Philosophical question? (4 Viewers)

[TripTango]

But wait a minute?!?! I thought morality is just a natural evolution and has no connection with God or a spirit? All we would have to do is find the information in the DNA; and we can make a perfect species. So how can we not predict human behavior; when it's just chemicals, protein and information imprinted in our DNA? Seems like a complete contridiction if you believe in Natural Selection.

Also, zoology has been pretty "spot on" with many species in predicting their behavior; either by studying their anatomy and life on this planet. What makes us different?

Show me where anyone claimed that morality was governed by our DNA. I'll wait.

 

[magnifier661]

Show me where anyone claimed that morality was governed by our DNA. I'll wait.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_ethics

Richard Dawkins describes how we must rise above our selfish genes to behave morally (that is, evolution has endowed us with various instincts, but we need some other moral system to decide which ones to empower or control). Dawkins has since expressed interest in what Sam Harris calls a science of morality, which starts with the assumption that "morality" refers to "facts about the flourishing of conscious creatures".

"Selfish Gene"

An organism is expected to evolve to maximize its inclusive fitness—the number of copies of its genes passed on globally (rather than by a particular individual). As a result, populations will tend towards an evolutionarily stable strategy. The book also coins the term meme for a unit of human cultural evolution analogous to the gene, suggesting that such "selfish" replication may also model human culture, in a different sense. Memetics has become the subject of many studies since the publication of the book.

According to this "theory"; through the evolutionary process, species have devoloped coping mechanisms to create a evolutionary stable strategy. If you can find this; which is imprinted on the DNA; then you will be able to unravel the history of "moral evolution" by knowing how specific "missing links" in mental evolution; you can create the perfect probability to alter this "genetic mutation", thereby altering how we can turn off certain emotions; value systems or whatever. Basically, if you know the history of the genome during catastrophic genocides, or even at a basic level as rape; you can actually prevent this "genetic mutation" from being passed to the next generation of human species.

 

[MARIS61]

So do you think it's moral for that soccer team that crashed in the Andes to eat each other for survival?

The dead ones, you bet.

Do you think it's moral for a woman to kill her 1 year old baby; because she found out that if she doesn't; her entire family would be killed?

Absurd scenario but of course not, that's pre-meditated murder.

 

[MARIS61]

So what if a "lie detector" was fined tune without fault. Many believe it's almost there.

They're lying.

 

[TripTango]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_ethics



"Selfish Gene"



According to this "theory"; through the evolutionary process, species have devoloped coping mechanisms to create a evolutionary stable strategy. If you can find this; which is imprinted on the DNA; then you will be able to unravel the history of "moral evolution" by knowing how specific "missing links" in mental evolution; you can create the perfect probability to alter this "genetic mutation", thereby altering how we can turn off certain emotions; value systems or whatever. Basically, if you know the history of the genome during catastrophic genocides, or even at a basic level as rape; you can actually prevent this "genetic mutation" from being passed to the next generation of human species.

Read that first piece you quoted again, carefully.

 

[magnifier661]

And MARIS69 and Denny.... Don't generalize the acts of muslims, budists, or any other religion other than Christianity; since that is the "Faith" I believe in, and completely disagree with the other forms of "Religion". You seem that telling me what the "Mayans" did, has any relevence to my belief.

I see your "Christian killings or mass murder" and raise you.

It has been estimated that in less than the past 100 years, governments under the banner of communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives.

and

Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.

and

Vox Day notes concerning atheism and mass murder:
“ Apparently it was just an amazing coincidence that every Communist of historical note publicly declared his atheism … .there have been twenty-eight countries in world history that can be confirmed to have been ruled by regimes with avowed atheists at the helm … These twenty-eight historical regimes have been ruled by eighty-nine atheists, of whom more than half have engaged in democidal162 acts of the sort committed by Stalin and Mao …
The total body count for the ninety years between 1917 and 2007 is approximately 148 million dead at the bloody hands of fifty-two atheists, three times more than all the human beings killed by war, civil war, and individual crime in the entire twentieth century combined.
The historical record of collective atheism is thus 182,716 times worse on an annual basis than Christianity’s worst and most infamous misdeed, the Spanish Inquisition. It is not only Stalin and Mao who were so murderously inclined, they were merely the worst of the whole Hell-bound lot. For every Pol Pot whose infamous name is still spoken with horror today, there was a Mengistu, a Bierut, and a Choibalsan, godless men whose names are now forgotten everywhere but in the lands they once ruled with a red hand.
Is a 58 percent chance that an atheist leader will murder a noticeable percentage of the population over which he rules sufficient evidence that atheism does, in fact, provide a systematic influence to do bad things? If that is not deemed to be conclusive, how about the fact that the average atheist crime against humanity is 18.3 million percent worse than the very worst depredation committed by Christians, even though atheists have had less than one-twentieth the number of opportunities with which to commit them. If one considers the statistically significant size of the historical atheist set and contrasts it with the fact that not one in a thousand religious leaders have committed similarly large-scale atrocities, it is impossible to conclude otherwise, even if we do not yet understand exactly why this should be the case. Once might be an accident, even twice could be coincidence, but fifty-two incidents in ninety years reeks of causation![10]

and

The atheist Mao Zedong killed tens of millions during his Great Leap Forward and many more during the purges and slaughters of the Cultural revolution.

So telling me that Christianity has killed 100 times over the amount of Atheist apologist, is not only false; but one of the biggest "Strawman" so far in this thread.

 

[magnifier661]

They're lying.

Cute...

 

[magnifier661]

The dead ones, you bet.

Yes the dead ones.

Absurd scenario but of course not, that's pre-meditated murder.

So do you think abortion is "pre-meditated murder"? How about euthanasia?

 

[magnifier661]

Read that first piece you quoted again, carefully.

I did and glad you said that. Instinct is a program in the gene through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution right? So like I said, if you had the ability to unravel the "instincts" that trigger the morality; then couldn't you "de-program" humanity for acts of violence via the DNA?

 

[TripTango]

I did and glad you said that. Instinct is a program in the gene through hundreds of thousands of years of evolution right? So like I said, if you had the ability to unravel the "instincts" that trigger the morality; then couldn't you "de-program" humanity for acts of violence via the DNA?

I'm on my phone, or else I'd quote from your quote to show how you are misquoting it. According to your piece, moral systems have been developed to regulate instincts, they are not "triggered" by them. At a DNA level, there is very little that separates either one of us from some atheist leader-worshipper in North Korea -- it's been our external influences that have shaped our morals and world views differently.

 

[TripTango]

And MARIS69 and Denny.... Don't generalize the acts of muslims, budists, or any other religion other than Christianity; since that is the "Faith" I believe in, and completely disagree with the other forms of "Religion". You seem that telling me what the "Mayans" did, has any relevence to my belief.

I see your "Christian killings or mass murder" and raise you.

[Snipped many evil atheists.]

So you're going to respond to a gross generalization of Christians with a gross generalization of atheists? C'mon Mags, you're better than that!

It's just my 2 cents, but I'd argue that the brand of communism practiced by those dictators was essentially a perverted form of religion, whether or not they worshipped a god. Maniacal dictators gonna do what they do, with whatever rallying cry will get the job done.

 

[magnifier661]

So you're going to respond to a gross generalization of Christians with a gross generalization of atheists? C'mon Mags, you're better than that!

It's just my 2 cents, but I'd argue that the brand of communism practiced by those dictators was essentially a perverted form of religion, whether or not they worshipped a god. Maniacal dictators gonna do what they do, with whatever rallying cry will get the job done.

Oh trust me Trip, I am 100% agreement with you. But for the absurd argument that my God is this mass murderer and Atheism or independent thinking is somehow more moral just got trumped. That's it. Neither are moral acts, IMO.

 

[magnifier661]

[video=youtube;w1eTIAHeYqQ]

Hey not bad buddy, not bad at all!

I would like to make another "side note" about Nazism... First off, the "vatican" is centralized in Italy. Mussolini was allied with Nazi Germany. The vatican would know damn well if they didn't support or "half heartedly support" nazism; their very existence would have been wiped off the planet. I believe they cowardly endorsed Hilter in fear of their own existence.

 

[MARIS61]

[video=youtube;w1eTIAHeYqQ]

Hey not bad buddy, not bad at all!

I would like to make another "side note" about Nazism... First off, the "vatican" is centralized in Italy. Mussolini was allied with Nazi Germany. The vatican would know damn well if they didn't support or "half heartedly support" nazism; their very existence would have been wiped off the planet. I believe they cowardly endorsed Hilter in fear of their own existence.

They did it for the same reasons Hitler did, as evidenced by the massive hoard of wealth they now have.

That didn't come from passing the plate around the pews.

 

[magnifier661]

They did it for the same reasons Hitler did, as evidenced by the massive hoard of wealth they now have.

That didn't come from passing the plate around the pews.

Funny huh? That's why I laugh when Atheist bring up the "Catholic Church" and "Hitler" as some strawman, that the atrocities Nazi Germany was somehow a "Christian Belief". It was simply a "Darwin belief" as skewd as it seems.

 

[Denny Crane]

what i personally think isn't relevant, because for any answer i give you will find people who disagree with me. you were making a claim about moral prescriptions that humans agree about. if a hostile alien race appeared tomorrow humans would be widely split on what to do about it.

Shoot 'em!

(And let God sort it out)

 

[TripTango]

Shoot 'em!

(And let God sort it out)

Good thing we've got Will Smith on our side!

 

[Denny Crane]

If the aliens are anything like us, they'll colonize, take our land, rape our women, and ultimately kill us all.

 

[magnifier661]

If the aliens are anything like us, they'll colonize, take our land, rape our women, and ultimately kill us all.

Yes because there is such a thing as "good and evil".

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Denny I think you're missing out on a huge money making opportunity here.

www.GodTwo.com

 

[magnifier661]

Denny I think you're missing out on a huge money making opportunity here.

www.GodTwo.com

THIS.... LOL!

 

[ABM]

Denny I think you're missing out on a huge money making opportunity here.

www.GodTwo.com

Good point. Denny's never really had any morals.......to speak of.

But, then again, who's judging......or even can for that matter?

 

[magnifier661]

http://creation.com/britain-needs-god

In 2011 and in recent years, there have been number of reports on the decline of morality in Britain.[50] As noted above, Peter Hitchens is the ex-atheist brother of atheist Christopher Hitchens. In the aforemention article entitled Britain needs God Creation Ministries International wrote:

“Peter also wrote of what he saw as the growing public discourtesy and incivility in Britain. When he returned to London, after a five-year absence, he was shocked by the decline in people’s behaviour. He commented, “The rapid vanishing of Christianity from public consciousness and life, as the last fully Christian generation ages and disappears, seems to me to be a major part of it. I do not think I would have been half so shocked by the squalor and rudeness of 1990 Moscow, if I had not come from a country where Christian forbearance was still well-established. If I had then been able to see the London of 2010, I would have been equally shocked.” In many respects, Peter’s book is a warning to people, as to the kind of society they can expect if they continue to reject Christian beliefs.[51]

 

[TripTango]

http://creation.com/britain-needs-god

Yeah, they better be careful, or they'll end up like those rude, dirty Japanese folks. Oh wait...

 

[magnifier661]

Yeah, they better be careful, or they'll end up like those rude, dirty Japanese folks. Oh wait...

I've been to Japan. Christianity is on the rise and they already had two other "god based" religions.

 

[TripTango]

I've been to Japan. Christianity is on the rise and they already had two other "god based" religions.

Neither of these facts support the ludicrous conclusion of the author you quoted.

 

[magnifier661]

Neither of these facts support the ludicrous conclusion of the author you quoted.

Amazing. That author was hithen's right hand man before he left atheism and converted to Christianity. He would be praised if he rode in on te banner of atheism; then is considered a fool because he became a Christian. Interesting...

 

[TripTango]

Amazing. That author was hithen's right hand man before he left atheism and converted to Christianity. He would be praised if he rode in on te banner of atheism; then is considered a fool because he became a Christian. Interesting...

What are you talking about? I'm not attacking the man, I'm attacking his conclusion. And I would do so whether he was the pope or Prince.

 

[magnifier661]

What are you talking about? I'm not attacking the man, I'm attacking his conclusion. And I would do so whether he was the pope or Prince.

It's amazing because some of the writings written by atheists are amazingly straw man, yet no one cares. If an author for a creationist goes straw man, then it's called idiotic!

 

[TripTango]

It's amazing because some of the writings written by atheists are amazingly straw man, yet no one cares. If an author for a creationist goes straw man, then it's called idiotic!

This is an ironic post, Mags. There was nothing "straw man" about Peter Hitchens' argument above -- it was simply bad logic. And by attacking "some of the writings written by atheists", you are yourself attacking a dummy opponent -- a straw man.

If politeness were directly proportional to Christianity and belief in the Bible, as Peter Hitchens suggests, countries with very low numbers of Christians, like Japan, would be among the very rudest. This is definitely not the case. No straw man here, just a weak argument.