Remember....

[Tribute to H2O]

when the Knicks had a productive starting small forward and center? I do. We had an 18 and 7 guy in Van Horn and a solid center in Michael Doleac. We traded them for what? Trash!. We have one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA in Tim Thomas(nevermind that he's overpaid) and the guy who was supposed to be the key to the trade Nazr Mohammed who's even worse then Tim Thomas. Doleac in one game against the Magic had 11pts, 9 rebounds 1 block and I think 1 assist. Nazr hasnt matched that in THREE games. If we still had Doleac and Van Horn we'd be looking alot better then we are now. Instead our center position is just sorry and whenever I think about it I break into tears. I want Isiah Thomas's resignation(even though I'm not going to get it). He's been lucky so far but I have the feeling that another Toronto episode is on the horizon. I appreciate the fact that he's brought excitement back to the Garden but I want him gone just the same. So please Mr. Dolan I'm begging you(even thought your not listening) fire Isiah. Bring in anybody else(except Chaney). Hell you can even bring in Layden. Just get rid of Isiah. By the way. Maybe we can pull off a trade, Nazr for Doleac??? Afterall he ran run faster and jump higher although he has not an ounce of real skill. Well I'm done ranting. I just had to let it all out.

 

[Henacy]

Well,as far as Doleac for Nazr goes they both are trash,realistically. Doleac got sent packing because he was injured alot at the start of the last season. And it seem like Zeke got rid of everyone that seem soft or injury prone ie Mcdyess,Van Horn. Its still strange because Narz hasnt been the healthiest player in the world in his career either, before he came to NY. But overall, I would say he probably slightly better fit then Doleac for the Knicks. Doleac is a mid range jumpshooting bigman, the Knicks already have that in Kurt Thomas, & Vin Baker. So having both your power forward & center standing in the mid-range area taking 15 footers all night isnt the best fit. Narz for the most part ,despite having no post up game, will stay under the basket & clean things up from time to time. He is a pretty decent rebounder given the minutes he plays. I agree Zeke hasnt answered the Knicks biggest problem at the bigman position, but keeping Doleac wouldnt have been much of a difference imo.

Now trading Van Horn for Tim Thomas is a whole another story,especally with the type of team the Knicks have ,now. I think Van Horn's shooting would be a big part of the Knicks system playing alongside Steph & Crawford who have the ablity to breakdown defenses.And get in the lanes to create. I think if Van Horn was still in NY, it would probably be a little bit easier to live with Allan Houston always being in & out of the lineup, cause you have Van Horn's perimeter shot to lean on. Also with Crawford & Steph having the ball in their hands so much it would be nice to have the type of third scorer Van is. Someone who doesnt always want to put the ball on the floor & do to much that isnt need with that type of current perimeter. Tim Thomas is the type of player who gonna want to consistently try to do to much during the times it isnt needed. And when it is needed for him to set up, he'll fold. I didnt like the tade when it happened. But you knew it was coming before it even happened...Van Horn isnt a Zeke type of player.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

Your absolutely right about the Van Horn thing. I cant agree with you about Doleac though. The numbers dont lie. Doleac is a better player then Nazr. Nazr's style might have helped the Knicks, too bad he sucks at it. Nazr and Tim Thomas are non factors. Some guys disappear in the fourth quarter(Van Horn has that reputation) and some guys dont show up at all(Tim Thomas). No way in the world is Nazr better then Doleac in ANY system. He's the kind of guy you give garbage minutes. Doleac isnt a star but he's solid. Not a defensive stopper but does play defense and a better rebounder it seems or at the very least no worse then Nazr. Having another center with a jumpshot cant hurt. That's preferable to a center who does nothing but give you two team fouls in the first quarter and does nothing else. The pick and roll with him and Marbury was effective and gave them something to run when they had nothing else. At this rate Vin Baker isnt going to get alot of minutes to use that mid ranged jumpshot. Having Van Horn and Doleac would have made a world of difference.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">when the Knicks had a productive starting small forward and center? I do. We had an 18 and 7 guy in Van Horn and a solid center in Michael Doleac. We traded them for what? Trash!. We have one of the most inconsistent players in the NBA in Tim Thomas(nevermind that he's overpaid) and the guy who was supposed to be the key to the trade Nazr Mohammed who's even worse then Tim Thomas. Doleac in one game against the Magic had 11pts, 9 rebounds 1 block and I think 1 assist. Nazr hasnt matched that in THREE games. If we still had Doleac and Van Horn we'd be looking alot better then we are now. Instead our center position is just sorry and whenever I think about it I break into tears. I want Isiah Thomas's resignation(even though I'm not going to get it). He's been lucky so far but I have the feeling that another Toronto episode is on the horizon. I appreciate the fact that he's brought excitement back to the Garden but I want him gone just the same. So please Mr. Dolan I'm begging you(even thought your not listening) fire Isiah. Bring in anybody else(except Chaney). Hell you can even bring in Layden. Just get rid of Isiah. By the way. Maybe we can pull off a trade, Nazr for Doleac??? Afterall he ran run faster and jump higher although he has not an ounce of real skill. Well I'm done ranting. I just had to let it all out.</div>
__________________

First of all I think you are forgetting the main reason why we were in the playoffs and why there is even hope for us. Get rid of Isaiah is one of the most absurd Knick related things I've ever heard! We would have never gotten Marbury had Layden still been here. We would still be watching Eisley and the rest of them. The main reason why the Knicks did not do aswell after the Van Horn trade is because Houston's outside shooting was greatly missed. And even if Isaiah made a bad trade all of those trades Layden did could not even compare!

Isaiah was going to go in a more uptempo style of play and Van horn is somewhat slow and unathletic. Second of all Van Horn was soft, had no heart and disappeared in the 4th. For example, that Bucks game when the Knicks were down by 26. Van Horn dropped like 18 in the 1st half and 2 in the last half. I know Tim Thomas can be inconsistent but when he does show something it is great and imo better than what Van Horn showed, especially the way he dunks on people. And as for Doleac, he was a shooting big man. That's about it, if you guarded his shot correctly he would be useless. There's no way he is better than Mohammed.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
First of all I think you are forgetting the main reason why we were in the playoffs and why there is even hope for us. Get rid of Isaiah is one of the most absurd Knick related things I've ever heard! We would have never gotten Marbury had Layden still been here. We would still be watching Eisley and the rest of them. The main reason why the Knicks did not do aswell after the Van Horn trade is because Houston's outside shooting was greatly missed. And even if Isaiah made a bad trade all of those trades Layden did could not even compare!

Isaiah was going to go in a more uptempo style of play and Van horn is somewhat slow and unathletic. Second of all Van Horn was soft, had no heart and disappeared in the 4th. For example, that Bucks game when the Knicks were down by 26. Van Horn dropped like 18 in the 1st half and 2 in the last half. I know Tim Thomas can be inconsistent but when he does show something it is great and imo better than what Van Horn showed, especially the way he dunks on people. And as for Doleac, he was a shooting big man. That's about it, if you guarded his shot correctly he would be useless. There's no way he is better than Mohammed.</div>

Ok maybe I was going a little overboard with wanting Layden but you get my point. All of Isiah's trades have been hit or miss. And with that Van Horn trade it was a definite miss. There is absolutely no excuse for that trade. By the way for everything we gave up for Marbury we could have improved the team more(I think). Dont forget Frank Williams was looking really good and we destroyed his development when we brought in Marbury.

Van Horn slow and athletic?Who cares? He knows how to play. Van Horn is soft? So? He knows how to play. Has no heart? And Tim Thomas does??? Disappeared in the fourth quarter perhaps but he had an impact on the game. Tim Thomas is a non factor. He doesnt even come to the game. If he did I didnt and wouldnt have noticed. Tim Thomas inconsistent? Nope. Van Horn is inconsistent(although with NY he was the most consistent he's ever been). Tim Thomas is a fugazy. When he does show up(ten games of the season) he makes a splash. Too bad we play 82 games and he does nothing for the other 72. As for Doleac...guarded his shot correctly and shut him down? Maybe. But do nothing to Nazr and you shut him down anyway. He does not produce. He does not know how to play. I know Knick fans try to make the trade look better then the disaster it actually was but I'm a realist. By the way the way Doleac played with Marbury you couldnt guard his shot. What has Nazr done that has warranted him to be better then Doleac??? Ive heard all the same stuff...he's faster, he's stronger, he can jump higher....but Doleac used it all better then him. Nazr is not a better rebounder then Doleac. He has no post up game and when Marbury passes him the ball he drops it out of bounds. So tell me how is Nazr better then Doleac?? Doleac has done in one game what Nazr couldnt(or barely could) do in three.

Your right Isiah Thomas brought us to where we are now. He brought excitement back to New York City. Made us matter once again. He's sort of like the St John of basketball in New York. Like St. John he gave us hope. And like St John I want his head on a stick.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok maybe I was going a little overboard with wanting Layden but you get my point. All of Isiah's trades have been hit or miss. And with that Van Horn trade it was a definite miss. There is absolutely no excuse for that trade. By the way for everything we gave up for Marbury we could have improved the team more(I think). Dont forget Frank Williams was looking really good and we destroyed his development when we brought in Marbury.

Van Horn slow and athletic?Who cares? He knows how to play. Van Horn is soft? So? He knows how to play. Has no heart? And Tim Thomas does??? Disappeared in the fourth quarter perhaps but he had an impact on the game. Tim Thomas is a non factor. He doesnt even come to the game. If he did I didnt and wouldnt have noticed. Tim Thomas inconsistent? Nope. Van Horn is inconsistent(although with NY he was the most consistent he's ever been). Tim Thomas is a fugazy. When he does show up(ten games of the season) he makes a splash. Too bad we play 82 games and he does nothing for the other 72. As for Doleac...guarded his shot correctly and shut him down? Maybe. But do nothing to Nazr and you shut him down anyway. He does not produce. He does not know how to play. I know Knick fans try to make the trade look better then the disaster it actually was but I'm a realist. By the way the way Doleac played with Marbury you couldnt guard his shot. What has Nazr done that has warranted him to be better then Doleac??? Ive heard all the same stuff...he's faster, he's stronger, he can jump higher....but Doleac used it all better then him. Nazr is not a better rebounder then Doleac. He has no post up game and when Marbury passes him the ball he drops it out of bounds. So tell me how is Nazr better then Doleac?? Doleac has done in one game what Nazr couldnt(or barely could) do in three.

Your right Isiah Thomas brought us to where we are now. He brought excitement back to New York City. Made us matter once again. He's sort of like the St John of basketball in New York. Like St. John he gave us hope. And like St John I want his head on a stick.</div>

In fact Tim Thomas has alot more heart, than Van Horn. When Van Horn came to NY he started out not too great especially his 3p%. However, as time progressed Van Horn adjusted and became somewhat of a good fit. Tim Thomas only played 25 games for NY. You're judging the trade way too soon. Nazr has better career averages than Doleac, and played better in New York than Doleac too. Nazr since coming to NY has averages of 9.1ppg and 7.7 rpg and 56fg%. Doleac had 5ppg and 4.1ppg and 44fg%. Nazr is quicker stronger and more aggressive than Doleac and due to the uptempo direction the Knicks are going in he will not be a good fit. And by the way Tim Thomas did have a major impact on the game. He dropped 18 to help Steph and the rest of the team rally back for the win.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

If you call talking smack to the media about the Nets and Kenyon Martin in particular and dont come back on the floor and play heart. Then I dont want ANY of the Knick players to have it if thats how you define heart. I'm judging the trade way too soon??? When do you want me to start judging the trade??? I knew it was a bad trade the moment I read it online. And Ive been proven right so far.

As for Nazr...have you seen the preseason games? How can you defend him after those pathetic showings? His performance boggles the mind. He cant even defend his own position from a rehabilitating drunk and Bruno Sundov. I've never even heard of this guy before and bless anyone who has. All Sundov has to do is pull down a few boards and he's ahead of Nazr. Nazr is about to get beat off the center position by our powerforward Kurt Thomas. That's how lousy he is. In four, count them FOUR games he has done N-O-T-H-I-N-G and you and everybody else knows that. If you count up all the stats for those four games he has something like 8 pts 5 rebounds and nothign else. He's just a body out there. Yes Nazr is quicker, stronger and more aggressive(dont know about that one) than Doleac but it clearly has not shown. Even in an uptempo game these two bums will do nothing. It's becoming rather obvious. Van Horn and Doleac were EFFICIENT with the time they were given. They made a difference. These two guys dont. Fact of the matter is if Doleac was still in New York he'd be starting at center. Van Horn and Marbury had instant chemistry when Marbury came. What's taking Tim so long? Tim Thomas did have a major impact on that game. Your absolutely right. Now how about all the other games in which we didnt even notice that he was playing. I think it's time we all confessed the trade was not just bad but a nightmare.

 

[Beat]

Doleac is not a solid center hes trash and his midrange game isnt that great either i wouldnt even call it good not even ok. You compare Nazi to Doleac based on the one game u saw where he had 11 points and 9 rebounds? What about all the other games hes played in? Doleac was soft and the only reason he got play time in New York is because they didnt have any other center.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
If you call talking smack to the media about the Nets and Kenyon Martin in particular and dont come back on the floor and play heart. Then I dont want ANY of the Knick players to have it if thats how you define heart. I'm judging the trade way too soon??? When do you want me to start judging the trade??? I knew it was a bad trade the moment I read it online. And Ive been proven right so far.

As for Nazr...have you seen the preseason games? How can you defend him after those pathetic showings? His performance boggles the mind. He cant even defend his own position from a rehabilitating drunk and Bruno Sundov. I've never even heard of this guy before and bless anyone who has. All Sundov has to do is pull down a few boards and he's ahead of Nazr. Nazr is about to get beat off the center position by our powerforward Kurt Thomas. That's how lousy he is. In four, count them FOUR games he has done N-O-T-H-I-N-G and you and everybody else knows that. If you count up all the stats for those four games he has something like 8 pts 5 rebounds and nothign else. He's just a body out there. Yes Nazr is quicker, stronger and more aggressive(dont know about that one) than Doleac but it clearly has not shown. Even in an uptempo game these two bums will do nothing. It's becoming rather obvious. Van Horn and Doleac were EFFICIENT with the time they were given. They made a difference. These two guys dont. Fact of the matter is if Doleac was still in New York he'd be starting at center. Van Horn and Marbury had instant chemistry when Marbury came. What's taking Tim so long? Tim Thomas did have a major impact on that game. Your absolutely right. Now how about all the other games in which we didnt even notice that he was playing. I think it's time we all confessed the trade was not just bad but a nightmare.</div>
__________________

Heart imo is when you play with desire and don't disappear in the 4th! There have been many games where Tim has stepped up his game to beat teams. There is a reason why Milwaukee is Keith's 3rd team in less than 3 seasons. The trade should be judged when Thomas plays as many games as Steph played with Keith. Tim and Nazr with a training camp will make a ton of difference. The reason why Van Horn and Marbury bonded more quickly is because they played with each other in New Jersey. And Doleac given the minutes has never been as productive as Mohammed.

Besides preseason is not a significant sign of what is going to occur in the season because no players get their right minutes and some probably don't care. San Antonio right now is 0-3, and Sacremento is 1-4. Does this mean that because that these teams are having a bad preason they are going to have a bad season? Or because players such as VC, and Baron Davis are averaging 13 and 14ppg it will reflect their season?

 

[Tribute to H2O]

In other words Nazr has done nothing so far. Nazr more productive than Doleac??? Im sorry but I have to ask...do you even watch the Knicks play Bobby? Because if you have then you'd agree with me and say that Nazr has done nothing, nada, zilch. Obviously you dont like Doleac which is fine. But anybody who has seen Doleac and Nazr play would say Doleac is more efficient with the time he's given. Are you telling me that Nazr cannot put up the same numbers in three games of action when he's fighting for a starting position??? Efficiency is what's important. Nazr is not efficent with the time he's given. He brings nothing to the table that Doleac doesnt bring. He cant even hold onto the ball. He's always dropping it out of bounds or something stupid like that. We'll see how Nazr does this season. And you'll see how right I am. By the way there are intanglibles that have to be taken into consideration such as the pick and roll play Marbury and Doleac ran. That was quite effective when the Knicks had nothing else going for them. Doleac could make his opposing center at least play defense and put him around the perimeter. Nazr is USELESS.

Again I have to say Tim Thomas is usually a non factor and most people would agree. If I could trade him for Wally I would. Again Van Horn might have disappeared in the fourth(or maybe Marbury decided to shoot the ball more instead of dishing it) but Tim Thomas doesnt play. You wouldnt notice if he was in the game or not. He's in the system he wants and he's doing nothing with it. Preseason is used to take a look at rookies and allow players to prove they deserve to start. Nazr is probably going to lose his starting job to our starting powerforward. If Isiah is smart he'll have Vin Baker play back up Kurt at center and JYD as back up for Sweetney and put Nazr on the injured list. At least Bruno Sundov's jumpshot(he has three point range) will keep opposing big men out of the paint so Marbury and Crawford can do their stuff. Although Bruno wont be able to defend against physical centers. Then again neither can Nazr. If Isiah could he'd sell his soul to reverse that trade because unlike his gamble with Marbury it didnt pay off.

 

[Knicks Analyst]

Tribute To H20, I really like most of your posts, this is no exception. Keep up this great posting.


(Had to say that)


p.s. Let it all out man, I know the feeling.

 

[Mr. J]

Doleac could only shoot as I said. One of the centers main job is to rebound. Doleac hung around the perimeter too much. Which is why I think we were one of the worst rebounding teams. Doleac has never grabbed more than 13 rebounds in his career. I too would trade TT for Wally but that's not the point. The point is Doleac could only shoot and is way less productive than Mohammed. Even if Mohammed is not a starter there is no way Doleac would be either. Kurt Thomas is our shooting big man we don't really need another

 

[Knicks Analyst]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> Kurt Thomas is our shooting big man we don't really need another</div>
Two strong outside threats up front can be deadly later in the game. Although, not essential it is very valuable to have. That being said, for the record let me say that although Doleac isn't a great or good player, he's solid. He doesn't deserve rips. He is a strong player off the bench.

 

[Mr. J]

Mohammed in New York 03-04 season:
ppg 9.1
rpg 7.7
apg .5
spg 1.22
fg: 56.3
ft: 52.5
to 1.52
mpg: 24.9

Doleac in New York 03-04 season:
ppg: 5.0
rpg: 4.1
apg: .7
spg: .37
ft: 86.7
to: .80
fg: 44.4
mpg:14.9

According to these stats Mohammed is better than Doleac

 

[Knicks Analyst]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Mohammed in New York 03-04 season:
ppg 9.1
rpg 7.7
apg .5
spg 1.22
fg: 56.3
ft: 52.5
to 1.52
mpg: 24.9

Doleac in New York 03-04 season:
ppg: 5.0
rpg: 4.1
apg: .7
spg: .37
ft: 86.7
to: .80
fg: 44.4
mpg:14.9

According to these stats Mohammed is better than Doleac</div>

I rest my case.

(They are both 3rd/4th rate, though. Neither of them are any good)

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I rest my case.

(They are both 3rd/4th rate, though. Neither of them are any good)

</div>

Mohammed;s #'s are better than Doleac. Mohammed is also more solid than Doleac.

 

[Knicks Analyst]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Mohammed;s #'s are better than Doleac. Mohammed is also more solid than Doleac.</div>When you say 'solid' are you talking about his build or his game?

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Tribute To H20, I really like most of your posts, this is no exception. Keep up this great posting.


(Had to say that)


p.s. Let it all out man, I know the feeling.</div>

I'll co-sign, that, I really like debating & discussing with that Cat. But with that being said I still think he is a little off with the Doleac/Nazr. I wouldnt want both Kurt Thomas & Micheal Doleac standing in the mid-range area, shooting 15 footers. And thats basically, what would happen if Doleac was still in NY. And starting at the Center. Narz isnt the great starting Center by any stretch of the imagination but I would take 6 rebs a game from a starting Center who wont play more then 20 minutes most nights.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When you say 'solid' are you talking about his build or his game?</div>

His game

 

[Knicks Analyst]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">His game</div>He is better than Doleac, but not for the money he is making. One cannot deny that.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

Having two shooting big men is a great thing to have. Kurt Thomas is a big man with a jumpshot but we cant have him hanging out on the perimeter he's our best(or second) best rebounder. Many times the Knicks went with Doleac and Kurt down the stretch because it was effective.

Nazr is in no way shape or form better than Doleac. Those numbers you put up mrj18 are a testament to how bad the Knick shooting was. The shooting was so bad without Van Horn and Doleac even Nazr could get some rebounds. Nazr played almost a full quarter more than Doleac there really should be a bigger disparity in points and rebounds. Nazr is simply a bad rebounder which is surprising since all he does is hang around the basket and wait for someone to miss. He looks completely lost when he's out on the floor. Like he's some guy who wandered off the street and into a basketball game. Like I said before there are things that dont appear in the box score. Setting picks and bringing the opposing shot blocker out of the paint doesnt show up. Even if your right(which believe me you arent) and Nazr is better than Doleac, Doleac is still more valuable to the Knicks. In the end it's not the players who matter its the team. Doleac gave the Knicks versatility. He gave them options. He didnt drop the ball out of bounds and didnt commit stupid fouls. I would say he was a better on ball defender but I'll leave that alone. He also brought something else to the table in chemistry. Nazr isnt a good fit for this team no matter how fast or strong he is. This is basketball not track and field. All he will do for the Knicks is hang around the basket, do nothing and give the opposing center nothing to worry about. Every now and then he'll have a good game(and the Knicks will probably have lost that game since they were probably shooting badly) and you'll come and tell me he's better than Doleac. I've heard all the same arguments before about that Van Horn and Doleac trade. And although athleticism is important the Olympics have shown us that skill is much better and will always beat out athleticism. These two guys we have now dont have skill. While some people think Tim Thomas dunking on people is a beautiful thing I think Van Horn shooting a three pointer is even sexier. Oh well. We'll see what the season bring and if right(I usually am) or wrong(not likely).

 

[Ming637]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Tribute to H2O:</div><div class="quote_post">Having two shooting big men is a great thing to have. Kurt Thomas is a big man with a jumpshot but we cant have him hanging out on the perimeter he's our best(or second) best rebounder. Many times the Knicks went with Doleac and Kurt down the stretch because it was effective.

Nazr is in no way shape or form better than Doleac. Those numbers you put up mrj18 are a testament to how bad the Knick shooting was. The shooting was so bad without Van Horn and Doleac even Nazr could get some rebounds. Nazr played almost a full quarter more than Doleac there really should be a bigger disparity in points and rebounds. Nazr is simply a bad rebounder which is surprising since all he does is hang around the basket and wait for someone to miss. He looks completely lost when he's out on the floor. Like he's some guy who wandered off the street and into a basketball game. Like I said before there are things that dont appear in the box score. Setting picks and bringing the opposing shot blocker out of the paint doesnt show up. Even if your right(which believe me you arent) and Nazr is better than Doleac, Doleac is still more valuable to the Knicks. In the end it's not the players who matter its the team. Doleac gave the Knicks versatility. He gave them options. He didnt drop the ball out of bounds and didnt commit stupid fouls. I would say he was a better on ball defender but I'll leave that alone. He also brought something else to the table in chemistry. Nazr isnt a good fit for this team no matter how fast or strong he is. This is basketball not track and field. All he will do for the Knicks is hang around the basket, do nothing and give the opposing center nothing to worry about. Every now and then he'll have a good game(and the Knicks will probably have lost that game since they were probably shooting badly) and you'll come and tell me he's better than Doleac. I've heard all the same arguments before about that Van Horn and Doleac trade. And although athleticism is important the Olympics have shown us that skill is much better and will always beat out athleticism. These two guys we have now dont have skill. While some people think Tim Thomas dunking on people is a beautiful thing I think Van Horn shooting a three pointer is even sexier. Oh well. We'll see what the season bring and if right(I usually am) or wrong(not likely).</div>


He owned yall right there, lol. The Knicks board is lucky to have you here.

 

[iversonfan3]

Are you seriously saying doleac is better than Nazr? all doleac can do is shoot and hes soft, and nazi can rebound. Anyway i dont no that much about those two but from the games i've watched, Nazr is def better than doleac.as for kvh and thomas I agree. kvh is way better than thomas, but i also agree that kvh plays with no heart and dissapears in the 4th. wen he was in philly, the last game of the 02-03 season he had 6 points against the pistons in the game 6 of the semi finals. 6 POINTS!!!AND HES THE SECOND LEADING SCORER. But still i agree with u hes def better than Tim Thomas.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Having two shooting big men is a great thing to have. Kurt Thomas is a big man with a jumpshot but we cant have him hanging out on the perimeter he's our best(or second) best rebounder. Many times the Knicks went with Doleac and Kurt down the stretch because it was effective.

Nazr is in no way shape or form better than Doleac. Those numbers you put up mrj18 are a testament to how bad the Knick shooting was. The shooting was so bad without Van Horn and Doleac even Nazr could get some rebounds. Nazr played almost a full quarter more than Doleac there really should be a bigger disparity in points and rebounds. Nazr is simply a bad rebounder which is surprising since all he does is hang around the basket and wait for someone to miss. He looks completely lost when he's out on the floor. Like he's some guy who wandered off the street and into a basketball game. Like I said before there are things that dont appear in the box score. Setting picks and bringing the opposing shot blocker out of the paint doesnt show up. Even if your right(which believe me you arent) and Nazr is better than Doleac, Doleac is still more valuable to the Knicks. In the end it's not the players who matter its the team. Doleac gave the Knicks versatility. He gave them options. He didnt drop the ball out of bounds and didnt commit stupid fouls. I would say he was a better on ball defender but I'll leave that alone. He also brought something else to the table in chemistry. Nazr isnt a good fit for this team no matter how fast or strong he is. This is basketball not track and field. All he will do for the Knicks is hang around the basket, do nothing and give the opposing center nothing to worry about. Every now and then he'll have a good game(and the Knicks will probably have lost that game since they were probably shooting badly) and you'll come and tell me he's better than Doleac. I've heard all the same arguments before about that Van Horn and Doleac trade. And although athleticism is important the Olympics have shown us that skill is much better and will always beat out athleticism. These two guys we have now dont have skill. While some people think Tim Thomas dunking on people is a beautiful thing I think Van Horn shooting a three pointer is even sexier. Oh well. We'll see what the season bring and if right(I usually am) or wrong(not likely).</div>

We can't forget Doleac has had been with the Knicks longer than 25 games! And after the Van Horn trade Allan Houston was injured for almost the rest of the season. That is the main reason why the shooting was not very good. Doleac is just a shooting big man. And as you said earlier that you never heard of him before we got him. I'm sure many people have not heard of Michael Doleac. There is a reason why Mohammed gets more minutes than Doleac because he has more skill than him. Mohammed is turnover prone because he does more than catch the ball and shoot it. Sure he can be lazy and do some dumb things once and awhile but he is much better than Doleac. Who knows this trade might be a complete disaster but untill the regular season starts and we have a healthy Houston we can judge the trade. The real "Remember..." is when we had Sprewell instead of Van Horn.

 

[shankyoass]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Originally Posted by mrj18
Mohammed in New York 03-04 season:
ppg 9.1
rpg 7.7
apg .5
spg 1.22
fg: 56.3
ft: 52.5
to 1.52
mpg: 24.9
Doleac in New York 03-04 season:
ppg: 5.0
rpg: 4.1
apg: .7
spg: .37
ft: 86.7
to: .80
fg: 44.4
mpg:14.9

According to these stats Mohammed is better than Doleac</div>

If I could have your attention. Everyone, please look at the Minutes Per Game of both these players. Mohammed plays almost double the time Doleac plays. If Doleac plays as many minutes as Mohammed, he would average something along the lines of:

PPG: 10.0
RPG: 8.2
APG: 1.4
SPG: .74
FG%: 44.4
FT%: 86.7
TO: 1.60

compared to Mohammed's

PPG: 9.1
RPG: 7.7
APG: .5
SPG: 1.22
FG%: 56.3
FT%: 52.5
TO: 1.52

If you look at things this way, these two players are pretty simmilar. Now if you think about it, free-throw shooting is a pretty important part of the game isnt it? If a team doesn't hit their free-throws (which is pretty much free or close to it for any decent shooter) then their chanced to win are a lot slimmer. Mohammed can't shoot free-throws. If you think free-throws are not a factor, you are terribily misguided my friend. If I can bring you all back to two years ago in the playoffs. Dallas vs Sacramento. I forget which game it was, but that game, Dallas was fouled 50 times. They hit 49 of their FT's. They won by only a few points. Now if Mohammed shot 50 FTs, and hit 26 (approx 52%) of them, they would have 24 points less. That would have cost the team the game. Now if Doleac shot, he would hit 43 (approx 86%). Sure Doleac's FG% is lower than Mohammed's, but Mohammed took less shots. 33 less shots to be exact. Doleac attempted 225 shots while Mohammed attempted 192 shots. Doleac also shoots from the perimeter while Mohammed gets mostly dunks, layups, putbacks, etc.

I'm just proving my point that Mohammed IS NOT better than Doleac.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If I could have your attention. Everyone, please look at the Minutes Per Game of both these players. Mohammed plays almost double the time Doleac plays. If Doleac plays as many minutes as Mohammed, he would average something along the lines of:

PPG: 10.0
RPG: 8.2
APG: 1.4
SPG: .74
FG%: 44.4
FT%: 86.7
TO: 1.60</div>

You are just doubling his numbers. Doleac played 10 not 12 less minutes than Mohammed. Also you have to take stamina into consideration. And my point is Doleac is not good enough to recieve more than his usual 15 minutes per game. I know this is not a great example but even some video games like 2k5 rate Doleac 12 points less than Mohammed. I turn the question back to you. What makes Doleac better than Mohammed other than his shooting.

 

[nkwu]

^that's all theoretical(SP?). You also forget, that there is a reaosn to why Mohammed plays more minutes than Doleac? The coach knows players the best and he plays the players(most of the time) based on what they can do for the team. If Doleac was better, would he not get more minutes?

 

[Tribute to H2O]

No mrj18. Houston was out before the Van Horn trade. But the Knicks were still doing well. Until after Isiah Thomas decided that he should try to leave his mark on the Knicks and made that joke you call a trade. I'm embarassed as a Knick fan that he could be stupid enough to make that trade. Doleac is nothing but a big man with a jumpshot??? In that case Nazr is simply nothing. Because like I said the only way he gets his rebounds and points is if the Knicks are shooting really badly. And if the Knicks are shooting that badly their probably losing by about 20 pts. You have not said what Nazr brings to the table that Doleac doesnt. Do you know why? Because there is nothing. And everyone knows that. Iverson says Nazr is definetely a better defender than Doleac??? Mind watching a few Knicks games? I'm afraid your letting the fact that he's bigger and more built then Doleac cloud your judgement. Just watch how well he defends his man and compare it to Doleac when you see him play. You'll have to do this for awhile if your interested and you'll see what I mean. Picking up two cheap fouls in 3 minutes while letting your man get an and 1 isnt good defense. At least it wasnt last time I checked. Again this heart thing... I dont see how Tim Thomas has more heart than Van Horn. The man got fouled, whined to the media, called out Kenyon and never played. Then he starts talking again!!! The one time he could have made me say the trade wasnt the joke it really was and be a tough guy...he made himself look like a fugazy. Doleac was with Marbury for as long as Nazr's been with him so why has Nazr been so pathetic especially recently when he's fighting for HIS starting position. By the way jtam101 is right about their post. Nazr have more skill than Doleac?????????????? Isiah tried to pawn Nazr off to Golden State for Dampier. If that trade had gone down it wouldnt have been a steal....it would have been "highway robbery". The GM wasnt a sucker he went with a package that had Najera as a center piece. Najera!!!. Shows you how highly thought of Nazr is. Then again Najera hustles alot and tries. You want heart Najera is your man. Not Tim Thomas. I said I never heard of Bruno Sundov before and Nazr better watch out! If he's not careful Sundov might actually pull down a few rebounds and take away his job! Nazr got more minutes because we had no other centers to choose from and to try to work him into the Knick system. Since that has been a dismal failure(if you dont believe me read the paper) he wont be getting those minutes anymore. The best we can do with our center position now is start Kurt at center have Baker back him up and start Sweetney and have JYD back him up. Let Sundov be our third string center and put him Nazr on the Injured List so he can do what he does best...yes you guessed it....nothing.

 

[Mr. J]

^Houston's absence had just begun and was not felt untill after the all star break when the Knicks started to play other teams. I would trade Nazr for Damp any day too, but the fact of the matter is he is better than Doleac. He rebounds better, scores better and is faster, more aggressive, stronger and more athletic than Doleac. We need that aggresiveness back in the paint that Doleac never had. When was the last time Doleac dunked? When was the last time Doleac had 20pts, and 18 rebs? That's right never. He never even got the minutes to prove it because he's not good enough.

Tim Thomas was injured missing the series he was looking forward to playing way before it even started. When he was cutting to the basket preparing to serve a monster facial to Collins he gave him a cheap shot. He was not even attempting to swipe the ball he hacked him across the back causing Tim to miss the series. This affected the series outcome. And then Martin said "It's not like anyone got shot or anything." That is why Tim was so angry. I think he should have let it go but I think it will bring some positive fire to the court especially when he plays the Nuggets. Also let's not forget that Tim Thomas has been averaging career highs in most of his stats since coming to NY.

 

[Tribute to H2O]

No sir. I remember those days clearly. I remember because I was shocked at how well the Knicks were doing without him. Houston had been out for a good while and then after the trade the Knicks starting doing badly. We both know it's because of the trade the Knicks starting doing badly. Just because Nazr does most of his nothing in the paint does not mean he's aggressive. Being aggressive is getting the ball and not being afraid to do something with it. Your right about the Knicks needing aggressiveness in the paint. But Nazr isnt the guy you want. He's dazed and confused out there on the court. He's so docile out there. I wonder if he's even awake. Who really cares about dunking??? Really now. I'm tired of this dunking nonsense. I want to see incredible dunks I'll pop in a tape of a slam dunk contest. I want wins not highlight reels. Your right about Doleac never having 20 pts and 18 rebounds. When was the last time Nazr made his prescence felt in a game in which the Knicks werent losing badly? Thats right. Never. As for his minutes...dont worry he'll probably be getting the garbage minutes he deserves if he keeps up the lousy play like I know he will. Scores better? Not if the Knicks are winning(cause that would mean the Knicks are shooting well). Again the more athletic nonsense...he certainly can run faster than Doleac. I wish he would just run and keep on running out of the Knickbocker's life. Being able to produce is more important than athleticism. He has no post up game and is a bad rebounder. He's about as useful on the offensive end as Ben Wallace as a rookie and isnt a good defender either. Now the whole well if he didnt get the minutes then he musnt have been good argument. Maybe if had gotten the minutes he would have been much better but now we'll never know. I dont have alot of faith in Lenny Wilkens. The man did afterall start Shandon Anderson over Penny Hardaway. Nazr Mohammed is not worth his pay grade and he never will be. He will not start he will get the same amount if not less minutes that Doleac got and he will do of course nothing while he's in the game because that is what nothings do.

Tim Thomas did a blatant walk and that was a dirty foul. I have no problem with a player being injured and not being able to play. I have a problem when someone talks alot and does nothing about it. I'm sorry to say it did not affect the series outcome. Because Tim Thomas is a nonfactor. Tim Thomas will not have a break out year despite our brand new uptempo game. He is satisfied with that level he's at now so he's done. No better and probably no worse. He isnt worth his pay grade either. But until we find a couple of suckers to take them off our hands were stuck with them.