Rumor: Blazers discussions with Suns

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Karl Malone's Elbows said:
This is bogus, I'm not partaking in this thread anymore.

When is the last time you heard about one of Kevin Pritchard's trades before it happend? The answer is never. Not one of the trades under Pritchard's Blazers has been leaked.
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You're not partaking in this thread anymore because you just spewed out an irrelevant and false statement.
 
Ed O said:
Look at PER for the players you mentioned in your first post. PER is normalized for Pace, and I don't think that there's a strong correlation between D'Antoni's system and higher-than-similar-year PER numbers.

Ed O.
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have you checked amare's per for the d'antoni years compared to the others?
 
B-Roy said:
1. Irrelevant. Oden played Shaq, not Amare.
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Oden played both Shaq and Amare. In fact in their first meeting Oden hardly played against Shaq.

2. Completely false. He was outplayed by Amare every game.
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How can you say they didn't play each other and then say Amare outplayed Oden? Head-to-head Oden dominated Amare, it wasn't even close.
 
rocketeer said:
since when is amare on the cusp of being an mvp level player? with d'antoni, it could be argued that he was close, but definitely not anymore.
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He was first team all-NBA at age 24 in 2007. He placed 6th in MVP voting last year.

Is that not the cusp of MVP-level player?

just look at his per. he's at 20.1 this season. aldridge is at 18.9. and aldridge is a better defensive player. is it really that much of an upgrade?
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Yes, it's a huge upgrade. I don't think that Amare's production this year is indicative of his capabilities.

Ed O.
 
rocketeer said:
have you checked amare's per for the d'antoni years compared to the others?
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I am addressing the evidence he put forward that D'Antoni's system artificially inflates numbers. Numbers that MATTER (like PER) I just don't see this to be true.

Even with other numbers, people need to cherry-pick to explain why, for example, Bell's numbers in Utah were inferior to those in Phoenix.

Ed O.
 
rocketeer said:
just look at his per. he's at 20.1 this season. aldridge is at 18.9. and aldridge is a better defensive player. is it really that much of an upgrade?
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If you assume this half-season of play represents Amare's "true level," then no, it isn't. This season is a bit concerning to me, but I think it's too quick to write off everything he did before this season.
 
Ed O said:
He was first team all-NBA at age 24 in 2007. He placed 6th in MVP voting last year.

Is that not the cusp of MVP-level player?

Yes, it's a huge upgrade. I don't think that Amare's production this year is indicative of his capabilities.

Ed O.
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amare was on the cusp of being an mvp level player when he teamed up with d'antoni and nash. however, he currently is not on the cusp of being an mvp level player. that's what i was getting at.

i think amare's production this year is very indicative of what his capabilities would be on the blazers and that his years with d'antoni don't accurately represent how amare would produce in most systems.
 
LaMarcus is a mediocre defensive player.

Amare is a mediocre defensive player.

There isn't that much of a difference defensively.
 
Minstrel said:
If you assume this half-season of play represents Amare's "true level," then no, it isn't. This season is a bit concerning to me, but I think it's too quick to write off everything he did before this season.
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i think that if he were to be traded to portland his play this season is more indicative of what you should expect of him than his play under d'antoni was. no reason to write off what he's done in the past, but there is very good reason to look at the context of it.

Ed O said:
I am addressing the evidence he put forward that D'Antoni's system artificially inflates numbers. Numbers that MATTER (like PER) I just don't see this to be true.

Ed O.
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you are correct in that, i was just pointing out that there is evidence that amare's numbers were inflated by d'antoni's system.
 
Fez said:
LaMarcus is a mediocre defensive player.

Amare is a mediocre defensive player.

There isn't that much of a difference defensively.
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of course, i think many would disagree at aldridge being put on equal footing with amare as a defender.
 
rocketeer said:
i think that if he were to be traded to portland his play this season is more indicative of what you should expect of him than his play under d'antoni was. no reason to write off what he's done in the past, but there is very good reason to look at the context of it.
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Why? Nash was called a "D'Antoni product" too, but his PER didn't really change from his Maverick days. Marion remained about the same level of player as he was pre-D'Antoni. What's the evidence that Amare's PER (rather than his raw stats) was inflated by D'Antoni's system? His PER is down this year, that's true, but he's also been in a system featuring Shaq, which seems to have had a pretty major impact. If you take the ball away from a premier scorer, his productivity is going to go down, regardless of system.
 
Karl Malone's Elbows said:
When is the last time you heard about one of Kevin Pritchard's trades before it happend? The answer is never. Not one of the trades under Pritchard's Blazers has been leaked.
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The Randolph to NY for Frye was discussed several days before happening (as I recall, most thought it was laughable unfair to the Blazers, myself certainly included)

As to Amare vs LMA as defenders - they're both pretty mediocre, aren't they? And Amare's the better rebounder.
 
Karl Malone's Elbows said:
No, because he'll never get close to passing the players in front of him. And there are tons of young player that will be better than him soon. I don't see him ever getting higher than 6th in MVP voting.
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No offense, but while you're entitled to your opinion your opinion doesn't really matter much to me.

He's 26 years old. If you think lots of younger players are going to zoom by him as he enters his prime, then more power to you. I don't find that incredibly likely.

It's also a huge downgrade on defense.
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If he's a huge downgrade on defense and a huge upgrade overall, then that's just fine.

Amare commands double teams in a way that Aldridge does not. He gets to the line at a high clip and he's a great free throw shooter. Even assuming he's significantly worse at defense than Aldridge (which I am not sure I believe) I think he's a far superior player overall.

Ed O.
 
Where does a Roy and (a rejuvenated?) Amare combo put the Blazers in the West?
 
Fez said:
Where does a Roy and (a rejuvenated?) Amare combo put the Blazers in the West?
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On the Spurs' level, when you count in Portland's center combination and Rudy and Outlaw.

Once Oden can avoid foul trouble and start playing aggressively all game long, a Roy/Amare/Oden combination places them with any team in basketball, IMO.
 
Fez said:
Where does a Roy and (a rejuvenated?) Amare combo put the Blazers in the West?
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Close to the Lakers and Spurs, but dependent on how well Oden/Prz can play. So far, I don't think Oden's had a great game against a good team (they're all too busy taking advantage of the pick and roll), and that will limit the Blazers. To a lesser extent, it could depend match to match on one or more of Batum, Outlaw, Rudy, or Bayless getting hot that night. Basically, outside contenders, definitely not favorites.
 
Fez said:
Where does a Roy and (a rejuvenated?) Amare combo put the Blazers in the West?
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top 4 lock IMO. having that next level talent will really do something. Amare plays like Oden needs to. just would be kind of weird having both low post like that and no more inside-out game.....
 
Minstrel said:
Why? Nash was called a "D'Antoni product" too, but his PER didn't really change from his Maverick days. Marion remained about the same level of player as he was pre-D'Antoni. What's the evidence that Amare's PER (rather than his raw stats) was inflated by D'Antoni's system? His PER is down this year, that's true, but he's also been in a system featuring Shaq, which seems to have had a pretty major impact. If you take the ball away from a premier scorer, his productivity is going to go down, regardless of system.
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the evidence that amare's per was inflated by d'antoni's system would be the years he was with d'antoni and the years he wasn't.

compare last year to this year if you'd like. when shaq joined the suns, amare didn't decline last year. i don't know his per month to month(if you do feel free to share), but just looking at his other numbers it appears that he kept up his very high level of play that was consistent with a career high per.

suddenly now this season without d'antoni, his production has dropped down all the way consistent with the last time he played without d'antoni for part of a season(and i doubt you'd disagree that d'antoni's first season in which he began coaching 20-30 games in, had no training camp to run his system, and had marbury running the point instead of nash wasn't really indicative of his system).
 
I think it is more that Porter is an atrocious coach than it is than it is he's missing D'Antoni incredibly terribly. Obviously he is missing D'Antoni somewhat, but I do not think that explains everything.
 
rocketeer said:
suddenly now this season without d'antoni, his production has dropped down all the way consistent with the last time he played without d'antoni for part of a season(and i doubt you'd disagree that d'antoni's first season in which he began coaching 20-30 games in, had no training camp to run his system, and had marbury running the point instead of nash wasn't really indicative of his system).
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Sample size is an issue, and then so is Amare's age. He was 20 and 21 his first two seasons before D'Antoni took over. Do you think that he's really the same level of player that he was in his second year at age 21?

Ed O.
 
rocketeer said:
the evidence that amare's per was inflated by d'antoni's system would be the years he was with d'antoni and the years he wasn't.

compare last year to this year if you'd like. when shaq joined the suns, amare didn't decline last year. i don't know his per month to month(if you do feel free to share), but just looking at his other numbers it appears that he kept up his very high level of play that was consistent with a career high per.

suddenly now this season without d'antoni, his production has dropped down all the way consistent with the last time he played without d'antoni for part of a season(and i doubt you'd disagree that d'antoni's first season in which he began coaching 20-30 games in, had no training camp to run his system, and had marbury running the point instead of nash wasn't really indicative of his system).
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Or maybe Porter just isn't a very good coach? Amare could just as well be suffering from a Isiah Thomas level coach (please forgive me TP, nobody is that bad) and will explode, Vince Carter in New Jersey-style, on a new team.
 
number 10 said:
Or maybe Porter just isn't a very good coach? Amare could just as well be suffering from a Isiah Thomas level coach (please forgive me TP, nobody is that bad) and will explode, Vince Carter in New Jersey-style, on a new team.
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Nash certainly isn't a Porter fan. Actually, no Suns have been happy with Porter's offense except for Shaq, as far as I can tell.

Ed O.
 
rocketeer said:
the evidence that amare's per was inflated by d'antoni's system would be the years he was with d'antoni and the years he wasn't.
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That's not very good evidence, IMO. Most of the pre-D'Antoni years were developing years for Amare. He would have been expected to improve with age. Which leaves us only with:

compare last year to this year if you'd like. when shaq joined the suns, amare didn't decline last year.
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One year is just too small a sample. But this is important to point out:

2007-08: 27.6 PER / 28.2 USG%
2008-09: 20.1 PER / 24.4 USG%

His usage rate has fallen dramatically this year. If Phoenix is not putting the ball in his hands as much, due to featuring Shaq, it's not a surprise his productivity dropped. Last season, Phoenix wasn't featuring Shaq...this year, thanks to Kerr's (confused, IMO) philosophies, they are.
 
Karl Malone's Elbows said:
Oden played both Shaq and Amare. In fact in their first meeting Oden hardly played against Shaq.
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Shaq got Oden in foul trouble. I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Karl Malone's Elbows said:
How can you say they didn't play each other and then say Amare outplayed Oden? Head-to-head Oden dominated Amare, it wasn't even close.
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http://www.nba.com/games/20081122/PORPHX/boxscore.html

http://www.nba.com/games/20081218/PHXPOR/boxscore.html

That's when they faced each other head to head. Now would you mind not pulling shit out of your ass?
 
number 10 said:
Or maybe Porter just isn't a very good coach? Amare could just as well be suffering from a Isiah Thomas level coach (please forgive me TP, nobody is that bad) and will explode, Vince Carter in New Jersey-style, on a new team.
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isiah wasn't really that bad of a coach. however, he was a terrible gm.
 
rocketeer said:
the evidence that amare's per was inflated by d'antoni's system would be the years he was with d'antoni and the years he wasn't.

compare last year to this year if you'd like. when shaq joined the suns, amare didn't decline last year. i don't know his per month to month(if you do feel free to share), but just looking at his other numbers it appears that he kept up his very high level of play that was consistent with a career high per.

suddenly now this season without d'antoni, his production has dropped down all the way consistent with the last time he played without d'antoni for part of a season(and i doubt you'd disagree that d'antoni's first season in which he began coaching 20-30 games in, had no training camp to run his system, and had marbury running the point instead of nash wasn't really indicative of his system).
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Maybe I'm off base here and my recollection is wrong, but doesn't PER account for pace?

I don't think you can say that Amar'e was just a good player under D'Antoni and is a much worse player just because Mike is gone ... I don't need stats to tell me that he is a great offensive power forward with incredible athlecism, great at getting to the line, decent rebounder and fairly disinterested defender, my own two eyes tell me that.

The issue really boils down to would he resume being his juggernaut self if he was once again a featured guy in the offense, essentially 1b to Brandon's 1a? My guess is that he'd probably go right back to putting up a 23+ PER and while he would certainly take touches away from Greg, it's not like Oden's a featured guy in the offense anyway (yet). I think I could maybe live with the pecking order on offense being Roy --> Amar'e --> Oden, which theoretically allows Greg to gradually grow into the role of a low post presence and you let him focus primarily on defending the paint, blocking shots, rebounding and getting put backs on offensive boards.

In any case, it's a tough call.
 
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