PEDS Only..........

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And for the grand finale, poo-bah:


For purposes of this article, I will assume that the basic
effect of steroids is to increase muscle mass by about 10%,
with other aspects of the player’s performance remaining
constant.
III. HOW MUCH CAN MORE MUSCLE ENHANCE
HOME RUN PRODUCTION?
The increase in muscle mass due to steroids must take
place primarily by increasing the cross-sectional area of the
muscle through the addition of new muscle fiber. It is well
established that the maximum force a muscle can exert is
proportional to its cross-sectional area—muscles from a wide
range of creatures from mollusks to mammals produce maxi-
mum stresses

200 kPa.

It is therefore reasonable to as-
sume that a 10% increase in an athlete’s muscle mass will
also increase the force exerted by those muscles by about
10%. The increases in maximum voluntary force found in the
weight-lifting study of Ref.
were even greater, possibly
because of steroid-induced behavioral effects that led to
more intense effort.

In view of those results, my assump-
tion that the increase in force is proportional to the increase
in muscle mass is conservative. If we assume that the length
and technique of a batter’s swing remain the same, it follows
that the work done by muscles on the bat, and therefore the
kinetic energy of the bat, can also be increased by about 10%
through the use of steroids. If the bat’s mass is constant, the
speed of the bat as it strikes the pitched ball will be roughly
5% higher than without the use of steroids.

Because we are
making rather rough estimates here, it will not make much
difference if the batter uses a slightly heavier or lighter bat.

Determining the effect of this increase in bat speed on the
speed of the batted ball requires a model of the bat-ball col-
lision. Nathan and others have given sophisticated
treatments,

but for balls hit near the bat’s “sweet spot”—
which is the case for most home runs—the results are well
approximated by a simple one-dimensional, partially elastic
collision, with the bat treated as a rigid body:

v= 1+(MCr −m) v bat + (MC R −m) v pitch
(M + m) ( M + m )






where M and m; are the masses of the bat and ball, respec-tively, v bat, and v pitch,
are their speeds just before the collision,
and C R is the coefficient of restitution. For the reasonablevalues
M = 0.96 kg,
m = 0.145 kg,
C R = 0.5,
v pitch =40 m/s, v bat =30 m/s

a 5% increase in bat speed leads to an increase of 4% in the speed of the ball as it leaves the bat. The ratio of ball-speed increase to bat-speed increase changes by 10% or less when the parameters are
varied within realistic ranges. The next ingredient in the analysis is a model for the tra-jectory of the baseball. In addition to gravity, the significant forces on the ball are air resistance drag, and the lift force
due to the ball’s spin, and neither is well understood for a rapidly spinning baseball. In particular, there is disagreement
about whether the drag coefficient drops precipitously with the onset of turbulence in a particular range of speeds. Adair is skeptical about the existence of such a “drag crisis” for baseballs,
but Sawicki, et al., drawing on empirical data
for pitched balls, conclude that there is a pronounced drag
crisis for speeds near 32 m/s (~72 mph). I have done calculations using models with and without a drag crisis

see Fig. 3- (noted in link: (http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/Tobin_AJP_Jan08.pdf) see figure 3....

There are significant differences of detail. For example, the launch angle for maximum range is about 26° for the Sawicki model and about 34° for the Adair model. The Sawicki model also shows lower sensitivity of the home run
rate to the average initial ball speed, because once the ball leaves the bat the speed drops rather quickly into the range

If this equation doesn't strike home, I don't know what else I can do for ye'


Other than to say as I've said a dozen times, the time will come within MLB to recognize some means to not exclude Steroids, yet I doubt HGH, will ever be accepted, its still to risky.

however PED's as said prior, can simply be Amphetamines, Cocaine, Sudafed, Other nasal decongestants using Pseudoephedrine, hell who knows what else....I'm sure that shit at AM/PM counters: 5 hour energy drink should be inclued, how about excess sugar intake, or Monster, or Red Bull drinks too.

This is very interesting for those who did not know many of our HOF'ers admitted to using such PED's, like Aaron, Schmidt, et al....
In his autobiography I Had a Hammer, which was co-written with Lonnie Wheeler and published in 1992, outfielder Hank Aaron wrote that he accepted an amphetamine pill from an unnamed teammate and taken it before a game during the 1968 season, after becoming frustrated about his lack of offensive performance.[10] Aaron described it as "a stupid thing to do", observing that the pill made him feel like he "was having a heart attack".[10]

Former pitcher Tom House, drafted in 1967 and active in MLB from 1971-1978, has admitted to using "steroids they wouldn't give to horses" during his playing career. According to House, the use of performance-enhancing drugs was widespread at that time. He estimates that "six or seven" pitchers on every team were at least experimental users of steroids or human growth hormone, and says that after losses, players would frequently joke that they'd been "out-milligrammed" rather than beaten.

Third baseman Mike Schmidt, an active player from 1972-1989, admitted to Murray Chass in 2006 that he had used amphetamines "a couple [of] times". In his book Clearing the Bases, he said that amphetamines "were widely available in major-league clubhouses" during his playing career, and that "amphetamine use in baseball is both far more common and has been going on a lot longer than steroid abuse".

Relief pitcher Goose Gossage, active from 1972-1994, also admitted to using amphetamines during his playing career, in a 2013 interview with Ken Davidoff. In the same interview, Gossage voiced the opinion that amphetamines are not "a performance-enhancing drug", though he admitted that using them was illegal at the time.

During the Pittsburgh drug trials in 1985,several players testified about the use of amphetamines in baseball. Shortstop Dale Berra admitted that he had used "greenies" while playing for both the Pittsburgh Pirates and the AAA Portland Beavers, and stated that while in Pittsburgh between 1979 and 1984 he had been supplied with the drugs by teammates Bill Madlock and Willie Stargell. Outfielder John Milner testified that while he was playing for the New York Mets, he had seen in the locker of teammate Willie Mays a powerful liquid amphetamine he called the "red juice".

Is no one exempt from some sort of PED use, it appears not....!!! :tiphat:
 
Say what coffee, cigs, and Budweiser are not on this list, I guess the Babe was clean then, with Hot Dogs, Beer and Whisky.........a Mans Man....shit an occassional reefer is banned, wake up MLB, I've never seen how Cannabis is a enhancing drug. Maybe to keep Epileptics at bay, or help one get some ZZZZsss. Otherwise its pure hog-shit....!!! Someone failed to put Martinis and Wild Turkey on this list, ho hum...!


H. Annual Review of Program
Within thirty (30)
days of the conclusion of the World Series, the
Parties will meet with the IPA, the Medical Testing Officer, a
representative from CDT, and the Chairperson of the Expert Panel
regarding potential changes to the Program based on developments
during the previous year. The Parties shall have an obligation to meet
and confer on any recommendations or suggestions offered by the IPA,
Medical Testing Officer, CDT representative, or Chairperson of the
Expert Panel, or offered by either Party, in an effort to agree on the
implementation of those recommendations or suggestions.
2. PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES
All Players shall be prohibited from using, possessing, selling,
facilitating the sale of, distributing, or facilitating the distribution of
any Drug of Abuse, Performance Enhancing Substance, Stimulant
and /or DHEA (collectively referred to as “Prohibited Substances”).
A. Drugs of Abuse
Any and all drugs or substances included on Schedules I and II of
the Code of Federal Regulations’ Schedule of Controlled Substances

(“Schedule I or Schedule II”), as amended from time to time, shall be
considered Drugs of Abuse
covered by the Program; provided,
however, that the drugs and substances defined as Stimulants in Section
2.C below shall be treated as Stimulants rather than as Drugs of Abuse
where expressly indicated in the Program. The following substances
and their analogs are covered by the Program as Drugs of Abuse, their
Schedule classification notwithstanding:
1. Natural Cannabinoids (e.g., THC, Hashish and Marijuana)
2. Synthetic THC and Cannabimimetics (e.g., K2 and Spice)
3. Cocaine
4. LSD
5. Opiates (e.g., Oxycodone, Heroin, Codeine, and Morphine)
6. MDMA
(Ecstasy)
7. GHB
8. Phencyclidine
(PCP)

B. Performance Enhancing Substances
Any and all anabolic androgenic steroids covered by Schedule III
of the Code of Federal Regulations’ Schedule of Controlled Substances
(“Schedule III”), as amended from time to time, and the categories of
hormones and agents with antiestrogenic activity that are set forth in Nos.
67 - 74 below, shall be considered Performance Enhancing Substances
covered by the Program. Anabolic androgenic steroids, hormones, and
agents with antiestrogenic activity, that may not be lawfully obtained or
used in the United States (including, for example, “designer steroids” and
peptide hormones) also shall be considered Performance Enhancing
Substances irrespective of whether they are covered by Schedule III. The
following is a non-exhaustive list of substances that shall be considered
Performance Enhancing Substances covered by the Program:
1. Androstadienedione
2. Androstanediol
3. Androstanedione
4. Androstatrienedione
(AT D)
5. Androstenediol
6. Androstenedione
7. Androst-2-en-17-one
(2-Androstenone, Delta-2)
8. Androstenetrione
(6 -OXO)
9. Bolandiol
10. Bolasterone
11. Boldenone
12. Boldione
13. Calusterone
14. Clenbuterol
15. Clostebol
16. Danazol
17. Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone
18. Desoxy-methyltestosterone
19 .Δ 1-dihydrotestosterone
20. 4-dihydrotestosterone
21. Drostanolone
22. Epi-dihydrotestosterone
23. Epitestosterone
24. Ethylestrenol
25. Fluoxymesterone
26. Formebolone
27. Furazabol
28. 13a-ethyl-17a-hydroxygon-4-en-3-one
29. Gestrinone
30. 4-hydroxytestosterone
31. 4-hydroxy-19-nortestosterone
32. Mestanolone
33. Mesterolone
34. Methandienone
35. Methandriol
36. Methasterone
(Superdrol)
37. Methenolone
38. Methyldienolone
39. Methylnortestosterone
40. Methylstenbolone
41. Methyltestosterone
42. Methyltrienolone
(Metribolone)
43. Mibolerone
44. 17a-methyl-Δ
1-dihydrotestosterone
45. Nandrolone
46. Norandrostenediol
47. Norandrostenedione
48. Norbolethone
49. Norclostebol
50. Norethandrolone
51. Oxabolone
52. Oxandrolone
53. Oxymesterone
54. Oxymetholone
55. Prostanozol
56. Quinbolone
57. Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators
(SARMs)
58. Stanozolol
59. Stenbolone
60. Testosterone
61. Tetrahydrogestrinone
62. Tibolone
63. Trenbolone
64. Zeranol
65. Zilpaterol
66. Any salt, ester or ether of a drug or substance listed above
67. Human Growth Hormone
(hGH), Secretagogues and
Peptides, including Ibutamoren, Growth Hormone
Releasing Peptides
(GHRP), Hexarelin, Ipamorelin,
Alexamorelin, and CJC-1295
68. Insulin-like Growth Factor
(IGF-1), including all
isomers of IGF-1 sometimes referred to as Mechano
Growth Factors
69. Chorionic Gonadotrophin
(hCG) and LuteinizingHormone (LH)
70. Aromatase Inhibitors, including Anastrozole, Letrozole,
Aminoglutethimide, Exemestane, Formestane,
and Testolactone
71. Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators, including
Raloxifen, Tamoxifen, and Toremifen
72. Other Anti-estrogens, including Clomiphene, Cyclofenil,
and Fulvestrant
73. Metabolic Modulators, including Peroxisome Proliferator
Activated Receptor δ
(PPAR δ)
agonists, including
GW 1516, GW 0742, and AICAR
74. Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents, including
Erythropoietin
(EPO)
C. Stimulants
The following substances shall be considered Stimulants
covered by the Program:
1. Adrafinil
2. Amfepramone
(Diethylpropion)
3. Amiphenazole
4. Amphetamine
5. Amphetaminil
6. Armodafinil
7. Benfluorex
8. Benzphetamine
9. Benzylpiperazine
10. Bromantan

Ok, I'm steeping down off of my high horse, and I DOUBT I will engage in this convo, as I've said all that can be said, IMHO....take it from here.....! I'm out....-~!

11. Carphedon
12. Cathine
(Norpseudoephedrine)
13. Clobenzorex
14. Cropropamide
15. Crotetamide
16. Dimethylamphetamine
17. Ephedrine
18. Etamivan
19. Ethylamphetamine
20. Etilefrine
21. Famprofazone
22. Fenbutrazate
23. Fencamfamine
24. Fenethylline
25. Fenfluramine
26. Fenproporex
27. Furfenorex
28. Heptaminol
29. Isometheptene
30. Meclofenoxate
31. Mefenorex
32. Mephentermine
33. Mesocarb
34. Methamphetamine
(Methylamphetamine)
35. Methylenedioxyamphetamine
36. Methylephedrine
37. Methylhexaneamine
(Dimethylamylamine, DMAA)
38. Methylphenidate
39. Modafinil
40. N,alpha-Diethylphenylethylamine
(N,a-DEPEA)
41. N-ethyl-1-phenyl-2-butanamine
42. Nikethamide
43. Norfenefrine
44. Norfenfluramine
45. Octopamine
46. Oxilofrine
(Methylsynephrine)
47. Pemoline
48. Pentetrazol
 
Last edited:
Muscle mass increase estimate is too high. Avg 165 lb male will gain 4lbs of mass lifting heavy. 7lbs with a 7 week roid regimen and no significant lifting program. And the same roid and lifting regimen yields 13lb muscle mass gain. However if the non roid weight program is followed, that group catches up in about 14 weeks.

So now show me how extra muscle mass equals more home runs? And then corrolate that to when baseball players started doing more serious weight training.

You realize yet you're making my argument for me? Silly rabbits, Trix are for kids.
 
A weak mind? I'm not the one that's been unable to answer a simple question so I'll try again, now, take a breath Tom, put your thinking cap on & for the 3rd time why aren't guys like Sosa, McGwire, Bonds Palmeiro etc in the HOF or at least getting a lot more votes.

The answer should be real simple, repeat after me, you ready? here goes.........."Because they cheated". Now that wasn't so hard was it?


Wrong. You can't cheat if there wasn't a rule before 2004. As 59 rightly states, no wayback machines. Were not debating the vote habits of the HOF. You were challenged to show evidence that steroids were solely responsible for all their home runs. You can't.
 
Say what coffee, cigs, and Budweiser are not on this list, I guess the Babe was clean then, with Hot Dogs, Beer and Whisky.........a Mans Man....shit an occassional reefer is banned, wake up MLB, I've never seen how Cannabis is a enhancing drug. Maybe to keep Epileptics at bay, or help one get some ZZZZsss. Otherwise its pure hog-shit....!!! Someone failed to put Martinis and Wild Turkey on this list, ho hum...!


H. Annual Review of Program
Within thirty (30)
days of the conclusion of the World Series, the
Parties will meet with the IPA, the Medical Testing Officer, a
representative from CDT, and the Chairperson of the Expert Panel
regarding potential changes to the Program based on developments
during the previous year. The Parties shall have an obligation to meet
and confer on any recommendations or suggestions offered by the IPA,
Medical Testing Officer, CDT representative, or Chairperson of the
Expert Panel, or offered by either Party, in an effort to agree on the
implementation of those recommendations or suggestions.
2. PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES
All Players shall be prohibited from using, possessing, selling,
facilitating the sale of, distributing, or facilitating the distribution of
any Drug of Abuse, Performance Enhancing Substance, Stimulant
and /or DHEA (collectively referred to as “Prohibited Substances”).
A. Drugs of Abuse
Any and all drugs or substances included on Schedules I and II of
the Code of Federal Regulations’ Schedule of Controlled Substances

(“Schedule I or Schedule II”), as amended from time to time, shall be
considered Drugs of Abuse
covered by the Program; provided,
however, that the drugs and substances defined as Stimulants in Section
2.C below shall be treated as Stimulants rather than as Drugs of Abuse
where expressly indicated in the Program. The following substances
and their analogs are covered by the Program as Drugs of Abuse, their
Schedule classification notwithstanding:
1. Natural Cannabinoids (e.g., THC, Hashish and Marijuana)
2. Synthetic THC and Cannabimimetics (e.g., K2 and Spice)
3. Cocaine
4. LSD
5. Opiates (e.g., Oxycodone, Heroin, Codeine, and Morphine)
6. MDMA
(Ecstasy)
7. GHB
8. Phencyclidine
(PCP)

B. Performance Enhancing Substances
Any and all anabolic androgenic steroids covered by Schedule III
of the Code of Federal Regulations’ Schedule of Controlled Substances
(“Schedule III”), as amended from time to time, and the categories of
hormones and agents with antiestrogenic activity that are set forth in Nos.
67 - 74 below, shall be considered Performance Enhancing Substances
covered by the Program. Anabolic androgenic steroids, hormones, and
agents with antiestrogenic activity, that may not be lawfully obtained or
used in the United States (including, for example, “designer steroids” and
peptide hormones) also shall be considered Performance Enhancing
Substances irrespective of whether they are covered by Schedule III. The
following is a non-exhaustive list of substances that shall be considered
Performance Enhancing Substances covered by the Program:
1. Androstadienedione
2. Androstanediol
3. Androstanedione
4. Androstatrienedione
(AT D)
5. Androstenediol
6. Androstenedione
7. Androst-2-en-17-one
(2-Androstenone, Delta-2)
8. Androstenetrione
(6 -OXO)
9. Bolandiol
10. Bolasterone
11. Boldenone
12. Boldione
13. Calusterone
14. Clenbuterol
15. Clostebol
16. Danazol
17. Dehydrochloromethyltestosterone
18. Desoxy-methyltestosterone
19 .Δ 1-dihydrotestosterone
20. 4-dihydrotestosterone
21. Drostanolone
22. Epi-dihydrotestosterone
23. Epitestosterone
24. Ethylestrenol
25. Fluoxymesterone
26. Formebolone
27. Furazabol
28. 13a-ethyl-17a-hydroxygon-4-en-3-one
29. Gestrinone
30. 4-hydroxytestosterone
31. 4-hydroxy-19-nortestosterone
32. Mestanolone
33. Mesterolone
34. Methandienone
35. Methandriol
36. Methasterone
(Superdrol)
37. Methenolone
38. Methyldienolone
39. Methylnortestosterone
40. Methylstenbolone
41. Methyltestosterone
42. Methyltrienolone
(Metribolone)
43. Mibolerone
44. 17a-methyl-Δ
1-dihydrotestosterone
45. Nandrolone
46. Norandrostenediol
47. Norandrostenedione
48. Norbolethone
49. Norclostebol
50. Norethandrolone
51. Oxabolone
52. Oxandrolone
53. Oxymesterone
54. Oxymetholone
55. Prostanozol
56. Quinbolone
57. Selective Androgen Receptor Modulators
(SARMs)
58. Stanozolol
59. Stenbolone
60. Testosterone
61. Tetrahydrogestrinone
62. Tibolone
63. Trenbolone
64. Zeranol
65. Zilpaterol
66. Any salt, ester or ether of a drug or substance listed above
67. Human Growth Hormone
(hGH), Secretagogues and
Peptides, including Ibutamoren, Growth Hormone
Releasing Peptides
(GHRP), Hexarelin, Ipamorelin,
Alexamorelin, and CJC-1295
68. Insulin-like Growth Factor
(IGF-1), including all
isomers of IGF-1 sometimes referred to as Mechano
Growth Factors
69. Chorionic Gonadotrophin
(hCG) and LuteinizingHormone (LH)
70. Aromatase Inhibitors, including Anastrozole, Letrozole,
Aminoglutethimide, Exemestane, Formestane,
and Testolactone
71. Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators, including
Raloxifen, Tamoxifen, and Toremifen
72. Other Anti-estrogens, including Clomiphene, Cyclofenil,
and Fulvestrant
73. Metabolic Modulators, including Peroxisome Proliferator
Activated Receptor δ
(PPAR δ)
agonists, including
GW 1516, GW 0742, and AICAR
74. Erythropoiesis-Stimulating Agents, including
Erythropoietin
(EPO)
C. Stimulants
The following substances shall be considered Stimulants
covered by the Program:
1. Adrafinil
2. Amfepramone
(Diethylpropion)
3. Amiphenazole
4. Amphetamine
5. Amphetaminil
6. Armodafinil
7. Benfluorex
8. Benzphetamine
9. Benzylpiperazine
10. Bromantan

Ok, I'm steeping down off of my high horse, and I DOUBT I will engage in this convo, as I've said all that can be said, IMHO....take it from here.....! I'm out....-~!

11. Carphedon
12. Cathine
(Norpseudoephedrine)
13. Clobenzorex
14. Cropropamide
15. Crotetamide
16. Dimethylamphetamine
17. Ephedrine
18. Etamivan
19. Ethylamphetamine
20. Etilefrine
21. Famprofazone
22. Fenbutrazate
23. Fencamfamine
24. Fenethylline
25. Fenfluramine
26. Fenproporex
27. Furfenorex
28. Heptaminol
29. Isometheptene
30. Meclofenoxate
31. Mefenorex
32. Mephentermine
33. Mesocarb
34. Methamphetamine
(Methylamphetamine)
35. Methylenedioxyamphetamine
36. Methylephedrine
37. Methylhexaneamine
(Dimethylamylamine, DMAA)
38. Methylphenidate
39. Modafinil
40. N,alpha-Diethylphenylethylamine
(N,a-DEPEA)
41. N-ethyl-1-phenyl-2-butanamine
42. Nikethamide
43. Norfenefrine
44. Norfenfluramine
45. Octopamine
46. Oxilofrine
(Methylsynephrine)
47. Pemoline
48. Pentetrazol

Hey Rob try researching how long those substances have been around? That's the steroid era...started in the 50s. Yes, your childhood hero's were likely roiders too by your logic. The history of D-Bol and sports is a long sordid tale.
 
Muscle mass increase estimate is too high. Avg 165 lb male will gain 4lbs of mass lifting heavy. 7lbs with a 7 week roid regimen and no significant lifting program. And the same roid and lifting regimen yields 13lb muscle mass gain. However if the non roid weight program is followed, that group catches up in about 14 weeks. So now show me how extra muscle mass equals more home runs? And then corrolate that to when baseball players started doing more serious weight training.

You realize yet you're making my argument for me? Silly rabbits, Trix are for kids.



Yes, Of course I know I'm helping to make your case. After all we both know, to debate any case, one must consider both sides of said debate fairly....!

Keep in mind, my point is simply I do believe and have seen the scientific data to prove more HR's are hit on PEDS. Keep in mind as well, I am a not a opponent of MLB allowing some PED's to be un-banned, as some are quit detrimental to a ballplayers post surgical healing. I see no probs with that much. MLB has done the complete opposite, like over reacting by Mitchell catching Selig with his pants down.....

Some restrictions need to be relaxed IMO. I began Tom, by showing additional data to support your Opinion, am I right thus far?

Yet, I can't move off of my ancient stone, to say HGH knowing used for but one purpose to enhance play is just wrong.

Yet, there are other extremists, who say don't ban any PED's, legalize them so the playing field is leveled, and PED's can be controlled. Now I wouldn't go that far, as some Politicians believe as much for legalizing Heroin. Which is just insane IMO.

A good debate includes both sides of the argument or point, and does not exclude either. Only by using this method, can one get to the truth.
I obviously left this post to take Dad to the Hospital, and left UN-finished business....

Oh, and I would never add cannabis to the equation as a PED. I can't foresee a bunch of stoners trying to play baseball, that would be more hilarious than creating a Team in Haight Ashbury, trying to catch butterflies not baseballs, or phantom hallucinations, ie, I see 6 baseballs coming at me, which one should i catch? or Cannabis club players, who fall asleep b/t innings. I guess that would be like hiring a group of Lepers to Judge a Beauty contest? eh?

I'm just trying to be fair, and were close on most of this debate, its just my 1 opinion is the one stance I can't move off of,...."forgive me father for I have sinned, its been 45 years since my last confession",.....!!! :lol: :smile: :tiphat:

Take it from here Tom,:drumroll::drumroll:
 
Hey Rob try researching how long those substances have been around? That's the steroid era...started in the 50s. Yes, your childhood hero's were likely roiders too by your logic. The history of D-Bol and sports is a long sordid tale.

Yep, I did research these compounds, and your right most of them were created in as you said, the 50s. Some as far back as post WWII. One reason I never bought the fact Bonds said he began taking roids when he did. I saw him in Chavez Ravine in 93, when he had 7 RBI's, a Grand Slam, (with Williams and Clark on base prior less 1 at bat, which was a 2nd HR, a solo shot).. Even back then, we were sitting behind home plate, and I swear I had a feeling of a greater presence in Bonds like playing against Little Leaguers, could it of been the Testosterone, not likely, yet I'm not going to rule it out, I did feel something that day, even if it was intuitive. Thus I do in fact believe Bonds was using Roids in the very early 90s, despite his claim he wasn't. Shit lets not forget the early 80s of Alzado, and the other aesthetes from the 50s-60s-70s to present...IMHO, roids have been used a lot longer than anyone will admit.,..no one is safe....from scrutiny, but lets lighten up MLB by-laws, to some degrees, as aforementioned.
 
yet my claim is heresay, conjecture, and un-founded in fact, rather assumptive to say the least...
 
PS- I never was a trix or Fruit Loops fan, not even cocoa puffs or crispies, I was more a Shredded Wheat fan, or hot cereal esp., Cracked Wheat.....LOL....I didn't and still don't like food color in my food....! :lol:
 
I'm more than happy to see the PED side of the argument. But I have yet to see any valid evidence. In fact general weight training and laser eye surgery have more compelling impact, yet those also don't have sufficient data Rob. This is a multivariant problem and it drives me crazy when folks sayboh its all because of steroids. Sorry that's just not right.

So, decade from now someone finally does the experiments and shows that good weight training alone and exceptional eyesight alone lead to better power numbers, PEDs have a null effect as the same results occur under natural conditions. So then where we are is to have stigmatized an entire generation of ballplayers because weak minds jumped to a false conclusion. Another witch hunt with no real witches.
 
Wrong. You can't cheat if there wasn't a rule before 2004. As 59 rightly states, no wayback machines. Were not debating the vote habits of the HOF. You were challenged to show evidence that steroids were solely responsible for all their home runs. You can't.


You really can't do it can you? For the 4th time, WHY aren't guys like Sosa, Palmeriero. McGwire , And Bonds on the HOF? if the large HR totals are the course foe anything other then PEDS?
 
I'm more than happy to see the PED side of the argument. But I have yet to see any valid evidence. In fact general weight training and laser eye surgery have more compelling impact, yet those also don't have sufficient data Rob. This is a multivariant problem and it drives me crazy when folks sayboh its all because of steroids. Sorry that's just not right.

So, decade from now someone finally does the experiments and shows that good weight training alone and exceptional eyesight alone lead to better power numbers, PEDs have a null effect as the same results occur under natural conditions. So then where we are is to have stigmatized an entire generation of ballplayers because weak minds jumped to a false conclusion. Another witch hunt with no real witches.

I think eyesight is an overlooked quality trait, which allows hitters to own pitchers.

I had eyesight, where I could easily see at 20 feet what the normal person could see at 10 feet. In American Legion ball, I had no problem picking up on the curve, movement, and or speed of the ball regardless of whether I was facing a lefty or righty. Being a switch hitter, I often did not turn around to bat RH off of a southpaw, often I would hit LH'd off of a southpaw, why? I had as good a B'avg off of any side of the plate, and had more deep line drive power as a LH hitter, yet could place hit better RH'd....zippity doo dah....!!! :smile:

I led that league with a .454 B'avg, led it in Walks, HBP, and had an unbelievable .897 OBP....

I can honestly testify good eyesight above the norm is more of an enhancement IMO than any PED. My little brother had the same eyesight, and played in the same League Matt Williams did at Bishop H.S. A mile high elevation, and bro-hit two monster shots clean out of the park, while Williams only hit track High fly outs.....! Vision is under-rated IMO....
 
Wrong. You can't cheat if there wasn't a rule before 2004. As 59 rightly states, no wayback machines. Were not debating the vote habits of the HOF. You were challenged to show evidence that steroids were solely responsible for all their home runs. You can't.



I never said that PEDs were the only reason for the increase in HRs. I attribute it to several reasons with PEDs being the main reason. And for the 5th time, In your honest opinion why aren't guys like McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa & others in the HOF?
 
I never said that PEDs were the only reason for the increase in HRs. I attribute it to several reasons with PEDs being the main reason. And for the 5th time, In your honest opinion why aren't guys like McGwire, Bonds, Palmeiro, Sosa & others in the HOF?

I'd say if it weren't for Cheating and yes using Anabolic Steroids, which they did, then they should be banned for Life, for perjury testimony before Congress and a Grand Jury.

If you or I lied before Congress, perjuring ourselves, we be in the dungeon til the end of time...:smile: gotta go to LA in a few mins, CYA....!
 



Tom I applaud you seriously, that's a great find & one of the best articles I've read on the subject matter. And it has ALWAYS been my contention that PEDs of any kind do not affect hand / eye coordination. You still have to be able to hit the damn ball. With that said, yes its true that PEDs were not banned (illegal) prior to (I believe) 2004 & also true that several factors can go into why there was such an increase in the HR. But I as do the majority strongly believe that PEDs were a major cause for the increase. I mean players have failed drug tests & even admitted to using. These are not speculations they are indeed facts.

Granted one could argue that back in the day players popped greenies like they were M&Ms & god knows what else was taken to assist there game. Its a slippery slope my friend. I think we've pretty much beaten this topic to death so I'm done. My apologies if My frustration offended you at all. Have a good one.
 
The most overlooked, underrated, most effective "peds".. good old fashion "Greenies"!
Nothing like a little pill (or 3) to help put pep in your step.

I believe it does wonders for the led-leg syndrome from playing day after day when you're approaching your mid-late 30s. lmao


Bouncy bouncy bouncy............
 
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