Philosophical question? (3 Viewers)

[magnifier661]

You are fixated on "scientific proof," which literally is a nonsensical term. Science makes no assertion that it's latest theories are final and conclusive.

However, science does tell me that if put a gallon of gas in my car, it will run out before I go 100 miles. I have zero expectations that if I don't put any gas in my car, I will make it past 100 miles. No matter how much I believe in God, he's not magically making my car run on nothing.

Are you implying that Christians believe you can magically drive without gas?

 

[magnifier661]

Exactly how are we to know (1), though? If I know there is one red marble and 10 billion blue marbles in a bag, I know that it's fantastically unlikely that I will get the red marble. But what do we know about the possibilities of other universes? We're not in a position to know the probabilities. Also: if we think of time sort of Newtonian-ly, then there could've been an infinity of other universes before this one. And the possibility of getting even the most unlikely of universes in an infinite time is 100%. That's infinity for you!

Now, 3 assumes that if the universe didn't arise by chance then it must've arisen by the hand of [insert name of preferred deity here]. But if we're allowing evolution in a biological context (as most proponents of the fine tuning argument have conceded) then why not a variant of it in cosmology? Couldn't some kind of evolutionary procedure have produced our universe? I don't see that it's any less incredible than your Giant Ghost Man hypothesis.

Cool at least you agree that evolution maybe wrong.

 

[Denny Crane]

That's all good and well. By I stand by my final point. When science tries to explain things like why we're here and what the meaning of life is, it fails. There will never be a point in history where we will know that without conclusively unless we dust off our Bibles.

It may not answer those questions, but it does demonstrate the earth is 4.5 billion years old, the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, that there is matter and energy, etc. and that there is no design to the universe (no two of anything are exactly the same).

So which creation myth do you believe: rested on the 7th day or garden of Eden?

 

[Denny Crane]

Are you implying that Christians believe you can magically drive without gas?

They can't drive without science. ;-)

 

[MadeFromDust]

Ah, the "fine tuning" argument. That's one of the more recent ones, true enough. Of course, as you already said, it assumes that there's only one universe which is why the multiverse idea is a threat to it. It's also a good sign that theists have given up on the ones that they used to use against evolution, as this one is about physics, not biology, and sort of relies on the idea that the universe is millions and millions of years old and not just 4,000 odd. (So it's hard to be a Bible literalist and believe in that one.)
So, the basic idea is that
(1) it's fantastically unlikely that things should have been this way by chance, and
(2) therefore it wasn't by chance, and
(3) the only other way it could have been is if there was a designer God, who by coincidence is exactly the same one mentioned in a set of ancient Hebrew texts and not that guy Oden or Allah or any of those other fakers oh no.

Exactly how are we to know (1), though? If I know there is one red marble and 10 billion blue marbles in a bag, I know that it's fantastically unlikely that I will get the red marble. But what do we know about the possibilities of other universes? We're not in a position to know the probabilities. Also: if we think of time sort of Newtonian-ly, then there could've been an infinity of other universes before this one. And the possibility of getting even the most unlikely of universes in an infinite time is 100%. That's infinity for you!

Now, 3 assumes that if the universe didn't arise by chance then it must've arisen by the hand of [insert name of preferred deity here]. But if we're allowing evolution in a biological context (as most proponents of the fine tuning argument have conceded) then why not a variant of it in cosmology? Couldn't some kind of evolutionary procedure have produced our universe? I don't see that it's any less incredible than your Giant Ghost Man hypothesis.

Where is the proof that these other universes exist? Then we're left with the same questions we have now, only on a bigger scale. I don't see how a multiverse theory does anything to rectify these problems.

Finally, as Hume pointed out, any "designer" hypothesis works like this: a certain thing is said to exhibit amazing complexity and thus to require explanation other than chance. Thus, a designer complex enough to have come up with an idea of the complex entity in its head, and thus far more complex than the thing it purports to explain is invoked. But clearly there is now an even greater puzzle to be solved: where did the designer come from? If the proponent of the design argument thinks that that complexity doesn't need explaining, then why did the first kind?

God is a Spirit, or an immaterial, non-physical being. I wouldn't consider that overly complex. Don't confuse God's complex ideas with God's complexity Himself. There has to be an uncaused first cause, because if an infinite regress were possible the universe would have burned out an infinitely long time ago. Something has to be eternal, unless you want to explain how something (like the entire universe) can literally come from nothing. Another assumption in which there is not a shred of evidence for and I'd argue would take more faith to believe in than a designer. So what makes more sense to you? Personally I think God makes loads of more sense than the alternative, not just based on reason and logic, but based on the fact the He's revealed Himself to mankind throughout the course of history. We are without excuse.

 

[MadeFromDust]

It may not answer those questions, but it does demonstrate the earth is 4.5 billion years old, the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, that there is matter and energy, etc. and that there is no design to the universe (no two of anything are exactly the same).

So which creation myth do you believe: rested on the 7th day or garden of Eden?

I don't believe either are a myth, I believe they are both are our reality. I believe a spontaneous, causeless, sourceless, purposeless, meaningless existence sounds more like a myth to me. Put your faith in carbon-14 dating, I'll put my faith in God.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

LMAO! Once again, you haven't read my philosophy. Are you wanting to do some mocking game or something? Cause it really doesn't look like you are truly reading what I just posted.

I wish people wouldn't use the word "philosophy" that way. Please stick with "set of beliefs" in future. But here's what you said:

Let me get my philosophy on "Homosexuality" or "Adultery" or "Disobedience" or any other sin for that matter.
Your body has two components 1.) The Holy Spirit: Your spirit and 2.) Flesh: The need for sin.

Wait a minute: "The Holy Spirit" and "my spirit" are one and the same? I thought THS was part of God? Are you saying that I'm a bit of God? Pantheism! You old Spinozist, you.

They are in constant battle with each other because one is striving to be one with God, while the other is trying hard to be away from God. It's a scale that can't be equal.

Why are they in constant battle? Presumably God set this up. It sounds like a pretty fucking stupid system. Couldn't he have made them a bit more compatible?

The farther you are from God, the closer you are to sin. The closer you are to God, the farther you are from sin.

You know, are you sure you're not a Jedi-ist? This sounds an awful lot like the Sides of the Force. Or you could be a Manichean.

All of this has nothing to do with getting into Heaven.

Of course not.

This is just about you and your relationship with God. Only salvation through the blood of Jesus Christ gets you into Heaven. <--- My philosophy

Presumably you're talking metaphorically. By the way, since you go on rather a lot about Jesus's blood, what are you views on Transubstantiation?

There can be a homosexual Christian and there can be a Lying bastard Christian that both get into Heaven as long as they are saved.

Seems a bit unfair. By the way, is Gandhi in Heaven or Hell on your particular "philosophy"?

But, I will tell you that when I get more "on fire" with God; the more guilty I have of my sin. Does it mean I don't sin? Absolutely not! I sin everyday, and maybe more than most in here.

All this talk of blood and fire makes me want to watch The Wicker Man again.

So if I wasn't clear before, hopefully that clears things up now.

Um - let's put it this way: you already know how to speak in tongues.

 

[magnifier661]

It may not answer those questions, but it does demonstrate the earth is 4.5 billion years old, the universe began 13.7 billion years ago, that there is matter and energy, etc. and that there is no design to the universe (no two of anything are exactly the same).

So which creation myth do you believe: rested on the 7th day or garden of Eden?

Well what if a being can defy physics or other dimensions? Is it possible? Can it be done?

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't believe either are a myth, I believe they are both are our reality. I believe a spontaneous, causeless, sourceless, purposeless, meaningless existence sounds more like a myth to me. Put your faith in carbon-14 dating, I'll put my faith in God.

So was the universe created twice? What happened in between, and how was the first universe destroyed?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Where is the proof that these other universes exist?

They're hypotheses. You know, like God. Only with math.

God is a Spirit, or an immaterial, non-physical being. I wouldn't consider that overly complex.

Why not? Are you saying that all minds are simple? You might be overgeneralizing from a small sample set there.

 

[MadeFromDust]

So was the universe created twice? What happened in between, and how was the first universe destroyed?

No the universe was created once, by God. Unless you hold what men *think* they know above what God knows, in which I feel sorry for your misdirection.

 

[Denny Crane]

Well what if a being can defy physics or other dimensions? Is it possible? Can it be done?

Maybe, but there's no evidence of such a being. Come up with a few hundred different experiments that all turn out to support the theory that anything can defy physics or other dimensions, and I might believe it.

But how can such a being create us in his own image since we can't defy physics or other dimensions?

 

[MadeFromDust]

They're hypotheses. You know, like God. Only with math.

Well I personally think the God hypothesis makes much more logical sense than some unexplainable multiverse theory, for a boat-load of reasons. Trying to sugarcoat your ideas sound like more "complex" or "scientific" explanations does nothing to increase their credibility.

Why not? Are you saying that all minds are simple? You might be overgeneralizing from a small sample set there.

No, I'm saying God doesn't need to be more complex than His creation, otherwise we would never explain anything.

 

[Denny Crane]

No the universe was created once, by God. Unless you hold what men *think* they know above what God knows, in which I feel sorry for your misdirection.

If you believe in both creation myths, the how can they both be true if there's just this one universe? You don't have to read very far into Genesis to see where the one story stops and the second (awkwardly) starts.

 

[magnifier661]

I wish people wouldn't use the word "philosophy" that way. Please stick with "set of beliefs" in future. But here's what you said:



Wait a minute: "The Holy Spirit" and "my spirit" are one and the same? I thought THS was part of God? Are you saying that I'm a bit of God? Pantheism! You old Spinozist, you.



Why are they in constant battle? Presumably God set this up. It sounds like a pretty fucking stupid system. Couldn't he have made them a bit more compatible?



You know, are you sure you're not a Jedi-ist? This sounds an awful lot like the Sides of the Force. Or you could be a Manichean.



Of course not.



Presumably you're talking metaphorically. By the way, since you go on rather a lot about Jesus's blood, what are you views on Transubstantiation?



Seems a bit unfair. By the way, is Gandhi in Heaven or Hell on your particular "philosophy"?



All this talk of blood and fire makes me want to watch The Wicker Man again.



Um - let's put it this way: you already know how to speak in tongues.

LOL, well if you don't like the way I believe that's totally cool coolio! And Gandhi is in hell if he didn't except Jesus Christ as his savior. Does that piss you off or something? Not my law, but you can take it up with God too when you meet him.

 

[MadeFromDust]

If you believe in both creation myths, the how can they both be true if there's just this one universe? You don't have to read very far into Genesis to see where the one story stops and the second (awkwardly) starts.

If you understand the Bible you'll understand there is no direct contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. This is an age-old attempt that anti-theists have tried to use to debunk Christianity.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Cool at least you agree that evolution maybe wrong.

Well, you're a good proof reader, I'll give you that.

Oden's Blood! I wasted an hour on this crap. I've got ritual sacrifices to perform.

 

[magnifier661]

Maybe, but there's no evidence of such a being. Come up with a few hundred different experiments that all turn out to support the theory that anything can defy physics or other dimensions, and I might believe it.

And this is why I embrace science. I think what we've accomplished in such a short time is beyond imagination. You can't right this shit any better in a Sci-fy classic. I have no beef with science. I think it's beautiful and artistic. People that think science isn't an art is fooling themselves. I think it's a masterpiece!

But how can such a being create us in his own image since we can't defy physics or other dimensions?

When we pass and be with God, we will. Isn't that cool?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

And Gandhi is in hell if he didn't except Jesus Christ as his savior. Does that piss you off or something?

So you seriously believe that it's okay to torture somebody for all eternity, not because they're a bad person, but because they won't suck up to you? THAT'S the God you worship?

Not my law, but you can take it up with God too when you meet him.

I'm refraining from making a concentration camp guard reference, but it's hard.

 

[magnifier661]

Well, you're a good proof reader, I'll give you that.

Oden's Blood! I wasted an hour on this crap. I've got ritual sacrifices to perform.

GO BLAZERS!!!!! Can we at least agree on this?

 

[magnifier661]

So you seriously believe that it's okay to torture somebody for all eternity, not because they're a bad person, but because they won't suck up to you? THAT'S the God you worship?



I'm refraining from making a concentration camp guard reference, but it's hard.

Sigh, we just talked about this about 30,000 posts ago. Are we going full circle again? I'm already getting dizzy.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If you understand the Bible you'll understand there is no direct contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2.

You will also "understand" that black is white and up is down. And the idea of the Trinity will finally make sense to you. And you will be very, very happy and content. Except when you get on internet bulletin boards.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

GO BLAZERS!!!!! Can we at least agree on this?

Indeed. Although I would've thought your faith was more compatible with being a Lakers fan.

 

[magnifier661]

Indeed. Although I would've thought your faith was more compatible with being a Lakers fan.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!! Does that make God a Laker fan? Is that why the Lakers have the most titles and Portland is clinging to 1 30+ years ago? Okay I think I just puked typing that.

 

[MadeFromDust]

You will also "understand" that black is white and up is down. And the idea of the Trinity will finally make sense to you. And you will be very, very happy and content. Except when you get on internet bulletin boards.

Seems like you're running out of arguments and are again edging back to the personal level. I guess that's what happens when you have no answers. Have a good night.

 

[magnifier661]

I agree that true science and God can coexist harmlessly. But science today can't have that, so I'm mostly skeptical considering they will throw theories on top of things like pancakes in order to do away with God.

But the cool thing about science is the truth does come out eventually. If you have no fear that God truly exists; then eventually they will find God.

 

[ABM]

Perhaps you could tell me what about that page that you find convincing, because, to be frank, it rambles a bit. Also, am I to understand that you had no firm beliefs about homosexuality before you came across that page or just that you don't think your beliefs are coherent enough for you to state them yourself?

You're right...it was an easy pull. That said, the standard I believe in, the Bible, is clear in a number of passages that homosexuality is a sin. The said (as I had also alluded to in previous posts), so is friends with benefits. In fact, any sexual acts outside the confines of a man/woman marriage is a sin, according to God.

 

[RR7]

based on the fact the He's revealed Himself to mankind throughout the course of history

So the only evidence, ahem, "factual evidence" of his existence is people saying they saw him and talked to him? So that's also the factual proof of the existence of bigfoot, aliens, and the loch ness monster? Interesting.

 

[magnifier661]

So the only evidence, ahem, "factual evidence" of his existence is people saying they saw him and talked to him? So that's also the factual proof of the existence of bigfoot, aliens, and the loch ness monster? Interesting.

Or we have this...

[video=youtube;WUQMJR2BP1w]

 

[RR7]

so we have people who have seen him, and some 7 minute video from you tube I'm sure as shit not watching. Why not just say what evidence he mentions, instead of linking to some video?