Philosophical question?

[PtldPlatypus]

How can we justify morality unless we are God?

I think this is the crucial point here.

Attempting to view this from a non-religious viewpoint (very difficult for me, I must admit), I think most approach the notion of "morality" based on a measurement of "harm". That is, actions that cause no harm to another are by definition acceptable, and actions that cause harm to another are questionable at best. Those that do require harm to another are then evaluated in similar terms, but weighing the harm caused against the harm prevented.

Those decreeing others' actions to be immoral will generally cite the harm caused (ie, Iraq war & Iraqi citizens). Those justifying a questionable action will attempt to defend its morality by either disputing the claim of harm caused or by claiming harm prevented. Here is where the subjectivity of perspective enters in, since it deals with assumptions and hypotheticals. In the case of capital punishment, if the termination of the criminal's life prevents the termination of other lives, many would consider it "moral". Many others would suggest that even that is not a sufficient justification. Who is right? It's all a matter of perspective.

Generally, societal morality will be subjective and fluid because it is determined by the values and perspectives of the majority. So, it is not based upon a belief in oneself as a "god" so much as a representative of the majority, or a belief that the majority perspective is flawed in some significant fashion.

 

[magnifier661]

I think this is the crucial point here.

Attempting to view this from a non-religious viewpoint (very difficult for me, I must admit), I think most approach the notion of "morality" based on a measurement of "harm". That is, actions that cause no harm to another are by definition acceptable, and actions that cause harm to another are questionable at best. Those that do require harm to another are then evaluated in similar terms, but weighing the harm caused against the harm prevented.

Those decreeing others' actions to be immoral will generally cite the harm caused (ie, Iraq war & Iraqi citizens). Those justifying a questionable action will attempt to defend its morality by either disputing the claim of harm caused or by claiming harm prevented. Here is where the subjectivity of perspective enters in, since it deals with assumptions and hypotheticals.

Generally, societal morality will be subjective and fluid because it is determined by the values and perspectives of the majority. So, it is not based upon a belief in oneself as a "god" so much as a representative of the majority, or a belief that the majority perspective is flawed in some significant fashion.

I sure hope we make it to the finals so I can sit and chat with you. I just like your style. I really think I can learn a lot from talking with you one on one.

 

[TripTango]

Okay so now my point. Do the "lawmakers" of the United States feel they are Gods? Do other political leaders around the world believe they are Gods? How can we justify morality unless we are God? And how in the hell did you smart individuals actually fall for this catch-22?

You are VERY into this idea that moral rules cannot be made or followed unless created by a god, but this is exactly the point where we differ. Why CAN'T we humans justify morality? Why can't we say "this is how we prefer to live as a society, and those who don't follow the rules are not welcome"? You can't just say "without God there is no reason to be good" and leave it at that. I can think of dozens of reasons not to kill, murder, steal, or maim folks, even without a god telling me it's wrong. Are you unable to do so?

 

[TripTango]

So here's a related question for the biblical-morality folks. If your wife took your son one morning and said that God had commanded her to kill him, what would you do?

 

[Eastoff]

PltdPlatypus has it right for the most part. I would also specify there is an importance to defend those that are at a disadvantage because of how they are born. Everyone should have an equal chance at the "American Dream" without being infringed upon along the way.

 

[Eastoff]

You are VERY into this idea that moral rules cannot be made or followed unless created by a god, but this is exactly the point where we differ. Why CAN'T we humans justify morality? Why can't we say "this is how we prefer to live as a society, and those who don't follow the rules are not welcome"? You can't just say "without God there is no reason to be good" and leave it at that. I can think of dozens of reasons not to kill, murder, steal, or maim folks, even without a god telling me it's wrong. Are you unable to do so?

this. Nobody prospers in a hedonistic anarchy.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

So here's a related question for the biblical-morality folks. If your wife took your son one morning and said that God had commanded her to kill him, what would you do?

I operate under the presupposition that scripture is inerrant, and humans are not. So I would tell her that any perceived spiritual prompting which is in clear opposition to the canon of scripture is not to be submitted to and is most likely either misinterpreted or an attempted deception by the evil one.

 

[magnifier661]

So here's a related question for the biblical-morality folks. If your wife took your son one morning and said that God had commanded her to kill him, what would you do?

Well according to my belief; God has already spoken through his word and the life of the "Old Testament" is over and we, and our Faith have been reborn the day that Jesus died and risen on the third day. And the only time we see Jesus again on Earth, will be during "The Great Tribulation". So I think I'm pretty safe that won't happen.

 

[magnifier661]

You are VERY into this idea that moral rules cannot be made or followed unless created by a god, but this is exactly the point where we differ. Why CAN'T we humans justify morality? Why can't we say "this is how we prefer to live as a society, and those who don't follow the rules are not welcome"? You can't just say "without God there is no reason to be good" and leave it at that. I can think of dozens of reasons not to kill, murder, steal, or maim folks, even without a god telling me it's wrong. Are you unable to do so?

This isn't my idea Trip. This was quoted from many of the great philosophers, outside of "Christianity". Hell Christianity wasn't in existence when many of these philosophies were made. And you, I and some others all agreed with this. Why the change after I brought up this point?

 

[TripTango]

This isn't my idea Trip. This was quoted from many of the great philosophers, outside of "Christianity". Hell Christianity wasn't in existence when many of these philosophies were made. And you, I and some others all agreed with this. Why the change after I brought up this point?

What change? I only just entered this particular discussion. I don't recall agreeing to anything! Perhaps you have me confused with some OTHER misguided atheist?

And I'm happy to consider the arguments of great thinkers, but you can't just wave your hands and tell me how pretty they are -- bring them out into the light so we can discuss them in plain view!

I'm familiar with the "nothing can be morally wrong without a higher power" argument -- I just don't find it convincing. Hypothetically, if there had been a race of humans who were all sadists and murderers, they would have died out completely after MAYBE a few generations. Even a group that was totally selfish and ignored there fellows completely would be easily outcompeted by groups that wanted to help each other and treat each other well. Therefore it strikes me as completely reasonable (NECESSARY, even) that a species as successful as ours should have a predisposition towards wanting to help others, rather than randomly harm them.

 

[MadeFromDust]

This guy is way more articulate than me and pretty much sums up my thoughts on morality later in this video:

[video=youtube;nRD-ybmTIQg]

Let's just be real here, atheists can't justify morality, or much of anything for that matter.

 

[crowTrobot]

Let's just be real here, atheists can't justify morality, or much of anything for that matter.

if you need god to tell you murder is wrong that just makes you a moron.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

all morals can easily change given different circumstances

a god fearing soldier will still stick a knife in his enemies throat, or drop a bomb on a town full of women and children.... and everyone in the world tells lies to spare peoples feelings

humans have justified killing/lying/etc for as long as they have felt bad about it, before that, they didnt have to

 

[TripTango]

Let's just be real here, atheists can't justify morality, or much of anything for that matter.

On the flip side, religious zealots are capable of using their god to justify whatever the hell they want. I'll take the side with more thoughtfulness and less self-righteousness, thank you very much.

 

[MadeFromDust]

On the flip side, religious zealots are capable of using their god to justify whatever the hell they want. I'll take the side with more thoughtfulness and less self-righteousness, thank you very much.

Not really, because God’s laws are set in stone (literally). If someone bends or twists these laws for their own benefit they are still breaking them. “Religion” has nothing to do with God or the existence of God. Saying you disbelieve in God because of “religious zealots” is akin to me saying I don’t believe in atheists because I disbelieve in atheism. It’s not rational. Denying a Creator goes against, science, reason and logic. But to each their own.

I’m currently reading this book defending the Christian faith and theism in general. If you’re open to truth I suggest giving it a read. If you don’t at least walk away second guessing the naturalist worldview then I’d say you’re fooling yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Eno...5615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326994221&sr=8-1

 

[porkchopexpress]

Not really, because God’s laws are set in stone (literally). If someone bends or twists these laws for their own benefit they are still breaking them. “Religion” has nothing to do with God or the existence of God. Saying you disbelieve in God because of “religious zealots” is akin to me saying I don’t believe in atheists because I disbelieve in atheism. It’s not rational. Denying a Creator goes against, science, reason and logic. But to each their own.

I’m currently reading this book defending the Christian faith and theism in general. If you’re open to truth I suggest giving it a read. If you don’t at least walk away second guessing the naturalist worldview then I’d say you’re fooling yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/Dont-Have-Eno...5615/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326994221&sr=8-1

Do you really think this is the best way to try and convince someone of your beliefs?

 

[MadeFromDust]

Do you really think this is the best way to try and convince someone of your beliefs?

Hey, compared to most of the atheists I've debated over the years this is actually quite tame. And free of name calling! But really, this book gives some of the strongest arguments for theism I've seen thus far. I highly recommend it if you're searching for truth.

 

[RR7]

denying a creator goes against science and logic? huh. ok.

Where are these laws that are literally set in stone? And why is it that many seem to call on either the old or new testament to fit their argument, while going against one or another if it doesn't fit. So we no longer stone people, because of the new, but gays are still bad because of the old and such. Seems convenient, I guess.

 

[porkchopexpress]

Hey, compared to most of the atheists I've debated over the years this is actually quite tame. And free of name calling! But really, this book gives some of the strongest arguments for theism I've seen thus far. I highly recommend it if you're searching for truth.

Given your argument style in this thread ("it says so in the bible", "god says so" or "it's not in the bible, so that hypothetical isn't possible"), how is it possible to debate anyone and expect any results. You believe in god and the bible, and I'm fine with that, but if you want to have a debate with an atheist (or anyone), why don't you get into WHY the bible states what it does, or WHY god says what he does, rather than just "the bible says X"? You might actually get somewhere.

 

[ABM]

if you need god to tell you murder is wrong that just makes you a moron.

There's a stark difference between murder and justice, though. Who am I to tell God that wiping out those people groups wasn't justified? This gets back to the His ways are far above my ways thingy. Let's just say I'll trust His judgement on the matters.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Given your argument style in this thread ("it says so in the bible", "god says so" or "it's not in the bible, so that hypothetical isn't possible"), how is it possible to debate anyone and expect any results. You believe in god and the bible, and I'm fine with that, but if you want to have a debate with an atheist (or anyone), why don't you get into WHY the bible states what it does, or WHY god says what he does, rather than just "the bible says X"? You might actually get somewhere.

Where have I said anywhere in these threads I’ve posted in the things you’ve claimed? I don’t recall once saying “Cuz the Bible says so!”. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. And I believe the evidence points to a Biblical worldview. In past threads I’ve given reasons why I believe this to be true. When people have disagreed I haven’t ever said “well God says so, so you’re wrong!”. I try to reason, even though by my own admission I can be quite biased. But that’s only because I’m quite literally 100% sure that the Gospel of the Lord Jesus is true, not only through reason and evidence but through personal experience and testimony.

I wasn’t only a believer either. I asked Jesus into my heart at a young age but I would describe my life as anything resembling a Christian lifestyle. I consider myself a wretched sinner in need of a savior, as does the rest of humanity.

 

[MadeFromDust]

denying a creator goes against science and logic? huh. ok.

Where are these laws that are literally set in stone? And why is it that many seem to call on either the old or new testament to fit their argument, while going against one or another if it doesn't fit. So we no longer stone people, because of the new, but gays are still bad because of the old and such. Seems convenient, I guess.

The laws I was referring to are the 10 commandments God gave to Moses on Mount Sinai. Some ignorant Christians claim gay people are bad, nowhere does God claim they are bad (no more than anyone else) or that He "hates ***s". God hates sin, not the sinner. God loves homosexuals just as much as He loves anyone else. You may ask why people are born gay, well I say it's the result of a broken, sinful world. People don't choose to be born blind, or crippled or handicapped either. You have to work with the cards given to you. God has a plan of salvation for everyone, whether or not you choose to be a part of that plan is up to you.

 

[ABM]

The laws I was referring to are the 10 commandments God gave to Moses on Mount Sinai. Some ignorant Christians claim gay people are bad, nowhere does God claim they are bad (no more than anyone else) or that He "hates ***s". God hates sin, not the sinner. God loves homosexuals just as much as He loves anyone else. You may ask why people are born gay, well I say it's the result of a broken, sinful world. People don't choose to be born blind, or crippled or handicapped either. You have to work with the cards given to you. God has a plan of salvation for everyone, whether or not you choose to be a part of that plan is up to you.

Love that response. Repped!

 

[MadeFromDust]

Love that response. Repped!

Why thank you

 

[RR7]

So if those are the laws to follow, the only laws, set in stone, why do many religious people lean on the bible to say gays can not be married? I don't see that one in the 10 commandments anywhere.

 

[porkchopexpress]

Where have I said anywhere in these threads I’ve posted in the things you’ve claimed? I don’t recall once saying “Cuz the Bible says so!”. I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God. And I believe the evidence points to a Biblical worldview. In past threads I’ve given reasons why I believe this to be true. When people have disagreed I haven’t ever said “well God says so, so you’re wrong!”. I try to reason, even though by my own admission I can be quite biased. But that’s only because I’m quite literally 100% sure that the Gospel of the Lord Jesus is true, not only through reason and evidence but through personal experience and testimony.

I wasn’t only a believer either. I asked Jesus into my heart at a young age but I would describe my life as anything resembling a Christian lifestyle. I consider myself a wretched sinner in need of a savior, as does the rest of humanity.

My bad on that one. I was Mixing people up from yesterday. Looking back, it was someone else's response to a hypothetical.

 

[ABM]

So if those are the laws to follow, the only laws, set in stone, why do many religious people lean on the bible to say gays can not be married? I don't see that one in the 10 commandments anywhere.

With the advent of Jesus, God gave us the New Testament, which effectively transcends the old Law. One man + one woman = marriage in God's eyes.

 

[crowTrobot]

There's a stark difference between murder and justice, though. Who am I to tell God that wiping out those people groups wasn't justified? This gets back to the His ways are far above my ways thingy. Let's just say I'll trust His judgement on the matters.

you must have missed what i was responding to. i was pointing out that an intelligent person shouldn't need to refer to the bible to know if they should go around murdering people or not. they should be able to figure that out using their own common sense.

in actuality christians form most of their moral views (those not involving sex anyway) the same way atheists do.

 

[MadeFromDust]

So if those are the laws to follow, the only laws, set in stone, why do many religious people lean on the bible to say gays can not be married? I don't see that one in the 10 commandments anywhere.

They are the only laws in the sense that every other law can be attributed to them. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" can be tied in to not having sexual relations with the same gender. If God were to give us every detail on the stone tablets they would be pretty exhaustive. But the Bible gives us everything we need to know to uphold the law.

And Jesus came to show us that we can't live up to the law or God's holy standards. After all if you break one law, you've broken them all. Jesus atoned for the sins of the world by become sin for us and dying to wash us clean of those sins. After all, the penalty of sin is death. Jesus literally died for our sins and then rose again and defeated death to give us the same glory that He has received from God the Father. That's why Gospel literally means "good news". There are hundreds of prophecies in the OT regarding the coming of Jesus and how He would redeem mankind.

 

[MadeFromDust]

My bad on that one. I was Mixing people up from yesterday. Looking back, it was someone else's response to a hypothetical.

All good brother