Philosophical question?

[magnifier661]

Hey Oden, did you see my personal theory on how God can be all knowing, yet still give us free will? What you think? Doesn't look like anyone cares to take notice, other than crow.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Hey Oden, did you see my personal theory on how God can be all knowing, yet still give us free will? What you think? Doesn't look like anyone cares to take notice, other than crow.

I thought you raised some interesting points, but I'm already of the opinion that God gave us free will and yet can remain all-knowing. Like I said, there is a difference between knowing the decisions you will make, and choosing what decisions you will make. The only way you can ever know true love is if you freely choose it. God has a plan for all, His plan may involve you just reading the back and forths here and deciding for yourself what is most logical and then choosing to follow Him yourself (Like your fiance ). God works in mysterious and very powerful ways. "God cannot" is an oxymoron and everyone alive can accept Jesus as their savior right now and be set free.

 

[MadeFromDust]

How is you fiance doing by the way mags? I still think about her story often and it's truly inspiring to me. I hope she continues to grow in her faith in the Lord.

 

[Denny Crane]

Faith means you believe something, no matter the evidence to the contrary.

There is no boundary of the universe. Everything is within it, including time and space. Because the universe encapsulates time, there was no "before the big bang.". I understand these concepts are hard to grasp...

 

[magnifier661]

I thought you raised some interesting points, but I'm already of the opinion that God gave us free will and yet can remain all-knowing. Like I said, there is a difference between knowing the decisions you will make, and choosing what decisions you will make. The only way you can ever know true love is if you freely choose it. God has a plan for all, His plan may involve you just reading the back and forths here and deciding for yourself what is most logical and then choosing to follow Him yourself (Like your fiance ). God works in mysterious and very powerful ways. "God cannot" is an oxymoron and everyone alive can accept Jesus as their savior right now and be set free.

Yes just having one person (my fiancé) finding Christ is worth it to me. And who knows what others? Maybe just accidentally stumbling on the site might do for them. And planting a seed into someone can grow into a beautiful relationship with Jesus. I'm sure we will be called insane or without logic; but it actually makes me happy that I'm doing good for Christ.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matt. 5.11-12)

And to think in some countries, believing and standing up for Jesus, can get you killed. So it's fine with me.

 

[magnifier661]

I thought you raised some interesting points, but I'm already of the opinion that God gave us free will and yet can remain all-knowing. Like I said, there is a difference between knowing the decisions you will make, and choosing what decisions you will make. The only way you can ever know true love is if you freely choose it. God has a plan for all, His plan may involve you just reading the back and forths here and deciding for yourself what is most logical and then choosing to follow Him yourself (Like your fiance ). God works in mysterious and very powerful ways. "God cannot" is an oxymoron and everyone alive can accept Jesus as their savior right now and be set free.

Yes just having one person (my fiancé) finding Christ is worth it to me. And who knows what others? Maybe just accidentally stumbling on the site might do for them. And planting a seed into someone can grow into a beautiful relationship with Jesus. I'm sure we will be called insane or without logic; but it actually makes me happy that I'm doing good for Christ.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matt. 5.11-12)

And to think in some countries, believing and standing up for Jesus, can get you killed. So it's fine with me.

 

[magnifier661]

How is you fiance doing by the way mags? I still think about her story often and it's truly inspiring to me. I hope she continues to grow in her faith in the Lord.

It's actually quite amazing. She can't keep the bible down. She is always asking me questions on what she thinks the Bible says, and most the time, she is spot on. We went to church together for the first time this morning. She wants to keep going, but says reading the bible alone feels better. I told her that she needs to fellowship with your fellow Christians, so you know you aren't alone in your belief. There is quite a few of us around.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Yes just having one person (my fiancé) finding Christ is worth it to me. And who knows what others? Maybe just accidentally stumbling on the site might do for them. And planting a seed into someone can grow into a beautiful relationship with Jesus. I'm sure we will be called insane or without logic; but it actually makes me happy that I'm doing good for Christ.

“Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matt. 5.11-12)

And to think in some countries, believing and standing up for Jesus, can get you killed. So it's fine with me.

Yeah, it's always so awesome to see someone brought to Christ. I don't care if I'm mocked by a million people, if one person is saved in the process it's so worth it to me. I used to care a lot about what others thought of me, but now I know my judge isn't flesh and bone and I try to do what I can to please Him. Knowledge of man is foolish to God, and is all vanity. When God reveals Himself to this world again all the so-called discoveries and scientific "facts" we've learned will mean zilch, and we will be judged on greater things.

And my mother works with Christian immigrants from Egypt, they told stories about how Muslims would go door to door and behead anyone who isn't a Muslim. It's horrific in the middle ease, I keep them in my prayers often.

 

[MadeFromDust]

It's actually quite amazing. She can't keep the bible down. She is always asking me questions on what she thinks the Bible says, and most the time, she is spot on. We went to church together for the first time this morning. She wants to keep going, but says reading the bible alone feels better. I told her that she needs to fellowship with your fellow Christians, so you know you aren't alone in your belief. There is quite a few of us around.

So cool to hear, you guys will continue to be in my prayers. What translation is she using? My favorites are the NLT and the HCSB, they are a perfect blend between thought-for-thought and word-for-word translations. Perfect and easy to understand for a beginner and very true to the Scriptures.

 

[TripTango]

Trip I think I got the answer... I was thinking about this for a while; and it was a very very good question. Props to you on that, btw.

Okay so this is the question I think you are trying to say:

1.) God is "all knowing"

2.) You cannot know all, if you give free will.

3.) Therefor God did not give us "free will"

So this got really confusing until I actually wrote this out and solved each problem separately.

To answer 1.) It could be possible that since God created the universe; his very essence is outside the realm of the universe. Basically he is not bound by the laws of physics or science in the Universe. Therefor time, gravity, mass, etc. aren't binding. So if you look at this metaphorically; picture the universe under "his microscope" a grand microscope that can see all, know all from beginning to end. That would mean he is "all knowing".

To answer 2.) The universe is bound to all the scientific laws and standards. Gravity, light, space and time cannot be changed. An apple is still an apple and can't be a giraffe. That wouldn't make sense. So in this "petri dish" called the universe; must abide to all logical laws, right?

To answer 3.) Well if God allows life to exist in this universe; then free will must be given. You cannot bend these laws in this dish. Therefor, God gave us free will.

So basically; his choice to give us life on this universe means that he just put us in this petri dish. And he can see all because he is still outside this boundary outside the "universe". This can also explain why Angels don't have free will. They exist outside the universe in his realm and because he is all-knowing, it is impossible for them to have a "free-will".

I hope this explains it. I think it makes a lot of sense. I would like a physicist like you to break this down and tell me is this possible, or will I need to go back to the drawing board.

Still doesn't address my central objection. If God's presence and omniscience are timeless, stretching out to infinity in the past and future, his act of creation is not a momentary thing -- he creates everything at all times at once, knowing the exact outcome for every single organism before that organism even exists. If this is the case, your birth and death were preordained from the very moment the universe came to be (in our limited time view). Your parents may have acted of their own accord in conceiving you, but god knew they would from the moment he set the wheels of the universe in motion. Thus, his very act of creation becomes the defining moment of what will be and what will happen for all time.

 

[TripTango]

I hope this explains it. I think it makes a lot of sense. I would like a physicist like you to break this down and tell me is this possible, or will I need to go back to the drawing board.

We are both talking well outside the boundaries of physics, fwiw (and there's nothing wrong with that!).

 

[magnifier661]

Faith means you believe something, no matter the evidence to the contrary.

There is no boundary of the universe. Everything is within it, including time and space. Because the universe encapsulates time, there was no "before the big bang.". I understand these concepts are hard to grasp...

Okay I'm gonna break down your statement.

1.) Faith means you believe something, no matter the evidence to the contrary.

2.) There is no boundary of the universe.

3.) Because there is evidence that the universe has no boundary; you require no faith in believing that the universe has no boundary.

So I looked up the word "Faith"

faith   [feyth] Show IPA
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology . the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

So actually, what you described as "Faith" isn't the only definition. It also means confidence or trust in a person or thing; faith in another's ability. And with the "scientific evidence"; it is true that nothing can be absolute unless it's scientific law; therefor a certain level of "faith" must be given to the scholars and researchers in their ability to give us the proper evidence.

So I will disagree that your definition of "Faith" isn't based on something, no matter the evidence to the contrary.

Then you said there is no boundary to the universe. I have been reading "Hawking's proposal", and I must say it's very interesting. But even Hawking's himself; which many agree is one of the most "brilliant minds in science" said

...the universe has not existed for ever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began, would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, spacetime is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge.

So if this is true; then there is no undeniable evidence that the Universe had no boundary. But is an intellectual theory. Again, having "Faith" in the brilliant mind of Hawking.

So since there isn't 100% evidence that the Universe has no beginning or end; then you need "Faith" in this theory.

 

[Denny Crane]

See definition #2 in your own post.

 

[magnifier661]

Still doesn't address my central objection. If God's presence and omniscience are timeless, stretching out to infinity in the past and future, his act of creation is not a momentary thing -- he creates everything at all times at once, knowing the exact outcome for every single organism before that organism even exists. If this is the case, your birth and death were preordained from the very moment the universe came to be (in our limited time view). Your parents may have acted of their own accord in conceiving you, but god knew they would from the moment he set the wheels of the universe in motion. Thus, his very act of creation becomes the defining moment of what will be and what will happen for all time.

I agree that it's true in regards to his ability outside the universe; but the moment life began inside the universe; then it could apply. Meaning, the words in the Bible make sense to the life inside the universe. If God operated in the universe; then he is bound by the philosophical laws of the universe.

I believe God exists not only inside the universe; but outside it as well. The part of him inside cannot be all knowing; but since his being is also outside the universe; then he can very well be and justifiably say "I am all knowing and still give you free will".

 

[magnifier661]

See definition #2 in your own post.

You cannot take only a bit of the definition and say it's the entire definition. Do you agree? I agree that you are partially correct in your statement, but I am just as equally correct in mine. I say you have "faith" and you deny it because you use definition #2. I say you have faith by using definition #1. So who is more correct?

 

[Denny Crane]

Every one of the definitions mean #2.

 

[magnifier661]

Every one of the definitions mean #2.

So you believe definition of 1.) isn't truly a definition then?

 

[Denny Crane]

It's a different usage, but it implies without proof or evidence.

 

[magnifier661]

It's a different usage, but it implies without proof or evidence.

Okay, well I didn't take it that way. I actually took it as having "faith" in people or things. Or the faith that what was presented to you is accurate.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

I have faith that both of you are correct.

 

[magnifier661]

Denny is this the jest of your "belief"?

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#m1

The Big Bang; not the other theories?

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny is this the jest of your "belief"?

http://www.cfa.harvard.edu/seuforum/faq.htm#m1

The Big Bang; not the other theories?

The big bang is as incontrovertible as anything can be. It's not a matter of Faith, it's a matter of Reason. Numerous experiments and objective observations support it. Numerous experiments designed to disprove it fail to do so.

I didn't see anything on the page that disagrees with what I know.

However, when scientists talk about life on other planets or elsewhere in the universe, I don't see any Reason involved.

 

[magnifier661]

The big bang is as incontrovertible as anything can be. It's not a matter of Faith, it's a matter of Reason. Numerous experiments and objective observations support it. Numerous experiments designed to disprove it fail to do so.

I didn't see anything on the page that disagrees with what I know.

However, when scientists talk about life on other planets or elsewhere in the universe, I don't see any Reason involved.

Did I say the "Big Bang" was wrong? Just asking if you believe it. So I take it you do.

So anyways, do you think the other theories are wrong? Like Multiverse, expansion and contraction, etc?

 

[crowTrobot]

"God cannot" is an oxymoron.

can god make a square circle?

a free will choice is by definition undetermined before it is made. an undetermined choice is by definition unknowable before it is made. knowing something that is by definition unknowable is a logical contradiction, no different than a square circle. you won't find many christian philosophers that would agree with you that god can make logical contradictions into reality.

 

[Denny Crane]

Did I say the "Big Bang" was wrong? Just asking if you believe it. So I take it you do.

So anyways, do you think the other theories are wrong? Like Multiverse, expansion and contraction, etc?

Expansion and contraction are not mutually exclusive to the big bang. They just raise the question of whether there is enough gravity to reverse the expansion.

Multiverse theory is supported by elegant mathematics, and there is little evidence to support it. The big bang is a feature of multiverse theory, and quantum mechanics is so strange that it suggests multiverse as a possibility.

Given that we know that the universe is not only expanding, it is doing so at an accelerated rate, my best guess would be expansion. It is not a certainty, and I don't claim it to be some sort of truth. It's just what seems likely. That said, there is new evidence being explored all the time that makes other theories more likely.

Dark matter has only recently been detected. Something is out there surrounding galaxies everywhere we look. It's clearly affecting angular momentum in ways that don't make sense without dark matter's existence. It behaves like matter because of the gravitational effect it has. It can be measured, and there's so much of it that my view of how the universe ends might need to be adjusted. You see, if dark matter can hold galaxies together, the it might be only galaxies that become so far apart from one another that the only stars you'd see in the sky would be those in the same galaxy as you. But all the elements that fuel stars would eventually be converted into elements (e.g.hydrogen -> iron) that won't fuel stars.

 

[magnifier661]

Expansion and contraction are not mutually exclusive to the big bang. They just raise the question of whether there is enough gravity to reverse the expansion.

Multiverse theory is supported by elegant mathematics, and there is little evidence to support it. The big bang is a feature of multiverse theory, and quantum mechanics is so strange that it suggests multiverse as a possibility.

Given that we know that the universe is not only expanding, it is doing so at an accelerated rate, my best guess would be expansion. It is not a certainty, and I don't claim it to be some sort of truth. It's just what seems likely. That said, there is new evidence being explored all the time that makes other theories more likely.

Dark matter has only recently been detected. Something is out there surrounding galaxies everywhere we look. It's clearly affecting angular momentum in ways that don't make sense without dark matter's existence. It behaves like matter because of the gravitational effect it has. It can be measured, and there's so much of it that my view of how the universe ends might need to be adjusted. You see, if dark matter can hold galaxies together, the it might be only galaxies that become so far apart from one another that the only stars you'd see in the sky would be those in the same galaxy as you. But all the elements that fuel stars would eventually be converted into elements (e.g.hydrogen -> iron) that won't fuel stars.

So Big Bang has the best evidence; and it's the best evidence. Then when I say my theory sound "reasonable"; why would you mock it? And depending on the other theories, they don't have much evidence to support them as well. But they were once theories too yes? Same as "The Big Bang" before evidence started swaying science to believe this is the best case scenario.

So making a joke of being "reasonable", because I was trying to explain God with science; and well in a philosophical way, that doesn't make me reasonable? Because it's God?

That may have not been your intention, but I got that from the comment; especially after Maris was basically calling people believing in God, not sophisticated.

 

[Denny Crane]

So Big Bang has the best evidence; and it's the best evidence. Then when I say my theory sound "reasonable"; why would you mock it? And depending on the other theories, they don't have much evidence to support them as well. But they were once theories too yes? Same as "The Big Bang" before evidence started swaying science to believe this is the best case scenario.

So making a joke of being "reasonable", because I was trying to explain God with science; and well in a philosophical way, that doesn't make me reasonable? Because it's God?

That may have not been your intention, but I got that from the comment; especially after Maris was basically calling people believing in God, not sophisticated.

Like I said, the Big Bang is as incontrovertible as anything can be. Every bit of evidence and every observation continues to support it. I've not seen any evidence or observation that contradicts it. It is as sure a thing as the earth being round (ish). Just as there is no reason to doubt the earth is round, there's no reason to doubt the big bang. The evidence is just as compelling as sending rockets into orbit with tv cameras; the rockets orbit the earth because it is round, and the tv pictures show something like a sphere from every vantage point.

I fully understand faith and reason and the difference between them. Religion teaches that evidence will cause doubt and to believe anyway. That is Faith.

 

[TripTango]

I agree that it's true in regards to his ability outside the universe; but the moment life began inside the universe; then it could apply. Meaning, the words in the Bible make sense to the life inside the universe. If God operated in the universe; then he is bound by the philosophical laws of the universe.

I believe God exists not only inside the universe; but outside it as well. The part of him inside cannot be all knowing; but since his being is also outside the universe; then he can very well be and justifiably say "I am all knowing and still give you free will".

What you are describing is limited omniscience, which is an oxymoron. Either he's timeless and all-knowing, or he's not -- you can't have it both ways, even with a petri dish analogy. (that doesn't make it scientific, btw! ) What you seem to be describing is like a superman/kryptonite situation, where god loses some of his super powers within the very universe he created -- this is simply not consistent with the definitions of omniscience and omnipotence.

But I still give you full marks for effort. At least you tried something beyond just throwing up your hands and saying "Because God, that's why!"

 

[magnifier661]

What you are describing is limited omniscience, which is an oxymoron. Either he's timeless and all-knowing, or he's not -- you can't have it both ways, even with a petri dish analogy. (that doesn't make it scientific, btw! ) What you seem to be describing is like a superman/kryptonite situation, where god loses some of his super powers within the very universe he created -- this is simply not consistent with the definitions of omniscience and omnipotence.

But I still give you full marks for effort. At least you tried something beyond just throwing up your hands and saying "Because God, that's why!"

Okay how about this? I have been, once again, trying to break this down.

And I am going to scratch everything I've said before; just because I tried to explain things "scientifically"; which I believe isn't the angle. I am going to try and approach this more "philosophically" and "theologically". So this will still be a matter of "Faith" moreso than actual "Science". I want to make this clear before I proceed.

Okay first thing I did was I wanted to make sure I knew exactly what Omniscient means; so I looked it up

adjective
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
noun
2. an omniscient being.
3. the Omniscient, God.

So I believe I am right generalizing that being omniscient is to know everything from the past and the future. Or what I remember reading in the bible saying he is the Alpha and Omega.

And when I define "free will"; I am going to define it as the Arminians define it.

Man has free will to respond or resist: Free will is limited by God's sovereignty, but God's sovereignty allows all men the choice to accept the Gospel of Jesus through faith, simultaneously allowing all men to resist.

Was a little confused when I read this; but I think I understand it like: "You do not have ultimate "libertarian freedom"; you are allowed the choice to accept God or not. Everything else is pre-disposed. This is like "God has given us the "free will to choose him, by not allowing him to be connected to us until we accept Jesus as our personal savior"

I am going to give a scripture that explains this. And this is Jesus answering to Nicodemus.

"There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again" (John 3:1-7).

Keep in mind that born from water, means born in the flesh; not baptism.

I take this verse like God is disconnected spiritually with us until we call upon the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words; God has chosen to give us the "free-will" to either choose him or not. Until we choose him; then he will not know us. Therefor neither God nor man know each other until we accept Jesus Christ.

And other scriptures explain this as well:

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1st Corinthians 2:14).

I see this as another scripture explaining that God can't know us until we are born again in the spirit. In other words; he chooses not to know our choice or us until we choose him. This goes with alot of Christian thinking that believes, you can't fully understand God's word until you are "born again of the spirit".

There are two births in Christian thinking. The one of the flesh; which God chooses to give us "free will" in accepting him. Then the birth of the "Spirit"; which is when connection is made with God; and from that day forward; the spirit will be forever connected with God and his power.

And to go further in the book; you can read from Genisis:

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

Notice, God said they would die, but they really didn't die Physically. They actually died "Spiritually". Meaning their Spirit discconected itself from God.

"But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity." (Luke 13:27)

-- Explaining he doesn't know who we are.

So in reality, it would be easy for God to be omniscient; if the one rule of this is we don't exist to God unless we are once again connected in spirit with God.

So there really isn't a contridiction of knowing all things; but not knowing us because we have "free will" to choose to know him. Until that time, he will not know.

 

[TripTango]

So there really isn't a contridiction of knowing all things; but not knowing us because we have "free will" to choose to know him. Until that time, he will not know.

Now you are breaking timelessness! If god is truly timeless, existing simultaneously in past and future, there is no "until that time" -- he is ALL TIME. If you suddenly accept God on your death bed, he must have known about that eternally just as he knew about your birth before you were born. There is no "waiting" for an omniscient being who exists simultaneously throughout time -- there is only knowing. Which brings us back to the paradox...