Rose and Marshall

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Isiah Thomas' month-long pursuit of Donyell Marshall and Jalen Rose has finally reached a point where the Knicks and Raptors are discussing a deal that would send Kurt Thomas and Penny Hardaway to Toronto. According to a league source, Thomas and Rob Babcock, the Raptors general manager, exchanged phone calls yesterday in an attempt to hammer out a deal that would represent Thomas' first major roster move since he acquired Jamal Crawford from the Bulls in August.
</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"The under-rated Marshall, who has even played center for Toronto this season, is the player who interests Thomas most. However, Rose is also a proven scorer, averaging 14.9 points in 28.9 minutes. He also has a reputation of being a disruptive presence in the locker room, which is why Indiana, with Thomas as its coach, traded Rose three years ago." New York Daily News</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Marshall, who is also coveted by Minnesota, is in the final year of his contract that will pay him $5 million. Marshall's agent, Andy Miller, refused to comment yesterday when asked about the possibility of the UConn product being traded to New York.</div>
New York Daily News
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">According to various league sources, Knicks president Isiah Thomas is working diligently to remake his team with current Raptors. One rumour making the rounds last night ? and it's unlikely that Rose hasn't heard it ? had him going to the Knicks for Penny Hardaway. Another, according to another source close to the situation, had the Knicks after Marshall. The source said talks have included discussions of a three-way trade among Toronto, New York and Philadelphia with Marshall and Rose as the principals leaving the Raptors. "Isiah wants (Marshall) more right now," the source said.</div>
Toronto Star
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Toronto Star is reporting that Knicks president Isiah Thomas, who is very keen on acquiring Marshall, has spoken with his agent in the past few days to determine what the player, who will become a free agent after the season, is looking for in the future. The 6-9 Marshall, who shot 4-for-4 from beyond the 3-point line in the fourth quarter and was 6-for-8 long range in his previous game Monday, expressed interest in playing for the Knicks one day.</div>
Newark Star-Ledger
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<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
For instance, when asked before the game what uniform he preferred to wear for Wednesday's eventual 98-81 Raptors' victory over the Knicks, he joked, "Tim Thomas [has] got it." So he's fine with the trade talk and says he'd also have no problem playing for Knicks president Isiah Thomas, the coach in Indiana when the Pacers traded him away and with whom his relationship was reportedly strained. "A lot of people don't know that our relationship goes back to when I was a youngster," Rose said. "I was going up to his camps to play and things of that nature. At the end of the day, he wasn't the president or the GM in Indiana, so technically he wasn't the guy that ultimately made the decision whether I was to stay or whether I was to leave.</div>
Bergen Record
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Sorry for it being so long up there. I just wanted to give all the sources I found although it's probably not as much as the rest of you guys. Anyway, we have been hearing this for a long time now. The Raptors and Knicks have been talking for quite a bit now. First with in an attempt to get Vince Carter, and now they seem to be after Jalen Rose and Donyell Marshall. I can see Isiah Thomas using Rose as a pawn to get Carter, but now he wants Rose alone.

Many of us have already analyzed Rose many times in precious scenarios, but I will just briefly restate my thoughts on him. Rose will be able to help us at the SF spot. That is to be expected because we are not getting anything from that posistion, except when Ariza, or JYD is in the game. TT barely ever produces, and Lenny for some reason feeks obligated to keep him in. But let's not forget this is about Rose and not Wilkens. Jalen Rose can give us some scoring that we have lacked due to all of our recent injuries. He is also versatile as well which is one of the main reasons I like him. He can play the 1, 2, or 3 Jalen Rose which will give us even more depth as a team. He does have great abilities but, Jalen Rose is not the answer to all of our problems though. He still is a defensive liability, he also has an attitude that one would consider questionable. Also he is old at age 33 (in 10 days) and his best years are definitely behind him. Rose is still a good player and listening to me, you might think that I would want him however, I'm saying no thanks.

Normally I wouldn't really mind getting Jalen, but I don't want another horrible, almost untradeable, contract to someone that doesn't deserve it. Rose still has two more years remaining while Hardaway only has one. In the summer, the Knicks can make a great move to a team who is looking to free up cap space. Maybe they could get a legit draft pick or player or something. Teams these days love expiring contracts especially big ones, so I think Isiah Thomas should trade Hardaway's contract in the summer where he has more options, and more time to make the best decision for the team. Also our favorite TT's contract his just like Hardaway's so a possible trade with both of them will give us some pretty good results. In a rare situation where no one wants any of them we just let them expire, and free a ton of cap room.

Now on to Mr. Marshall. I love this guy. He is definitely one of the most underrated players in the game. He is versatile as well and able to play both the SF and PF. Also he is very consistent just like Kurt Thomas, I heard he was also a good defender as well. I don't think he is as good as Kurt Thomas defensively but offensively I believe he is. He has a good midrange jumpshot, but he can also hit the 3 very well too. I'm sure we all remember yesterday. He shoots a very good 39% from behind the arc. We can definitely use this boost especially with a rehabbing Houston and Crawford. With all the attention Marbury receives on a regular basis, Marshall will really be able to make them pay, so Kurt Thomas' presence wont be missed too much. So far he is doing pretty well averaging 10.8ppg 6.8rpg in only 24.3mpg. Toronto has Bosh, so he is not getting any more minutes. We however, will be able to use him more at that PF position or even SF position. I would definitely not mind if Donyell Marshall came over to New York. He's not the flashiest player around, but he will definitely be able to produce. That is what we need, and nothing else.

This trade will make us a better team, but I am confused because it doesn't look future proof. I think Isiah's first priority is a new coach, and second new players. We have many players who have these contracts and we don't need any other ones. I think Isiah feels it is necessary for a team to always be good, but he doesn't look at the future. This was said how many times? I wish it would not happen. The only thing I wont mind is fine Isiah gets Marshall however, taking on Rose's contract is rediculous in my opinion. That performance I think is what drew more interest in him. Let's see what happens guys. What do you guys feel about this possible trade?

 

[P.A.P.]

You guys aren't getting 'Yell unless you give us Nazr Mohammed or Sweetney, which is not going to happen.

Why give up 1 bad contract for 2? Plus the Raps are trading away the 2 best players in the deal. Makes no sense. I mean Babcock isn't really smart, but he ain't dumb.

 

[Henacy]

hmmm...I dont know this is actually an interesting one. I use to have alot of love for Jalen Rose but it has faded over the years. All he does is complain and he hasnt lived up to the potential I figured he would be from his play as a member of the fab 5. And even his early days after he came from Denver to Indy. But anyway this trade can either make the Knicks alot better or alot worst espcially from chemstry stand points.

You are adding another player in Rose, who needs the ball in his hands consistently to be effective, so your adding that to Marbury & Crawford, who both need the same thing. You add to an already abundance of wing players Crawford, Tim Thomas, Trevor Ariza, Allan Houston and add in Rose. That is 5 guys competing for minutes at 2 spots. Zeke better have another deal in the works to get rid of some of the baggage they are going to have on the wing. Or the Knicks are going to be filled with guys complaining alot more then Penny was doing. Crawford and Rose on the floor together again, I guess it will be going back to the terrible shot selection days' of the '02 Bulls.

And Mashall is a nice player. But I would much rather have Kurt Thomas over him. Thomas is a much better on-ball post defender then Marshall. And yea, Kurt takes alot of 15 footers all night. But Marshall takes 24-25 footers all night. Dont get me wrong Marshall would be a nice frontcourt addition but I dont see how giving up Kurt for him makes the Knicks better. At best they would be getting equal value. I think the key to that maybe that Marshall contract either ends this year or next cause that is the only plus I can see when chosing between Marshall & Kurt.

Anyway, we'll see where this goes, could just be another New York rumor.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">You guys aren't getting 'Yell unless you give us Nazr Mohammed or Sweetney, which is not going to happen.

Why give up 1 bad contract for 2? Plus the Raps are trading away the 2 best players in the deal. Makes no sense. I mean Babcock isn't really smart, but he ain't dumb.</div>
I disagree. Donyell is not worth Mohammed or especially Sweetney. Mohammed is getting all-star consideration and Sweetney is a nice youn star in the making. Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh. Maybe he isn't as skilled but, the potential and the talent is there.

Kurt Thomas is a good pick up. The only thing that you would really be losing with Donyell Marshall is the 3. Kurt Thomas is very capabel of hitting that midrange jumper very well and he is a better defender so the trade is about even. The only thing I see different is Marshall's contract is expiring. Penny is a good player and just as versatile as Rose. Rose is still the better player, but Penny's contract will give you tons of cap room in the near future.

Jalen's contract is rediculous in my opinion. Why give up 1 year for 2? Isiah isn't really smart, but he ain't dumb.

 

[02civic]

^ the marshall contract ends this year. Thats a huge deal and i think it makes 'Yell even more valuable than Kurt Thomas. Thomas is 33 this year and he's got 4 years left on his contract ranging from 6-8 million a season. So he'll be 37 years old when he's getting 8 million for his last year of play. no thanks
Rose is a definate upgrade over Penny in all ways. Sure he's got an extra year on his contract, but with a Knicks payroll of 103 million a year NY wont be able to get any decent free agents until Houstons contracts up. Penny and Tim Thomas leaving, and not signing any new players or rookie contracts will save you nearly 30 million approximately. Which STILL leaves NY at about 73 million bucks....way over the salary cap. This trade would be good for you since it would make you better in the time till Houstons contract expires as well as allowing 'Yell's to expire and saving some money now as opposed to later.
I dont see how it works for the Raptors though. Which is why i wouldnt take it even if a draft pick was involved.

 

[Premium]

this trade just makes no sense for the raps. its a bad move for the knicks imo as well. i think donyell could help your team for sure...but jalen certainly isnt what you need at this point. he demands touches...with crawford and starbury on the court...adding another offensive player just doesnt seem like the right mix at all. what you guys need is a solid role player at the 3 spot, a-la bruce bowen or tayshaun prince. someone who can play D and hit open shots to help spread the floor. jalen rose is NOT what you guys need

and why would the raps trade one bad contract for two? i really cant see babs even considering a deal with the NYK's unless nazr was involved somehow. and i dont see that happening...so it must be more NY media rhetoric

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Donyell is not worth Mohammed or especially Sweetney. Mohammed is getting all-star consideration and Sweetney is a nice youn star in the making. Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh. Maybe he isn't as skilled but, the potential and the talent is there. </div>

I couldnt see the Knicks giving up Sweetney or Mohammed. Not becuase they're better but because Sweetney's a project and Mohammad is a position you guys arent strong in. (as a matter of fact few teams are). Mohammad is not a great player..true he'll be considered for an all-star spot(i dont think he'll get it) but thats misleading since his numbers are only like 12 and 9 or something like that. Hardly great, but its more than some teams are getting from there center.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kurt Thomas is a good pick up. The only thing that you would really be losing with Donyell Marshall is the 3. Kurt Thomas is very capabel of hitting that midrange jumper very well and he is a better defender so the trade is about even. The only thing I see different is Marshall's contract is expiring. Penny is a good player and just as versatile as Rose. Rose is still the better player, but Penny's contract will give you tons of cap room in the near future. </div>

Thing is the only thing Kurt is better than Marshall at is on ball post defense. He's not as good a shooter, though he aint bad. EDIT: changed my mind, they're about even in rebounds, maybe a slight advantage to 'Yell
And Kurt is 33 with 4 years left. 37 years old making 8 mill sounds like a Knick player alright.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Jalen's contract is rediculous in my opinion. Why give up 1 year for 2? Isiah isn't really smart, but he ain't dumb.</div>

Why 1 year for 2? Like i said above...cause you're also getting rid of 4. So i guess thats 4+1 for 2..or wait....umm....4 squared...no...um...four with 1st compounded by 2....ok i've gone cross eyed.
His contract is rediculous. In terms of money per year its almost as ridiculous as Houstons, TT, and Pennies...but not quite as bad. An extra year true. But see the above post for info as to why an extra year doesnt hurt the Knicks like you think it would. That said he isnt the player you need. But overall i think the trade would be to strongly in your favour. And i disagree. Isiah is dumb.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Donyell is not worth Mohammed or especially Sweetney. Mohammed is getting all-star consideration and Sweetney is a nice youn star in the making. Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh. Maybe he isn't as skilled but, the potential and the talent is there. </div>

Disagree about what? I said that you guys weren't getting Donyell unless you gave up Mohammed or Sweetney...and I said that's not going to happen, implying that Isiah Thomas won't trade two key parts of his team and future for someone who might leave after this year. I never said anything about him being better than them or whatever.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas is a good pick up. The only thing that you would really be losing with Donyell Marshall is the 3. Kurt Thomas is very capabel of hitting that midrange jumper very well and he is a better defender so the trade is about even. The only thing I see different is Marshall's contract is expiring. Penny is a good player and just as versatile as Rose. Rose is still the better player, but Penny's contract will give you tons of cap room in the near future.</div>

Kurt Thomas, could be a good pickup yes...But not for the Raptors. He has a a awful contract which Isiah gave him, and he's not that good of a rebounder. His contract is worse than Jalens contract IMO, especially in the last couple of years when he's in his late 30's getting 8, 9 million and 10. No inside game either.

Donyell Marshall extends the offense because he has some skill inside, and he's a very good 3 point shooter. Also, he's a better 3 point shooter than Kurt is a mid-range shooter. He's also a better rebounder, he's as good as a rebounder as Nazr, if not better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Jalen's contract is rediculous in my opinion. Why give up 1 year for 2? Isiah isn't really smart, but he ain't dumb.</div>

You're not the only one that has that opinion. However, Penny will give us limited production, considering that we're pretty muched stacked at the 2 and 3 (we're going to get one in the draft as well), so essentially, we will pay him 15 million to spend half the season on the IR, and the other half on the bench and scoring 2 PPG a game (for 40 games) for us.

I'd much rather have Jalens production and his contract than Penny's limited production, and his contract. You might see it a different way, because you are already stacked with bad contracts, and getting another one will hurt you even more.

If the Raps were in a rebuilding mode, then I would most likely want to trade Penny for Jalen, straight up, but we're not.

The Raptors could also get more for Marshall near the deadline than Kurt Thomas.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">^ the marshall contract ends this year. Thats a huge deal and i think it makes 'Yell even more valuable than Kurt Thomas. Thomas is 33 this year and he's got 4 years left on his contract ranging from 6-8 million a season. So he'll be 37 years old when he's getting 8 million for his last year of play. no thanks
Rose is a definate upgrade over Penny in all ways. Sure he's got an extra year on his contract, but with a Knicks payroll of 103 million a year NY wont be able to get any decent free agents until Houstons contracts up. Penny and Tim Thomas leaving, and not signing any new players or rookie contracts will save you nearly 30 million approximately. Which STILL leaves NY at about 73 million bucks....way over the salary cap. This trade would be good for you since it would make you better in the time till Houstons contract expires as well as allowing 'Yell's to expire and saving some money now as opposed to later.
I dont see how it works for the Raptors though. Which is why i wouldnt take it even if a draft pick was involved.</div>
Just as was mention by Henacy, and dj_p_p, Rose will need many touches on the offensive end and with Marbury, Crawford, Houston (still trying to find his groove) and many other players, Rose still isn't the best fit for us.

Even if these two expire in our hands, we have to start somewhere right? Believe it or not, little by little we can erase them, but it will take time. New York gets the most money, and imagine who we could sign if under the cap? But, I am sure the Raptors are not looking to really make a playoff push are they? The Raptors seem like they are in somewhat of a rebuilding mode, and an almost expiring contract like Hardaway's can really contribute especially with Bosh. Some money, and a nice young player like Bosh will definitely add some interest in Toronto. This trade doesn't seem really bad for Toronto if you ask me.

I don't think this is NY hoopla. I've heard this a number of times and this actually sounds legit.

 

[skip]

This trade is so dumb its not even worth rambling about, we give up Donyell- double double machine+expiring contract, Jalen Rose- One of the few little man post players, and efficeint scorer, although his contract is bad. we get KT-pretty good defender, mid range, BAD contract for his age, Penny Hardaway- BIG CONTRACT, is always injured, no production. nuff said

 

[02civic]

^ i dont think the Raps should try for the playoffs...we've had to many late lottery picks from our inability to decide whether if we were gunna start over or try and make a push. However with the teams play as of late there's no reason why the Raps cant try for the playoffs and do very well in my opinion. We've got a nice mesh of defensive players and scorers and one (Bosh) that does both. We're 1 game back of NY and 2 games off of the Atlantic lead. We could probably trade Donyell for a decent player come trade deadline and push even harder.

 

[Premium]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post"> This trade doesn't seem really bad for Toronto if you ask me.

</div>

thats because you're not a raptors fan lol.

look at it from our point of view...we lose our two best players aside from bosh...and get one player who wont contribute much at all, and an aging over-paid role-player. jalen's contract may have an extra year on it, but id gladly keep that extra bad contract year and get production out of it. we trade jalens contract for pennys and we lose all the production. we lose donyells skills (and lets face it...hes a much more versitile player then thomas) AND we lose his expiring contract, and get a bad contract and probably a player that doesnt even want to be here

this trade is horrible for the raptors.

 

[TnNeG]

another day, another trade, another contract.

 

[jbbCourtVision]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Donyell is not worth Mohammed or especially Sweetney. Mohammed is getting all-star consideration and Sweetney is a nice youn star in the making. Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh. Maybe he isn't as skilled but, the potential and the talent is there. </div>You crazy?

I know you are a big Knick fan but......C'MON NOW.

AS for the trade: It is utterly horrible for the Raptors to do this. First of all if we are "rebuilding" why would we trade for an aging power foward nearing the end of his prime with a large contract? He's a talented player for sure but is this really helping the Raptors in any way possible for the present and future? As seen by our victory last night, we need someone to stretch those defences with outside shooting. Someone that can knock the open 3 point shot when needed. Get rid of Marshall and thats what we need, or draft picks.

And I mean Penny? Don't get me started. I would rather bite the bullet on Jalen's remaining 2 years then wait a year for Penny to come off the books. I don't want another Alonzo Mourning on our hands here. This guy is still injured and I would rather wait out a better deal for Jalen then bother with him. Our lineup is perfect with Jalen coming off the bench, albeit he is a very OVERPAID bench player, but he is perfect for the Raptors right now. I mean if you do a salary dump, why don't we just get a salary that will actually come off the freakin books instead of one coming off a season later?

IF Babcock does this it will make me think that he is an utter moron (which I don't think) and that he is purposefully trying to tank the season (which I don't think either)

The Raptors can get a lot more for Rose and Jalen. A lot more. And this doesn't even make sense from a team standpoint. Totally illogical.

 

[skip]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I disagree. Donyell is not worth Mohammed or especially Sweetney. Mohammed is getting all-star consideration and Sweetney is a nice youn star in the making. Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh. Maybe he isn't as skilled but, the potential and the talent is there. </div>

Okay, so you saying that you guys see Sweetney as your franchise player? and you see Sweetney as the next Garnett(going a bit far but Bosh can be better then Garnett, if not then JO)? no offense but Sweetney and Bosh are totally uncomparable.. Also, dont you think Sweetney is a <font size="1">little </font> overwieght?

 

[P.A.P.]

It couldn't really hurt you guys if you lost Sweetney, it would hurt us A LOT, if we lost Bosh.

Just wondering, why you guys all on Sweetney for? I'm sure if he was getting playing time somewhere else, like the minutes Bosh is getting, he'll be getting the similar numbers to him. Bosh and Sweetney are two different players, but Sweetney can have an impact like Elton Brand does. I do think Bosh is the better player than Sweetney, and will be better also, but you guys are bashing Sweetney for really no reason.

 

[skip]

I wasnt bashing Sweetney, i was just implying that Bosh is waaaaaaay more important to us then Sweetney is too the knicks

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">I couldnt see the Knicks giving up Sweetney or Mohammed. Not becuase they're better but because Sweetney's a project and Mohammad is a position you guys arent strong in. (as a matter of fact few teams are). Mohammad is not a great player..true he'll be considered for an all-star spot(i dont think he'll get it) but thats misleading since his numbers are only like 12 and 9 or something like that. Hardly great, but its more than some teams are getting from there center.</div>
I think we are pretty decent in that position. 12 and 9 are good numbers. No they are not Shaq status or any other great C in the past, but those are very solid numbers. It is almost a double double. Nazr Mohammed is a great contributor for us in that position. I'm pretty sure that Nazr will not go down as an all time great C, but he is still a pretty decent. One can not deny that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Thing is the only thing Kurt is better than Marshall at is on ball post defense. He's not as good a shooter, though he aint bad. EDIT: changed my mind, they're about even in rebounds, maybe a slight advantage to 'Yell
And Kurt is 33 with 4 years left. 37 years old making 8 mill sounds like a Knick player alright.</div>
Even if you thought that the only thing Kurt Thomas is good in is his defense, you still have to consider that he is one of the best low post defenders in the NBA right now. Marshall is a good defender but, I think he is much better than Donyell Marshall. I'm not knocking him I'm just trying to emphasize how good Kurt Thomas is defensively.

I think that Kurt Thomas' midrange shot is better than Donyell Marshall's however, Marshall just has more range. If Kurt Thomas was on the Raptors, I think he can have an equivelant presence to Marshall. I just see Marshall being able to shoot the 3.

No, not a slight advantage to Marshall. I think they are even. I mean I guess you could go to their bios and see Marshall averages 7.4rpg and Thomas averages 7.3rpg inasmuch as Kurt Thomas has been averaging more recently.

I also think Kurt Thomas is more consistent than Marshall. I know Marshall is very consistent I just feel that Kurt Thomas is more. I really can only remember only one or two instances where he had a bad game. Other than that, I don't remember. The only problem I see is his money. Kurt Thomas never had any hops or athletic abilities, so age wont really be a problem for him. As I said before, his game is like fine wine...it just keeps getting better year after year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">His contract is rediculous. In terms of money per year its almost as ridiculous as Houstons, TT, and Pennies...but not quite as bad. An extra year true. But see the above post for info as to why an extra year doesnt hurt the Knicks like you think it would. That said he isnt the player you need. But overall i think the trade would be to strongly in your favour. And i disagree. Isiah is dumb.</div>
Because we have a whole bunch of bad contracts, doesn't mean we should add another one. Allan Houston's contract is not going to erase our cap flaws.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Disagree about what? I said that you guys weren't getting Donyell unless you gave up Mohammed or Sweetney...and I said that's not going to happen, implying that Isiah Thomas won't trade two key parts of his team and future for someone who might leave after this year. I never said anything about him being better than them or whatever.</div>
I don't think Isiah and Babcock have not mentioned anything about Nazr or Sweetney. I doubt that it will even come up either. So, when I said "I disagree," I don't think we will even have to give up any of those players to get Rose and Marshall.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas, could be a good pickup yes...But not for the Raptors. He has a a awful contract which Isiah gave him, and he's not that good of a rebounder. His contract is worse than Jalens contract IMO, especially in the last couple of years when he's in his late 30's getting 8, 9 million and 10. No inside game either.

Donyell Marshall extends the offense because he has some skill inside, and he's a very good 3 point shooter. Also, he's a better 3 point shooter than Kurt is a mid-range shooter. He's also a better rebounder, he's as good as a rebounder as Nazr, if not better.</div>
Kurt Thomas not that good of a rebounder? He averages 9.7rpg. Prior to his few recent bad rebounding performances, he was one of 8 players in the league averaging a double double. That is pretty good and the Raptors can use that. Thomas is capable of playing the C, and he did a couple of years ago and managed to have a great season as well. Even if he is undersized for that position, I see him producing more at the 5 than Araujo. You also said that Marshall was a better rebounder than Kurt Thomas and as good as Nazr. How can this be if Kurt is a better rebounder than Nazr?

Kurt Thomas does not shoot the 3 pointer but, he his a very effective midrange shooter. He can spread the floor. Maybe not like Marshall, but his midrange jumper is very good. A majority of his points come from that area and for some reason he shoots 48% from jumpshots. That is an excellent percentage especially considering they all come from the perimeter. Let's say that his 3 point shot was better than Kurt's midrange shot. What about his other shots? He does shoot only 41% from the field which is only 2% higher than what he shoots from the 3. That either tells me he can't shoot other shots well, or a majority of his shots are only 3's. Which one is it? To me, his contract is the only thing that might turn the Raptors off. His age I think has little to do with it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're not the only one that has that opinion. However, Penny will give us limited production, considering that we're pretty muched stacked at the 2 and 3 (we're going to get one in the draft as well), so essentially, we will pay him 15 million to spend half the season on the IR, and the other half on the bench and scoring 2 PPG a game (for 40 games) for us.

I'd much rather have Jalens production and his contract than Penny's limited production, and his contract. You might see it a different way, because you are already stacked with bad contracts, and getting another one will hurt you even more.

If the Raps were in a rebuilding mode, then I would most likely want to trade Penny for Jalen, straight up, but we're not.

The Raptors could also get more for Marshall near the deadline than Kurt Thomas.</div>
Penny Hardaway can also play the 1 as well. So, a little 1 a little 2 and a little 3 will give some sufficient time. I think you guys are forgetting Penny Hardaway is a solid veteran role player and contributes. No, I'll be the first one to say that Penny is not as goos as Rose, but he can still contribute. His contract is horrendous, but he will give you something his contract expiring will be big for you guys too.
You guys can get a better player than Kurt for Marshall, but Kurt Thomas is a good player. His contract is the only thing.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DerfZ:</div><div class="quote_post">his trade is so dumb its not even worth rambling about, we give up Donyell- double double machine+expiring contract, Jalen Rose- One of the few little man post players, and efficeint scorer, although his contract is bad. we get KT-pretty good defender, mid range, BAD contract for his age, Penny Hardaway- BIG CONTRACT, is always injured, no production. nuff said</div>
Double Double Machine? How many has he had this seaosn? I don't think too many. Not more than 6 I know for sure. Because he can post people up at 6'8 makes him really good and makes it even better that he can score too. His attitude, and shot selection is bad too. Hardaway no production? I don't know man. He still can contribute, he is a solid role player, and has veteran experience. I think this will be useful for young guys in Toronto. Big contract which is almost gone. That will definitely give Tornot some cap room especially with them in somewhat of a rebuilding state. This isn't flawless for NY either. I don't really want this trade to go down either. Doesn't work out for us as well. Nuff said.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
thats because you're not a raptors fan lol.

look at it from our point of view...we lose our two best players aside from bosh...and get one player who wont contribute much at all, and an aging over-paid role-player. jalen's contract may have an extra year on it, but id gladly keep that extra bad contract year and get production out of it. we trade jalens contract for pennys and we lose all the production. we lose donyells skills (and lets face it...hes a much more versitile player then thomas) AND we lose his expiring contract, and get a bad contract and probably a player that doesnt even want to be here

this trade is horrible for the raptors.</div>
I wouldn't say horrible though. I think it is somewhat legit. No the Raptors will not get better now but I think it works out well for them in the future. The cap space in the future, will create ample room for signing a good FA. They still have Kurt Thomas' contract, but when his contract expires that will give the Raptors even more cap room lol. Just kidding of course, but I don't think it will be as horrible as many expect. Eventually you will have a star in Bosh, cap room, rising star rookies, and the honor of being considered a contender. From a Raptor fans perspective, I can definitely understand concerns about the trade though. No questions in that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">You crazy?

I know you are a big Knick fan but......C'MON NOW.

AS for the trade: It is utterly horrible for the Raptors to do this. First of all if we are "rebuilding" why would we trade for an aging power foward nearing the end of his prime with a large contract? He's a talented player for sure but is this really helping the Raptors in any way possible for the present and future? As seen by our victory last night, we need someone to stretch those defences with outside shooting. Someone that can knock the open 3 point shot when needed. Get rid of Marshall and thats what we need, or draft picks.

And I mean Penny? Don't get me started. I would rather bite the bullet on Jalen's remaining 2 years then wait a year for Penny to come off the books. I don't want another Alonzo Mourning on our hands here. This guy is still injured and I would rather wait out a better deal for Jalen then bother with him. Our lineup is perfect with Jalen coming off the bench, albeit he is a very OVERPAID bench player, but he is perfect for the Raptors right now. I mean if you do a salary dump, why don't we just get a salary that will actually come off the freakin books instead of one coming off a season later?

IF Babcock does this it will make me think that he is an utter moron (which I don't think) and that he is purposefully trying to tank the season (which I don't think either)

The Raptors can get a lot more for Rose and Jalen. A lot more. And this doesn't even make sense from a team standpoint. Totally illogical.</div>
Na, are you crazy

Judging from the way you put in bold print my quote: "Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh" I see you do not agree with the statement. Should I dig up the appreciation thread? We love Sweetney here and he does have a great future. If he got the same amount of playing time as Bosh, he would put up some good numbers. Why did you bold the Sweetney part? I'm just curious.

Kurt Thomas can help the Raptors. He plays great defense and I think that will help considering they allow close to 99ppg. He is also a good shooter, and an experienced veteran role player who is one of the most consistent players you'll find. He is also not ashamed to do what we consider the "dirty work." Kurt Thomas can stretch the floor. Maybe not as much as Marshall, but he can. Last nights game

please don't get gassed, the Knicks have an atrocious defenses in the league. Letting go of Marshall wont completely stop your chances of shooting out of the zone. Murray, Bonner, Peterson and Alston are all very capable of shooting out of the zone. Marshall is not the only shooter on the team.

You say that you are rebuilding right? I'm taking it as you don't really have a desperate urge to make the playoffs. So your young players developing, and you getting cap room, doesn't count as rebuilding? Penny Hardaway is as I said before, a very good role player, and makes good contributions. Penny has a slight hamstring injury and once he fully heals, he will be able to help the Raptors out. He and the other trainers said that he is in the best shape he has been in a long time. Rebuilding requires patience.

If this goes down, and in the next few years Bosh becomes an elite PF, they sign a great FA, have some great young rookies, and are title contenders would you disagree?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DerfZ:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, so you saying that you guys see Sweetney as your franchise player? and you see Sweetney as the next Garnett(going a bit far but Bosh can be better then Garnett, if not then JO)? no offense but Sweetney and Bosh are totally uncomparable.. Also, dont you think Sweetney is a little overwieght?</div>
Typical cat that doesn?t watch the Knicks

. Yes in a couple of years, Sweetney can become our franchise player! We don?t see him becoming the next Garnett, we see him becoming the next premier PF in the league in a couple of years.

a bit far? I see Bosh becoming a good player in the league, but better than Garnett. And I?m overrating Sweetney. They are comparable. What are you talking about. They are both crowd favorites right? They both have good futures right? Also don?t you think Bosh is a little underweight?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It couldn't really hurt you guys if you lost Sweetney, it would hurt us A LOT, if we lost Bosh. .</div>
Actually, it would. Sweetney is a great backup PF and without him we would indeed struggle especially on the offensive end.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I wasnt bashing Sweetney, i was just implying that Bosh is waaaaaaay more important to us then Sweetney is too the knicks</div>
I can understand you saying better. But waaaaaaay better? I don?t think so. Exactly how many times do you watch Sweetney a year? The reason why he is more important to the Raptors than the Knicks, is because he is taking on a bigger role than Sweetney. Eventually I see their impacts on their teams, being the same.

Btw everyone, sory for the late replies. I had some computer problems.

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">It couldn't really hurt you guys if you lost Sweetney, it would hurt us A LOT, if we lost Bosh.

Just wondering, why you guys all on Sweetney for? I'm sure if he was getting playing time somewhere else, like the minutes Bosh is getting, he'll be getting the similar numbers to him. Bosh and Sweetney are two different players, but Sweetney can have an impact like Elton Brand does. I do think Bosh is the better player than Sweetney, and will be better also, but you guys are bashing Sweetney for really no reason.</div>

I didnt see anyone bash Sweetney. He just said Bosh is more important to us. He did imply that Bosh was better, but Bosh is better, you even said that, so i dont see a problem. Next thing you know the Knicks guys will be in here.
What i am gunna say though is that Sweetney probably would not be putting up the same numbers as Bosh if they played equal minutes. Rebounds and points are the same if you just double Sweetney's current stats, but theres more than that. Bosh is the focus of the oppositions defence so faces abit more pressure than Sweetney. Also Bosh's numbers are including fatigue of playing double the minutes, while Sweetney is only on for 16 minutes over the course of the game. = fresher legs.
Then there's the question as to whether he'd be able to play 32 minutes let alone keep his efficiency up. He's definately overweight. 270 pounds for someone 6-8 is nuts, and although he does have some muscle, alot of it is fat.
Bosh is also 2 years younger than Sweetney. So that deserves some mention.
That being said i think Sweetney could be an Elton Brand type player, maybe not quite as good, but definately a valuable player to have on your team. He's powerful and is tough for PF's like Bosh to contain. Heck at 270 it would be tough for most centers to hold back, if only he wasnt 6-8. I think Sweetney has the potential to be a solid 16 and 11 player, but he needs to work on not turning the ball over as much as he does. Dropping some fat and getting some more muscle would also do nothing but good and allow him to overpower even more than the beast he is. I think in a year or two he'll be the Knicks starting PF and it will allow Kurt to finish his career with the Knicks has a solid backup PF. Sorta like master and apprentice.

I like Sweetney. He's the second best sophomore big guy in the atlantic division.

 

[Premium]

mrj18...he bolded that part in particular, because that was the specific part of your post he was responding to. thats why people usually do that

on the subject of sweetney...its pointless for us raptor fans to try and argue with a knick fan that bosh is better. a lot of knick fans will continue to think that sweetney is as good as bosh or even better, and they wont listen to anyone say otherwise. even though he's not starting, and the knicks arent even taking measures to build around him. yet somehow he's just as good or better then chris. not all knick fans of course.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt see anyone bash Sweetney. He just said Bosh is more important to us. He did imply that Bosh was better, but Bosh is better, you even said that, so i dont see a problem. Next thing you know the Knicks guys will be in here.
What i am gunna say though is that Sweetney probably would not be putting up the same numbers as Bosh if they played equal minutes. Rebounds and points are the same if you just double Sweetney's current stats, but theres more than that. Bosh is the focus of the oppositions defence so faces abit more pressure than Sweetney. Also Bosh's numbers are including fatigue of playing double the minutes, while Sweetney is only on for 16 minutes over the course of the game. = fresher legs.
Then there's the question as to whether he'd be able to play 32 minutes let alone keep his efficiency up. He's definately overweight. 270 pounds for someone 6-8 is nuts, and although he does have some muscle, alot of it is fat.
Bosh is also 2 years younger than Sweetney. So that deserves some mention.
That being said i think Sweetney could be an Elton Brand type player, maybe not quite as good, but definately a valuable player to have on your team. He's powerful and is tough for PF's like Bosh to contain. Heck at 270 it would be tough for most centers to hold back, if only he wasnt 6-8. I think Sweetney has the potential to be a solid 16 and 11 player, but he needs to work on not turning the ball over as much as he does. Dropping some fat and getting some more muscle would also do nothing but good and allow him to overpower even more than the beast he is. I think in a year or two he'll be the Knicks starting PF and it will allow Kurt to finish his career with the Knicks has a solid backup PF. Sorta like master and apprentice.

I like Sweetney. He's the second best sophomore big guy in the atlantic division.

</div>
Yes Sweetney could give the same results as Bosh who plays double than him. I'm sure many of you Raptor fans feel as though Bosh is your best player right? So, it will only make sense that he gets more touches. Sweetney averages only 4 shots per game while Bosh averages 11 shots per game so that should also be taken into consideration as well.

Sweetney is somwhat overweight. A lot of it is muscle too. Not just fat. He has a Brand like figure who is also 270. That will come in due time. Sweetney is pretty much a rookie because the burn he got during the Layden regime was too little to be called time. Any time he was in the game, he made things happen though. Bosh is just the opposite. He needs to gain some weight. They listed him at 235 but that looks a bit leniant. I really think he is less. At least he looks less. I see him becoming a solid 18 and 11 guy but he needs to get that weight thing down.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">mrj18...he bolded that part in particular, because that was the specific part of your post he was responding to. thats why people usually do that

on the subject of sweetney...its pointless for us raptor fans to try and argue with a knick fan that bosh is better. a lot of knick fans will continue to think that sweetney is as good as bosh or even better, and they wont listen to anyone say otherwise. even though he's not starting, and the knicks arent even taking measures to build around him. yet somehow he's just as good or better then chris. not all knick fans of course.</div>
I admitted that Bosh was better. I'm not going to sit here and front. Bosh is better. The way you like Bosh as a crowd favorite, as your future is why he is the equivelent to Sweetney. Again, (as I posted before) I never said Sweetney was better than Bosh in fact, here is a quote: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can understand you saying better</div>

Btw, I was pretty sure about why he made it bold, I just wanted to be 100% sure.

 

[skip]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I can understand you saying better. But waaaaaaay better? I don’t think so. Exactly how many times do you watch Sweetney a year? The reason why he is more important to the Raptors than the Knicks, is because he is taking on a bigger role than Sweetney. Eventually I see their impacts on their teams, being the same.
</div>

i didnt say better. i said important, if we didnt have Bosh we would be a lottery team for years to come, Sweetney doesnt have the same impact that Bosh does even if he is getting less PT

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if you thought that the only thing Kurt Thomas is good in is his defense, you still have to consider that he is one of the best low post defenders in the NBA right now. Marshall is a good defender but, I think he is much better than Donyell Marshall. I'm not knocking him I'm just trying to emphasize how good Kurt Thomas is defensively. </div>

I'm not hating on Kurt Thomas...but as good as he is defensively he's not worth his contract. Jalen isn't worth his contract either, but his contract is worse than Jalens.

The Raps want to win this year, next year and the following years to come. If we're going to win, having Bosh as our first option and someone like Mo Pete or a rookie that we draft, is not that realistic. We need a legit scorer to go with Bosh. That scorer is Rose, or whoever we can acquire for him. Unless we can get someone like McCants or Warrick in this draft, this trade won't benefit our immediate future. In addition, Kurt Thomas would just be coming off the bench for 24 MPG getting paid 9 million. Not worth it IMO.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think that Kurt Thomas' midrange shot is better than Donyell Marshall's however, Marshall just has more range. If Kurt Thomas was on the Raptors, I think he can have an equivelant presence to Marshall. I just see Marshall being able to shoot the 3. </div>

We have different opinions. Marshall doesn't really have "more range", he' just best from shooting around the 3 point line. He's not really a good mid range shooter, good at best, but he'll stick em. Marshalls presence to the Raptors can't be matched by Kurts because Rafer is the guy that runs our offense. Once he goes in the lane, there's almost always someone open for the 3 ball. Marshall is often that guy when he's on the court, and he sticks em. Kurt is more of a pick and roll guy, and he can shoot the mid-range with a defender on him, or without either way, but he won't get the same shots in TO as he does in NY.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, not a slight advantage to Marshall. I think they are even. I mean I guess you could go to their bios and see Marshall averages 7.4rpg and Thomas averages 7.3rpg inasmuch as Kurt Thomas has been averaging more recently.</div>

If you give Marshall minutes, he'll rebound. Last year when he was starting, he grabbed 11 RPG for the Raps, and was a beast on the boards at times, grabbing 17, 18, 19, 20 and more when you needed them.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I also think Kurt Thomas is more consistent than Marshall. I know Marshall is very consistent I just feel that Kurt Thomas is more. I really can only remember only one or two instances where he had a bad game. Other than that, I don't remember. The only problem I see is his money. Kurt Thomas never had any hops or athletic abilities, so age wont really be a problem for him. As I said before, his game is like fine wine...it just keeps getting better year after year.</div>

Marshall is not inconsistant. He'll have a bad game here and there, but he's a consistant player. Give him shots, he'll stick em, he'll grab boards, block shots, he'll do everything. He just needs the same minutes game in game out. In TO right now, he might get 30 minutes one night and 9 the next, so that's why some of your opinions might be swayed.

Legs also have to do alot with longevity in the NBA. Thomas's legs are part of his shooting routine. They'll get older, especially for a big man like him who bangs away and moves around down low as much as he does.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas not that good of a rebounder? He averages 9.7rpg. Prior to his few recent bad rebounding performances, he was one of 8 players in the league averaging a double double. That is pretty good and the Raptors can use that. Thomas is capable of playing the C, and he did a couple of years ago and managed to have a great season as well. Even if he is undersized for that position, I see him producing more at the 5 than Araujo. You also said that Marshall was a better rebounder than Kurt Thomas and as good as Nazr. How can this be if Kurt is a better rebounder than Nazr? </div>

Kurt Thomas is probably a good rebounder at best. For his height and strength, it's about right, but nothing special. The reason his numbers were like this the past few years, is because he had to grab boards. No one else was there to do that, and his rebounding was above average than either.

Right now, he has Nazr Mohammed, a big body, which gives him more space and oppurunities for rebounds. I'm not saying he's bad, but he's not really that good for his size and strength.

Mohammed is a better rebounder than Kurt, I don't care what anybody says, but Nazr is a beast inside. He's more skilled than Kurt in that category, and he's flat out better.

About Araujo, it's not all about him grabbing boards and all that. He just needs to grab his fare share of boards, about 9-10 RPG at his prime, but more importantly, create space for Bosh to do what he wants, and get to the glass as well. This way, having both of them on them court, you can have two 9-10 RPG rebounders. Knicks may have that in Kurt and Nazr, but I'd take Hoffa and Bosh in a heartbeat over them two.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas does not shoot the 3 pointer but, he his a very effective midrange shooter. He can spread the floor. Maybe not like Marshall, but his midrange jumper is very good. A majority of his points come from that area and for some reason he shoots 48% from jumpshots. That is an excellent percentage especially considering they all come from the perimeter. Let's say that his 3 point shot was better than Kurt's midrange shot. What about his other shots? He does shoot only 41% from the field which is only 2% higher than what he shoots from the 3. That either tells me he can't shoot other shots well, or a majority of his shots are only 3's. Which one is it? To me, his contract is the only thing that might turn the Raptors off. His age I think has little to do with it.</div>

If you haven't noticed, 40% from behind the arc is a very, very good percentage. Kurt may shoot 48% or whatnot from 15, but he's not a guy that can do much inside or outside from that. Where as Donyell can, he can go inside, shoot from midrange (not like Kurt) and he can kill you with the 3...as you may of seen yesterday.

If Ray Allen shoots 5 3's a game, and hit 41% of them, and has a FG% percentage of 44%, are you saying that he can't shoot other shots well and that most of his shots are 3's?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Penny Hardaway can also play the 1 as well. So, a little 1 a little 2 and a little 3 will give some sufficient time. I think you guys are forgetting Penny Hardaway is a solid veteran role player and contributes. No, I'll be the first one to say that Penny is not as goos as Rose, but he can still contribute. His contract is horrendous, but he will give you something his contract expiring will be big for you guys too.
You guys can get a better player than Kurt for Marshall, but Kurt Thomas is a good player. His contract is the only thing.</div>

Yes Penny can play the 1 and 2, but for how long? 20 MPG for half the season? I much rather have Rose and his contract and production than Pennys production and contract. I'm sure most Raptor fans will agree. Penny is way past his prime. You also realize that the Raps will be paying him 15 million to do that right? Last time I checked, that was quite alot of money.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Double Double Machine? How many has he had this seaosn? I don't think too many. Not more than 6 I know for sure. Because he can post people up at 6'8 makes him really good and makes it even better that he can score too. His attitude, and shot selection is bad too. Hardaway no production? I don't know man. He still can contribute, he is a solid role player, and has veteran experience. I think this will be useful for young guys in Toronto. Big contract which is almost gone. That will definitely give Tornot some cap room especially with them in somewhat of a rebuilding state. This isn't flawless for NY either. I don't really want this trade to go down either. Doesn't work out for us as well. Nuff said.</div>

lol it seems like you did your research before you posted because Marshall does have 6 Double Doubles this year. How would you know for sure that he doesn't have more than that

'Nuff said? The man is a double double Machine. Last year, he was Mr.Double Double. The difference is this year, is that he's not playing the minutes he was last year (Bosh and Hoffa/Woods). Put him in the starting lineup (assuming one of your bigs like KT is gone, so he gets PT), and your guranteed a double double 4 out of every 5 games.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You say that you are rebuilding right? I'm taking it as you don't really have a desperate urge to make the playoffs. So your young players developing, and you getting cap room, doesn't count as rebuilding? Penny Hardaway is as I said before, a very good role player, and makes good contributions. Penny has a slight hamstring injury and once he fully heals, he will be able to help the Raptors out. He and the other trainers said that he is in the best shape he has been in a long time. Rebuilding requires patience. </div>

No that Paragraph was completely pointless. We're not in a rebuilding process. We're just retooling our team, while being competetive and loading up for the future.

Plus for Penny, I love the guy and all, but once this injury is healed...another one willjust hit him in a week.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If this goes down, and in the next few years Bosh becomes an elite PF, they sign a great FA, have some great young rookies, and are title contenders would you disagree? </div>

Just one question....Would cap space do us any good if nobody wants to really want to sign with the Raptors if they haven't been to the playoffs in a while? With this trade, we're definitly not going to be competitive like we are now, so cap space won't do us much good.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Typical cat that doesn?t watch the Knicks

. Yes in a couple of years, Sweetney can become our franchise player! We don?t see him becoming the next Garnett, we see him becoming the next premier PF in the league in a couple of years.

a bit far? I see Bosh becoming a good player in the league, but better than Garnett. And I?m overrating Sweetney. They are comparable. What are you talking about. They are both crowd favorites right? They both have good futures right? Also don?t you think Bosh is a little underweight?</div>

I'm not one of the posters that were implying anything negative about Sweetney, but I understand what you're saying. In a few years, you'll have him in the starting lineup as your PF, with Marbury and Crawford. That should be a good trio for years to come. I don't see Sweetney being better than Bosh, but I can see him being a good player in a mold of someone like Troy Murphys impact and presence on his team right now. At best, he can have an impact like Brand to the Clippers, but with lower numbers.

Also, Bosh isn't really underweight. 6'10, 235. You don't want him getting too big do you? Then he'd just loose a huge part of his game, quickness.

Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I didn't have time to review the whole post.

 

[Premium]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">I admitted that Bosh was better. I'm not going to sit here and front. Bosh is better. The way you like Bosh as a crowd favorite, as your future is why he is the equivelent to Sweetney. Again, (as I posted before) I never said Sweetney was better than Bosh in fact, here is a quote:

</div>

notice i said "not all knick fans" and didnt directly quote any of your posts

yea...and just to add...donyell is a double double machine. he avg'd a double double last season. he's a great rebounder

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not hating on Kurt Thomas...but as good as he is defensively he's not worth his contract. Jalen isn't worth his contract either, but his contract is worse than Jalens.

The Raps want to win this year, next year and the following years to come. If we're going to win, having Bosh as our first option and someone like Mo Pete or a rookie that we draft, is not that realistic. We need a legit scorer to go with Bosh. That scorer is Rose, or whoever we can acquire for him. Unless we can get someone like McCants or Warrick in this draft, this trade won't benefit our immediate future. In addition, Kurt Thomas would just be coming off the bench for 24 MPG getting paid 9 million. Not worth it IMO.</div>
I thought getting someone good in the draft was a part of the plan. My fault.



<div class="quote_poster">Quoting :</div><div class="quote_post">We have different opinions. Marshall doesn't really have "more range", he' just best from shooting around the 3 point line. He's not really a good mid range shooter, good at best, but he'll stick em. Marshalls presence to the Raptors can't be matched by Kurts because Rafer is the guy that runs our offense. Once he goes in the lane, there's almost always someone open for the 3 ball. Marshall is often that guy when he's on the court, and he sticks em. Kurt is more of a pick and roll guy, and he can shoot the mid-range with a defender on him, or without either way, but he won't get the same shots in TO as he does in NY. </div>
Well, if Toronto has so many good 3 point shooters, why would the absence of just one vreate such a confict.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you give Marshall minutes, he'll rebound. Last year when he was starting, he grabbed 11 RPG for the Raps, and was a beast on the boards at times, grabbing 17, 18, 19, 20 and more when you needed them.</div>
I know he is good on the boards. I also mentioned that in my first post.

Marshall is not inconsistant. He'll have a bad game here and there, but he's a consistant player. Give him shots, he'll stick em, he'll grab boards, block shots, he'll do everything. He just needs the same minutes game in game out. In TO right now, he might get 30 minutes one night and 9 the next, so that's why some of your opinions might be swayed. [/QUOTE]
I never said that he was inconsistent in fact, I mentioned in my first post, that he was consistent. I just feel that Kurt Thomas is more consistent.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Legs also have to do alot with longevity in the NBA. Thomas's legs are part of his shooting routine. They'll get older, especially for a big man like him who bangs away and moves around down low as much as he does. </div>
Not really, Thomas barely jumps or uses his legs when he shoots.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas is probably a good rebounder at best. For his height and strength, it's about right, but nothing special. The reason his numbers were like this the past few years, is because he had to grab boards. No one else was there to do that, and his rebounding was above average than either. </div>
At best Kurt Thomas is a decent rebounder. I heard some people saying that they consider Kurt "undersized" so, if an undersized PF who is usually out on the perimeter averages almost 10rpg, I think that makes him a good rebounder.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Right now, he has Nazr Mohammed, a big body, which gives him more space and oppurunities for rebounds. I'm not saying he's bad, but he's not really that good for his size and strength.

Mohammed is a better rebounder than Kurt, I don't care what anybody says, but Nazr is a beast inside. He's more skilled than Kurt in that category, and he's flat out better.</div>
Even if you thought Nazr was a better rebounder, you have to admit Kurt is a good one himself. Kurt has been rebounding well before Nazr became this good, or before we had him, or Marbury.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About Araujo, it's not all about him grabbing boards and all that. He just needs to grab his fare share of boards, about 9-10 RPG at his prime, but more importantly, create space for Bosh to do what he wants, and get to the glass as well. This way, having both of them on them court, you can have two 9-10 RPG rebounders. Knicks may have that in Kurt and Nazr, but I'd take Hoffa and Bosh in a heartbeat over them two.</div>
The point I was trying to make is right now, Kurt Thomas will contribute more than Araujo will. I'm guessing Hoffa means Araujo.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you haven't noticed, 40% from behind the arc is a very, very good percentage. Kurt may shoot 48% or whatnot from 15, but he's not a guy that can do much inside or outside from that. Where as Donyell can, he can go inside, shoot from midrange (not like Kurt) and he can kill you with the 3...as you may of seen yesterday.
</div>
I am aware of his tremendous offensive talent. He does have more offensive abilites than Kurt Thomas. That isn't a question. I was just responding to the comment he doesn't have a better shot than Marshall.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Ray Allen shoots 5 3's a game, and hit 41% of them, and has a FG% percentage of 44%, are you saying that he can't shoot other shots well and that most of his shots are 3's?
</div>
We already know Ray Allen is one of the best shooters in the league. He shoots the 3 well, and 44% isn't a bad shooting percentage at all. That's pretty decent for a shooting guard. Especially considering many of his shots are jumpers rather than slashing to the basket like many other SG's.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Penny can play the 1 and 2, but for how long? 20 MPG for half the season? I much rather have Rose and his contract and production than Pennys production and contract. I'm sure most Raptor fans will agree. Penny is way past his prime. You also realize that the Raps will be paying him 15 million to do that right? Last time I checked, that was quite alot of money.</div>
Well, I heard that the Raptors were trying to rebuild. Penny's contract will expire before Rose's so I thought it will help the Raptors accomplish their goal sooner. Both are overpaid, Rose is just better right now.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">lol it seems like you did your research before you posted because Marshall does have 6 Double Doubles this year. How would you know for sure that he doesn't have more than that

</div>
lol it seems like you read my post thoroughly before replying because I said more than 6 double doubles this year

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">'Nuff said? The man is a double double Machine. Last year, he was Mr.Double Double. The difference is this year, is that he's not playing the minutes he was last year (Bosh and Hoffa/Woods). Put him in the starting lineup (assuming one of your bigs like KT is gone, so he gets PT), and your guranteed a double double 4 out of every 5 games.</div>
Excuse me. It just never showed this season. That's why I was so confused.





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No that Paragraph was completely pointless. We're not in a rebuilding process. We're just retooling our team, while being competetive and loading up for the future.

Plus for Penny, I love the guy and all, but once this injury is healed...another one willjust hit him in a week.
</div>
Again, I thought you guys were rebuilding. If you guys are not looking to make a strong playoff push this year, I assumed you were rebuilding.

I don't think he is that injury prone. I don;t think any less than Carter. If he is than not by much.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just one question....Would cap space do us any good if nobody wants to really want to sign with the Raptors if they haven't been to the playoffs in a while? With this trade, we're definitly not going to be competitive like we are now, so cap space won't do us much good.</div>
Why not? If you a player decent money, I'm sure there would be someone willing to sign.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not one of the posters that were implying anything negative about Sweetney, but I understand what you're saying. In a few years, you'll have him in the starting lineup as your PF, with Marbury and Crawford. That should be a good trio for years to come. I don't see Sweetney being better than Bosh, but I can see him being a good player in a mold of someone like Troy Murphys impact and presence on his team right now. At best, he can have an impact like Brand to the Clippers, but with lower numbers.</div>
I see Sweetney being just as good as Brand. I don't see Bosh being as good as KG, or JO though.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, Bosh isn't really underweight. 6'10, 235. You don't want him getting too big do you? Then he'd just loose a huge part of his game, quickness. </div>

True, but Bosh really is kind of skinny. He doesn't want to quickness, but I'm sure he doesn't want to get abused either.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sorry for any grammar mistakes, I didn't have time to review the whole post.</div>
It's all good. I understood everything you said, and had no trouble.

 

[Mr. J]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">notice i said "not all knick fans" and didnt directly quote any of your posts

yea...and just to add...donyell is a double double machine. he avg'd a double double last season. he's a great rebounder</div>
Techinically he didn't he averaged 9.9rpg lol. But for real, I just couldn't see it this season. But I heard he didn't get any burn.

 

[jbbCourtVision]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">Na, are you crazy

Judging from the way you put in bold print my quote: "Us Knick fans see Sweetney just the same way as you see Bosh" I see you do not agree with the statement. Should I dig up the appreciation thread? We love Sweetney here and he does have a great future. If he got the same amount of playing time as Bosh, he would put up some good numbers. Why did you bold the Sweetney part? I'm just curious.</div>Well I bolded the part because we see Bosh as the franchise at this point in the present and future. I don't want to hate on Sweetney but I seen the dude play, he is not Elton Brand. For one, Elton Brand can play amazing defence. Another, he came into the league as a dangerous low post threat. Third, he won the freaking ROY. Can you build a franchise around this Sweetney cat? I don't think it is guranteed like Brand was. Bosh is already the face of the franchise and he's only going to get better.

That is why I was wondering why you see Sweetney as we see Bosh. I just don't agree with it I guess as much as Knick fans do. I say give him another year and then make predictions on the kid.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kurt Thomas can help the Raptors. He plays great defense and I think that will help considering they allow close to 99ppg. He is also a good shooter, and an experienced veteran role player who is one of the most consistent players you'll find. He is also not ashamed to do what we consider the "dirty work." Kurt Thomas can stretch the floor. Maybe not as much as Marshall, but he can. Last nights game

please don't get gassed, the Knicks have an atrocious defenses in the league. Letting go of Marshall wont completely stop your chances of shooting out of the zone. Murray, Bonner, Peterson and Alston are all very capable of shooting out of the zone. Marshall is not the only shooter on the team. </div>This is not a case of who is the better player or a better talent. This is a case of a 34 year old talented power foward with 4 years left on his contract vs. a player that is coming off the cap next year. I have no doubt about Thomas' talent but I don't want him on our team. Why add him? We already have Bosh.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You say that you are rebuilding right? I'm taking it as you don't really have a desperate urge to make the playoffs. So your young players developing, and you getting cap room, doesn't count as rebuilding? Penny Hardaway is as I said before, a very good role player, and makes good contributions. Penny has a slight hamstring injury and once he fully heals, he will be able to help the Raptors out. He and the other trainers said that he is in the best shape he has been in a long time. Rebuilding requires patience. </div>How are we getting cap room? You are leaving us with Thomas' large ass contract. Thats not exactly getting rid of cap room.

Like I said. I would rather get rid of Donyell's contract and wait for a better deal for Rose. This is not helping our problems one bit. Why wait one year for a bad contract to get off our cap? Why don't we just trade for someone that will come off right away? Sure rebuilding takes patience but it also takes being intelligent about your moves and your future.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If this goes down, and in the next few years Bosh becomes an elite PF, they sign a great FA, have some great young rookies, and are title contenders would you disagree? </div>Hell yeah but having KT's contract on our books for 4 years, we are more than a little hindered at doing that wouldn't we? Disagree?

 

[Mr. J]

Listen, I'm about to leave now, but I'll make sure to respond tommorow. Don't want to wake up late for school or anything. I got finals and stuff!

 

[02civic]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
No, not a slight advantage to Marshall. I think they are even. I mean I guess you could go to their bios and see Marshall averages 7.4rpg and Thomas averages 7.3rpg inasmuch as Kurt Thomas has been averaging more recently.</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kurt Thomas not that good of a rebounder? He averages 9.7rpg. Prior to his few recent bad rebounding performances, he was one of 8 players in the league averaging a double double. That is pretty good and the Raptors can use that.</div>

Marshall averages more over his career. Marshall has 5 seasons with at least 8 rebounds per game, Kurt is working on his fourth. Marshall has 2 seasons with 10 rpg, Kurt has none...9.7 is the closest he's come and thats this year, next closest is 9.1.
Marshall averaged 16.2ppg and 10.7rpg in 66 games with the Raps last year. Finishing the season only .1rpg from averaging a double double.
This year 'Yell is getting 24 minutes per game this year and he's still getting 10.7 and 6.8.
Kurt is not a good rebounder for a PF, thats a well known fact. This year he's been doing fine, but it might be because Crawford, TT, and Nazr are all horribly rebounders for their position.


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Thomas is capable of playing the C, and he did a couple of years ago and managed to have a great season as well. Even if he is undersized for that position, I see him producing more at the 5 than Araujo. </div>

I dont know about Kurt has a center. I'm sure he's done it...so has Donyell. But both are too weak for the spot, and both play away from the basket. I'd take 'Yell though simply because he's a better rebounder.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting mrj18:</div><div class="quote_post">
Typical cat that doesn?t watch the Knicks

. Yes in a couple of years, Sweetney can become our franchise player! We don?t see him becoming the next Garnett, we see him becoming the next premier PF in the league in a couple of years.

a bit far? I see Bosh becoming a good player in the league, but better than Garnett. And I?m overrating Sweetney. They are comparable. What are you talking about. They are both crowd favorites right? They both have good futures right? Also don?t you think Bosh is a little underweight?</div>

They're both favorites, they both have good futures. Just remember Bosh has a bigger upside and is 2 years younger. Bosh is waaay better. Sure Sweetney doesnt get the same minutes but i think everyone will agree that Bosh has the skills, the speed, the talent...everything to be a top 5 player. Does Sweetney? At 6-8 and a chunky 270 pounds. Thats questionalbe.