Real issue I'm dealing with - atheism vs judaism

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I share GOD's frustration, saying the same thing over and over. The problem is that Christians think everyone is just like them. We sometimes hear the term "Judeo-Christian". There is no such thing as "Judeo-Christian", it's really just Christianity in evangelical dress. The two are very different. Christianity is based on acceptance of Christ as savior and son of God. If a person does not believe that Jesus is savior and son of God he/she is not a Christian, so it's impossible to be a Chrisitian atheist. I know some atheists who gift in December because it's family tradition but they clearly call themselves atheists, not Christians or Christian atheists or secular Christians. Similarly, Islam is based on submission to the will of Allah; the word Islam means "submission". So if a person does not accept Allah and Muhammed as his prophet, he/she is not a Muslim; it's impossible to be a Muslim atheist. Since Judaism is a culture and heritage as well as religion it is indeed possible to be a Jewish atheist (sometimes called secular Jew). It is not possible to be a Jewish Christian. So called Messianic Jews are actually for the most part Christian by birth who adopt some trappings of Judaism. They are no more Jews than I would be Christian if I put up a tree in December (I don't). Jews who convert are no longer Jews. It's not just American Jews; worldwide, the secular Jew is viewed by other Jews as a non observant Jew and the convert as no longer Jewish. There is also history to consider; in times past a Jew who converted was required to abandon his/her family, move from the Jewish community, which was segregated in its own neighborhood (ghetto) and renounce all practices of Judaism. Small wonder that person could not be considered a Jew.

Maybe some like magnifier just can't accept it. But can you accept that GOD and I have lived our whole lives in this culture/tradition and do know what we are talking about, even if it seems weird to you?

Atheism required no faith. Faith is accepting things for which there is no evidence. Atheism is not accepting anything for which there is no evidence. The opposite of faith.

No that's agnostic. An atheist doesn't believe in God and doesn't require evidence to support that belief. Agnostic are ones that don't believe in God because there is no evidence either way.

And I never said there is such thing as a Christian atheist. I said Christian Jew; which would apply if you believe that Judaism is of culture and heritage than a religious stance.

If you can be an atheist Jew; then one can be a Christian Jew. You can't have pieces of a belief without going all in. Sorry, you may think I'm confused, but I think it's you that is confused for thinking one can be an atheist Jew and not a Christian Jew.
 
No that's agnostic. An atheist doesn't believe in God and doesn't require evidence to support that belief. Agnostic are ones that don't believe in God because there is no evidence either way.

And I never said there is such thing as a Christian atheist. I said Christian Jew; which would apply if you believe that Judaism is of culture and heritage than a religious stance.

If you can be an atheist Jew; then one can be a Christian Jew. You can't have pieces of a belief without going all in. Sorry, you may think I'm confused, but I think it's you that is confused for thinking one can be an atheist Jew and not a Christian Jew.

Maybe some like magnifier just can't accept it. But can you accept that GOD and I have lived our whole lives in this culture/tradition and do know what we are talking about, even if it seems weird to you?

Regardless of your logic, there is reality that crandc and I live in. In that reality, we are atheists and Jews, often referred to as non practicing Jews or secular Jews. We do not have the same high regard by the Jewish community as those who are devout, but we are accepted as Jews and invited into celebrations and cultural events and are part of the Jewish life.

On the other hand, I have never met a Jew that considered someone who believed in Jesus to be Jewish.

Now this is the de facto law in the Jewish world. (in other words, that's reality)

I don't know what the de jure law is, you would have to talk with a bunch of rabbi's to know that.





As far as your definition of agnostic and atheist, they simply aren't right. We have gone of this a bunch, you keep insisting that green is red, so there is no discussion to be had.
 
Wrong definition of atheism, magnifier. Why am I not surprised?
 
Wrong definition of atheism, magnifier. Why am I not surprised?

You can justify it all day long, but the words are pretty simple. You can adjust it like the Jews adjusted their belief to suit your "atheistic needs"; but in the end; its just what it is.
 
Why don't you look at the situation, and at least realize in the context of our conversation, our definitions are required. If you use your definitions, then there are no words to conceptualize our thoughts. Hence, we can't have the conversation. If you continue to be stubborn over these definitions than you are killing communication. We can't have the discussion.
 
Why don't you look at the situation, and at least realize in the context of our conversation, our definitions are required. If you use your definitions, then there are no words to conceptualize our thoughts. Hence, we can't have the conversation. If you continue to be stubborn over these definitions than you are killing communication. We can't have the discussion.

Exactly. It's like, you're trying to discuss table and another person keeps insisting a door is really a table and you explain over and over the differences but still insists a door is a table. Makes it hard to talk about tables.
 
What do you guys think of some Christian's fascination with Jews? I sometimes watch some religious channels for the lol, and they are obsessed with helping Jewish people. Personally, i'd be freaked out.
 
Why don't you look at the situation, and at least realize in the context of our conversation, our definitions are required. If you use your definitions, then there are no words to conceptualize our thoughts. Hence, we can't have the conversation. If you continue to be stubborn over these definitions than you are killing communication. We can't have the discussion.

But it's not like I am the only one that feels this way. In fact, there are agnostics that agree. I think the stubbornness are from those that see the contradiction and can't have any of it.

So you can say "I can't have a condo with you because we don't share the same views" only means. "I am too stubborn to see your point"
 
What do you guys think of some Christian's fascination with Jews? I sometimes watch some religious channels for the lol, and they are obsessed with helping Jewish people. Personally, i'd be freaked out.

Well many Christians still view Jews as God's chosen people.
 
What do you guys think of some Christian's fascination with Jews? I sometimes watch some religious channels for the lol, and they are obsessed with helping Jewish people. Personally, i'd be freaked out.

I really don't get it. I think it might have to do with the perceived (might not really, but it's perceived as such) standing that Jews hold in our society, the lawyers, the entertainers, the businessmen, basically people of importance based both on being moral people and holding coveted jobs. So aligning yourselves with these people may seem like a smart thing to do. It seems selfish to only help your own, so aligning themselves with an outside group is seen as something Jesus or other honorable people would do. They choose the Jews because they are "other", but they aren't too "other" if you get what im saying. They still believe in a lot of what we do, but they aren't us, so.
Also, the opposing side (at least viewed as opposing side) are the Muslims, the brown people, the religion that even more different, the truly "other" people. So we buddy buddy with the Jews in part for cover against our Muslim enemies.

These are all just ideas off the top of my head, I have never thought about it before, so perhaps I am way off. Or perhaps some of these ideas work and others don't.
 
If Jews are the chosen people, but Jews don't believe in Jesus, doesn't it stand to reason that that one part of that equation is wrong? Either:
A) Jesus is not the messiah
B) Jews are not the chosen people

Many Jews believe in Jesus. In fact, a number of them, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote the New Testament. The Old Testament "leads" to Jesus. The New Testament is all "about" Jesus.
 
Many Jews believe in Jesus. In fact, a number of them, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, wrote the New Testament. The Old Testament "leads" to Jesus. The New Testament is all "about" Jesus.
Wrong. They are Christian. For clarification, please retread entire thread 7 times.
 
Would it bother you if people kept insisting the New Testament "leads" to porn? In essence that is akin to your claim. Or less perverted, your bible leads to the Quran.
 
Would it bother you if people kept insisting the New Testament "leads" to porn? In essence that is akin to your claim. Or less perverted, your bible leads to the Quran.


????
 
If Jews are the chosen people, but Jews don't believe in Jesus, doesn't it stand to reason that that one part of that equation is wrong? Either:
A) Jesus is not the messiah
B) Jews are not the chosen people

No. Just because a Jew is chosen, doesn't mean they know everything.
 
Call him converted....Christian...whatever you'd like, but Paul was still always a Jew. He certainly wasn't a Gentile.

Acts 26:1-23

Then Agrippa said to Paul, “You have permission to speak for yourself.”

So Paul motioned with his hand and began his defense: 2 “King Agrippa, I consider myself fortunate to stand before you today as I make my defense against all the accusations of the Jews, 3 and especially so because you are well acquainted with all the Jewish customs and controversies. Therefore, I beg you to listen to me patiently.

4 “The Jewish people all know the way I have lived ever since I was a child, from the beginning of my life in my own country, and also in Jerusalem. 5 They have known me for a long time and can testify, if they are willing, that I conformed to the strictest sect of our religion, living as a Pharisee. 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 8 Why should any of you consider it incredible that God raises the dead?

9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth. 10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the Lord’s people in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them. 11 Many a time I went from one synagogue to another to have them punished, and I tried to force them to blaspheme. I was so obsessed with persecuting them that I even hunted them down in foreign cities.

12 “On one of these journeys I was going to Damascus with the authority and commission of the chief priests. 13 About noon, King Agrippa, as I was on the road, I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, blazing around me and my companions. 14 We all fell to the ground, and I heard a voice saying to me in Aramaic,[a] ‘Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“ ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16 ‘Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen and will see of me. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. 21 That is why some Jews seized me in the temple courts and tried to kill me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”


and.........

Philippians 3:1-14
Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2 Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in[a] Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
 
Would it bother you if people kept insisting the New Testament "leads" to porn? In essence that is akin to your claim. Or less perverted, your bible leads to the Quran.

Lolwut?!
 
Call him converted....Christian...whatever you'd like, but Paul was still always a Jew. He certainly wasn't a Gentile.

Acts 26:1-23




and.........

Philippians 3:1-14
Quoting your little book does not make him a Jew
 
So you are saying God is choosing them just to send them to hell. That is a terrible god.

God chose Jews to be his messengers....both, of the Law and the Gospel. Nonetheless, he's given us "all" free will to choose him......or not.
 
Quoting your little book does not make him a Jew

I choose to believe that it does. At this point, we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
 
Quoting your little book does not make him a Jew

That's okay because Paul's own testimony is good enough. But you go ahead and try and say all proof is only in that little book.

And why are you acting all pompous anyway? I mean you are of a faith that accepts atheism. Total contradiction.
 
But the Jew that chooses Jesus is not a Jew and therefore no longer chosen. To remain chosen, he/she must remain a Jew, and Jews go to hell.
 

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