10
2004 = 9
2005 = 9
2006 = 11
2007 = 5
2008 = 2
2009 = 5
2010 = 2
2011 = 2
2012 = 6
2013 = 2
2014 = 1

 

[totus44]

Telling how so? That's anecdotal evidence at best Rick. Ignoring the batters and pitchers in those given years, their ages, the stadium and weather variables, let's talk about the equipment alone. The measured tolerances in the change over between Spalding and Rawlings has been determined to produce a batted ball with +/- 50 feet of flight. That means that a ball within tolerance can varying that much. So much so when you go and look at those hr hitters and apply this tolerance as a normalization factor, the trend washes out. Were players juicing up to 2003, sure. But they also benefited from juiced balls.

I think its important to lay out all the parameters in this multi variable question. To saying its telling is a bit of hyperbole. That window of elevated hr hitters does correlate to what we believe is the steroidcera, however one also has to assume pitchers also engaged in the practice. So am I to believe increased bat speed was a positive benefit, but increased velocity was a negative?

I think to make this argument in a credible way, you need to layer the data. And Rob don't give me the ocam's razor bull, number of 40+ hr hitters by year is not the least common denominator. We do not know, verified by experimental evidence in a double blind fashion, what performance effects PEDs have on baseball stats.

 

[Rick2583]

Telling how so? That's anecdotal evidence at best Rick. Ignoring the batters and pitchers in those given years, their ages, the stadium and weather variables, let's talk about the equipment alone. The measured tolerances in the change over between Spalding and Rawlings has been determined to produce a batted ball with +/- 50 feet of flight. That means that a ball within tolerance can varying that much. So much so when you go and look at those hr hitters and apply this tolerance as a normalization factor, the trend washes out. Were players juicing up to 2003, sure. But they also benefited from juiced balls.

I think its important to lay out all the parameters in this multi variable question. To saying its telling is a bit of hyperbole. That window of elevated hr hitters does correlate to what we believe is the steroidcera, however one also has to assume pitchers also engaged in the practice. So am I to believe increased bat speed was a positive benefit, but increased velocity was a negative?

I think to make this argument in a credible way, you need to layer the data. And Rob don't give me the ocam's razor bull, number of 40+ hr hitters by year is not the least common denominator. We do not know, verified by experimental evidence in a double blind fashion, what performance effects PEDs have on baseball stats.

So the fact that the decade of the 80s saw only 13 players hit 40 or more HRs compared to the 90s that had 72 Or the 2000s (2000-2009) had 87 had little or nothing to do with PEDs? Please tell me that you really don't believe that.

If these #s & the one's in my previous post are not telling stats then I don't know what is.

 

[totus44]

So the fact that the decade of the 80s saw only 13 players hit 40 or more HRs compared to the 90s that had 72 Or the 2000s (2000-2009) had 87 had little or nothing to do with PEDs? Please tell me that you really don't believe that.

If these #s & the one's in my previous post are not telling stats then I don't know what is.

So the fact that you chose to ignore all other factors to make your argument valid should be blindly accepted because you want the explanation to be the simple...is that what your saying? Sorry Rick, I don't buy it. +/- 50' of ball flight due to baseball manufacturing tolerances makes more sense. So you want to tell me you buy a dead ball era but you can't buy a juiced ball era? Hypocrisy at its finest. PED creation of more HR is based solely on circumstantial evidence.

Show me statistical proof. When they publish the 2003 group of 103 players and show the analysis to compare the same test group stats for 2004 absent positives tests then you might have an argument. Otherwise your creating a straw man.

 

[Rick2583]

So the fact that you chose to ignore all other factors to make your argument valid should be blindly accepted because you want the explanation to be the simple...is that what your saying? Sorry Rick, I don't buy it. +/- 50' of ball flight due to baseball manufacturing tolerances makes more sense. So you want to tell me you buy a dead ball era but you can't buy a juiced ball era? Hypocrisy at its finest. PED creation of more HR is based solely on circumstantial evidence.

Show me statistical proof. When they publish the 2003 group of 103 players and show the analysis to compare the same test group stats for 2004 absent positives tests then you might have an argument. Otherwise your creating a straw man.

I think if we both presented our argument to whoever would listen "Juiced ball vs. juiced player" that my argument would be the more likely reason for the large HR totals during that 10-15 year period. And if your contention that it was the juiced ball that created the big HR totals then why are guys named McGwire, Sosa, Bonds, Palmeiro & a few others not in the hall of fame?

Sorry my friend but you coming up with different theories for the large HR totals during those years is nothing more then you doing your typical "If you say its white I'm going to say its black" argument. Which you appear to be doing a lot of lately. Especially on this topic.

 

[yankeesince59]

...just to chime in, I think it's safe to say that PEDs had a direct influence on HR totals.

 

[Rick2583]

...just to chime in, I think it's safe to say that PEDs had a direct influence on HR totals.

Apparently that opinion would be shared by everyone. That is, except totus.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Telling how so? That's anecdotal evidence at best Rick. Ignoring the batters and pitchers in those given years, their ages, the stadium and weather variables, let's talk about the equipment alone. The measured tolerances in the change over between Spalding and Rawlings has been determined to produce a batted ball with +/- 50 feet of flight. That means that a ball within tolerance can varying that much. So much so when you go and look at those hr hitters and apply this tolerance as a normalization factor, the trend washes out. Were players juicing up to 2003, sure. But they also benefited from juiced balls.

I think its important to lay out all the parameters in this multi variable question. To saying its telling is a bit of hyperbole. That window of elevated hr hitters does correlate to what we believe is the steroidcera, however one also has to assume pitchers also engaged in the practice. So am I to believe increased bat speed was a positive benefit, but increased velocity was a negative?

I think to make this argument in a credible way, you need to layer the data. And Rob don't give me the ocam's razor bull, number of 40+ hr hitters by year is not the least common denominator. We do not know, verified by experimental evidence in a double blind fashion, what performance effects PEDs have on baseball stats.

WTF? You want to explain what the "ocams razor bull" is before you spew like a Whale?

Come on Tote, you know as well as the rest of this board. Spalding stated their ball was NOt juiced. MLB did indeed prove PED's on the norm, created a HR, which on the avg. traveled an an additional 50 feet. Not at all because the ball was juiced, but because some players were. MLB and other entities did these studies. Can you give me one definitive proof the balls were juiced. No, because there is none....!!!

Its elementary to say HR's were hit an additional 50 feet, when the facts are in, it was the juice in players, that hit the ball an additional 50 feet, and you should of already known this, and seen already.....but you continue to defend PED users......Did I not say a day will come when PED use is accepted even moreso, on a medical level....?? Yes, I fkn did..!!
and YES, these stats of PED era HR's, vs Non-PED Year HR's, are a legit metric of as much.....

when are you going to quit defending guys like A-Roid, and others saying they did NOT break any laws, by using PEDs. OH, your right, but they did do one thing worse. They broke the laws when they perjured themselves, before numerous entities and institutions.....I guess its ok to cheat, then even more ok to lie......ok, I got yer number....! If it fits wear it....if not don't worry about it....!

 

[totus44]

Lol! I'm just asking for empirical evidence. We all assume steroids, HGH etc allows one to hit more HR - not arguing that. But you need to recognize this assumption has yet to be experimentally proven. And that there are in fact other variables that may have contributed independent of PEDs.

New ballparks and the wind conditions created by construction designs that brought fans closer to the game, field sizes, new ball manufacturing, shifts in bat materials spruce/ash issue, advent of weight training and mass building by players, better dietary supplements, elimination of tobacco products, etc.

Sorry, its a more complex issue and there isn't one smoking gun. What about the psychological impact of PED stigma, gulf without proof. You gonna go into the weight room and bulk up and hit more HR in a game where you automatically then get accused of cheating? You are looking for simple answers and I think that's intellectually dishonest at best.

 

[Rick2583]

During the 70s (1970-1979) only 1 player hit over 50 Hrs in a season (George Foster 1977)

During the 80s (1980-1989) NO! player hit over 50 HRs in a season.

20 years & the 50 HR mark was only reached ONCE.

Over the next 20 years (1990-2009) the 50 HR mark was reached 24 times. 24 mother-fucking times. Compared to ONCE in the previous 20 years. And you in your infinite wisdom attribute this to what, juiced balls, bats & wind conditions. Let it go Tom I'm afraid your argument here is turning into nothing more then comic relief at its highest form.

 

[totus44]

The only comic relief is your desperate attempts to jam a square peg in a round hole. You are not considering all the variables, only those you have cherry picked to make this simplistic argument. Whether for not the outcome is the same, your process is disingenuous and wholely laughable.

I expect more from you Rick, Rob too.

 

[yankeesince59]

...pot/kettle.

 

[totus44]

...pot/kettle.

Leave the blacks out of this. We'll get to the Ferguson thread soon enough. Hands up don't shoot!

 

[Mattingly23NY]

The only comic relief is your desperate attempts to jam a square peg in a round hole. You are not considering all the variables, only those you have cherry picked to make this simplistic argument. Whether for not the outcome is the same, your process is disingenuous and wholely laughable.

I expect more from you Rick, Rob too.

Tom, please take NO OFFENSE, to any of my posts, as you know that is not my true nature, to be argumentative. I, on most cases, would rather sit back, analyze the subject, and be not only subjective, objective, or flat out agree....yet in this case, lets look at some honest to God scientific sources, (there's alot more where this link came from)....
If you expect more, then I will not only give you more, I will provide a bit of actual scientific data, and details, of which I am surprised you are not aware about Tote: You keep claiming there is NO scientific data, on the fact Steroid Users, do indeed hit more HR's, and drive the ball approx, another 50 feet on the average. Doh-That translates into more HR's. Doh-

Give us all a break Tote: if you expect more from us, then look within, and don't deny the truth, we are talking about. Why are you still defending the perjurer bastards, who CHEAT...why have you not accepted any scientific proof, yet?

I honestly do not get it Tom, if anyone would of know the truth about all this, then it should be you. After all you are our resident chemists, physicist, and literally engineering some thing humbly as your diligent hard work, enables and betters the society in many ways. You being, our resident scientist, should know this much. Yet, I know you know this much, but wont mention it, why? Honestly, no offense to you, why are you not providing the data we all already know about.

And- its not just heresay on our part, its scientific proof. Juicers hit more HR's, why? Because the ball travels further, with the help of PEDs. End of Story...


HERE IS YOUR PROOF.....!!

Steroids, Other "Drugs", and Baseball

Almost everything you think you know about steroids and baseball is wrong: a detailed analysis with extensive supporting data and citations.

steroids-and-baseball.com

If you want proof from several other Scientific Sources, I will be glad to provide them....!

~FINI~

 

[yankeesince59]

Leave the blacks out of this. We'll get to the Ferguson thread soon enough. Hands up don't shoot!

...OK

 

[Rick2583]

...pot/kettle.

You beat me to it Ron, apparently his head injury is a lot more serious then we all thought. I mean he's yet to answer the simple question as to why guys like Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro & others are STILL not in the HOF. I mean since they had nothing to do with increase in HRs over those 15 years or so. No, it was the juiced balls, The new bats, wind conditions, the power of prayer, a magic jeannie & anything other then PEDs. The tooth fairy, Santa Claus & the easter bunny are also real.

Amazing.

 

[totus44]

Tom, please take NO OFFENSE, to any of my posts, as you know that is not my true nature, to be argumentative. I, on most cases, would rather sit back, analyze the subject, and be not only subjective, objective, or flat out agree....yet in this case, lets look at some honest to God scientific sources, (there's alot more where this link came from)....
If you expect more, then I will not only give you more, I will provide a bit of actual scientific data, and details, of which I am surprised you are not aware about Tote: You keep claiming there is NO scientific data, on the fact Steroid Users, do indeed hit more HR's, and drive the ball approx, another 50 feet on the average. Doh-That translates into more HR's. Doh-

Give us all a break Tote: if you expect more from us, then look within, and don't deny the truth, we are talking about. Why are you still defending the perjurer bastards, who CHEAT...why have you not accepted any scientific proof, yet?

I honestly do not get it Tom, if anyone would of know the truth about all this, then it should be you. After all you are our resident chemists, physicist, and literally engineering some thing humbly as your diligent hard work, enables and betters the society in many ways. You being, our resident scientist, should know this much. Yet, I know you know this much, but wont mention it, why? Honestly, no offense to you, why are you not providing the data we all already know about.

And- its not just heresay on our part, its scientific proof. Juicers hit more HR's, why? Because the ball travels further, with the help of PEDs. End of Story...


HERE IS YOUR PROOF.....!!

Steroids, Other "Drugs", and Baseball

Almost everything you think you know about steroids and baseball is wrong: a detailed analysis with extensive supporting data and citations.

steroids-and-baseball.com

If you want proof from several other Scientific Sources, I will be glad to provide them....!

~FINI~

Did you read this link? Research the source? Try reading the Erik Walker articles. Here is one that reviews him from the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/sports/baseball/27score.html?ref=baseball&_r=0

Reminded my that I completely left out LASIK surgery. Ostriches take your heads out of the sand. I'm happy to have a reasoned debate, but the steroids are bad ...rinse repeat posts need to stop.you are all full of opinions, put down your bias and consider just for a moment that PEDs aren't a factor. You will see that there are many variables to this equation.

Do you have any first or second hand experience with steroids or other PEDs? Let's start there.

 

[totus44]

You beat me to it Ron, apparently his head injury is a lot more serious then we all thought. I mean he's yet to answer the simple question as to why guys like Sosa, McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro & others are STILL not in the HOF. I mean since they had nothing to do with increase in HRs over those 15 years or so. No, it was the juiced balls, The new bats, wind conditions, the power of prayer, a magic jeannie & anything other then PEDs. The tooth fairy, Santa Claus & the easter bunny are also real.

Amazing.

Ah personal attacks, the last bastion of the weak mind.

 

[Rick2583]

Ah personal attacks, the last bastion of the weak mind.

A weak mind? I'm not the one that's been unable to answer a simple question so I'll try again, now, take a breath Tom, put your thinking cap on & for the 3rd time why aren't guys like Sosa, McGwire, Bonds Palmeiro etc in the HOF or at least getting a lot more votes.

The answer should be real simple, repeat after me, you ready? here goes.........."Because they cheated". Now that wasn't so hard was it?

 

[yankeesince59]

...battle of the search engines.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Did you read this link? Research the source? Try reading the Erik Walker articles. Here is one that reviews him from the NYT.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/sports/baseball/27score.html?ref=baseball&_r=0

Reminded my that I completely left out LASIK surgery. Ostriches take your heads out of the sand. I'm happy to have a reasoned debate, but the steroids are bad ...rinse repeat posts need to stop.you are all full of opinions, put down your bias and consider just for a moment that PEDs aren't a factor. You will see that there are many variables to this equation.

Do you have any first or second hand experience with steroids or other PEDs? Let's start there.

Part 1 of 2, damn this Novella....not my intent, to bore with excessively long posts, yet this requires finite attention....

Why yes in fact I do have some experiences with Steroids. If you want to talk other PEDS, I can divulge my experiences with many of those, in only a PM, for your eyes only....! But to answer you Q, perhaps I've had more experiences with PEDs, than the average Ball Player. A confidential need to know, which I won't share publicly, and only in confidential agreements on PM's, not meant for the public.
Indeed I have read this article (link) I posted. Excuse me for not finishing up what I started. I had to detour out of this Msg. Board, to take my Father to the ER, of which he has already had internal heart surgery, tho' minor if such a thing exists?

I put that link up for you Tom, as I see no difference in the case you made.

As you noticed this is Walkers web site as mentioned in the Times link you posted.

PS: Tom-ahs, little brother, please do not take any of this offensively, its not meant to be. Recall, I have made public the need to make some roids useable for good means to MLB players, some that is, and only some. Such would as you well know would enhance post surgical inflammations, arthritis, anemia, and downright advancements to recovery quicker, for all benefits. It's never wise to let a very inflamed joint or muscle group to go on unattended..,

I believe that link is directly the same exact or close to it, as your own written defense; you yourself claim. (Am I on target thus far?). I have no problem with your claim, other than I do believe more HR's have been hit, and data seems to claim as much, so why dispute statistical facts.
You may as well appreciate this link, which boosts your own side of the debate:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissm...-to-legalize-steroids-in-professional-sports/

NTM-there are; as you would guess, directly opposing articles, and scientific research which disputes the previous Link I supplied, ie,:http://www.wired.com/2007/09/a-little-more-m/

(which reveals: roids DO cause more power driven to the ball. The noted articles states the lower body is used only for hitting a ball. Not true at all, look at Ichiro, and you know he can drive a HR as far as anyone when he wants to, which laughingly only happens in BP....

What's next Coca-Cola, since Caffeine and Nicotene are the original PEDS, if one wants to make that Mormon claim, which I do not....!

2nd-ly, I have had Nandrolone, and Stanozolol treatments after surgeries of the shoulder (taken out of its socket, to remove an eleven inch long, 2 inch wide, synovial ganglion mass, beginning in the shoulder socket, and exiting out of the sub scapula, ie, bottom of the shoulder blade). Said Mass was in the form of an S, going up into the spinaglenoid notch, snaking downwards. Yep, the arm had to be taken out of the socket, the shoulder was broken to hinge open; to allow deep access. Put back together with screws, and the Rotator Cuff was repaired thereafter. I went thru this 3 times in 3 years, because a part of the mass was left in place, and continued to grow, as well as the cuff was torn all 3 times. Extremely intrusive as it gets OR wise....

Enough of this novel, Part 2 is follows on below....

 

[Mattingly23NY]

Novella, Part 2 of 2

Roids helped both of my shoulder surgeries to heal, and combat anemia, arthritis, osteoporosis, inflammations, and yes, I am old enough to have osteoporosis, damn it.....! (its really hell growing older, the hard playing of sports as a kid, ie, 7 to 33, had a profound impact on me, as I grew older, and suffer now from youthful over-zealous "3 sheets to the wind, wreckless abandon, in both Baseball, Football, and Wrestling.

10 years later, during lumbar discectomy surgery I became highly anemic and roids were used then as well. To combat anemia, and osteoporosis. Massive Inflammation of the muscle groups during both shoulder surgeries, as well as the spinal discectomy called for as much. Not only was prednisone administered, in the beginning, right after post op.

During these 4 surgeries alone, both Nandrolone, and Stanozolol were administered. As well as a 5th cuff repair, and bone grinding of major osteophytes, the muscles were beyond inflamed, more like arthritic, with major bouts of anemia.

I have been prescribed prednisone as well, if you want to consider that a steroid, since MLB does not count it as such, (honestly I don't either give credence to prednisone or corticosteroids, as full blown Steroid applications, yet Olympiads are banned if prednisone is in their system, yet you know this already, and am preaching to your choir. Not my intent.

3rd, after debilitating lumbar re-construction, I was on a 3rd roid, perhaps Deca, I can't recall, as I was too doped up during that time to comprehend if I was Batman or Superman, or simply Rob the Space Man....!

any and all times, anabolic steroids were used, were after Post Ops....!

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I said I would bring more counter scientific analysis, and here's Johnnny....!!!

Please take a close look, as this research, from Tufts University and other entities, are the facts, I hang my hat on.

However please keep in mind: other scientific points of view, not hypothesis, but actual, factual scientific data-

perhaps the most damning allegations and proof, is from this 1st article, please consider reading, then give me your take please.

http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/Tobin_AJP_Jan08.pdf

http://tuftsjournal.tufts.edu/archive/2007/november/briefs/baseball.shtml

http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/BRJ-Steroids-v3.pdf


“These results certainly do not prove that recent performances are tainted, but they suggest that some suspicion is reasonable,” Tobin