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You can say it as much as you're little heart desires, boy. You'll be wrong every time.

Oxford also disagrees with ol' VanillaGorilla:

Oxford Dictionary said:
atheism: Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

But carry on Vanilla. Continue to tell me how I'm wrong, along with Webster, Merriam and Oxford.

Tell it to dictionary.com as wel:

dictionary.com said:
a·the·ism [ey-thee-iz-uhm]
noun
1.
the doctrine or belief that there is no God.
 
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countered with:

I dont think that means what you think it does. So 75% of Americans are Christian, but only 9% rank it has the most important part of their life. What does that have to do with their upbringing? And how does it dwarf the amount of Christians in the US? Doesn't it just mean that the majority of Christians rank family/other as more important than their religion?
 
Actually no. Atheism is a hair color like the color purple. Being bald is not even close to being the relevant.

Now we're knee-deep in semantics. Is a newborn baby an atheist? Depending on whether you classify "atheist" as an active or passive quality (the primary difference between VG's and blazerboy's arguments), you could go either way, but I don't think splitting hairs like that is useful.
 
Now we're knee-deep in semantics. Is a newborn baby an atheist? Depending on whether you classify "atheist" as an active or passive quality (the primary difference between VG's and blazerboy's arguments), you could go either way, but I don't think splitting hairs like that is useful.

I think the semantics do matter if atheists want to ridicule theists and religious about having beliefs that they can't prove. Which is done on this board quite often.
 
When it becomes the most important thing in your life; you try and force feed this belief to your children. If it isn't as important; then you just believe in God because it's right for you. You are more open for your children to believe in something else.

Maybe I didn't understad your original point. I thought you were saying that most Christians come to it on their own. What VanillaGorilla is saying (I think) is that most Christians were raised Christian.

Actually, I thought your original point was just a joke that babies are atheists.
 
I dont think that means what you think it does. So 75% of Americans are Christian, but only 9% rank it has the most important part of their life. What does that have to do with their upbringing? And how does it dwarf the amount of Christians in the US? Doesn't it just mean that the majority of Christians rank family/other as more important than their religion?

I disagree with you, and maybe you don't understand my argument because you aren't a Christian. When Christianity is #1 important thing in your life; you want everyone you love to be witnessed to it. Big example is my father was Catholic and was raised Catholic. We never went to church and as I grew up I was an atheist. When my father got saved and became a Christian, he immediately tried to get us all to go to Church. It was his most important thing in his life.

His words "I don't want to die knowing that I didn't do everything in my power to witness salvation to the ones I loved" <--- I still was atheist and I fought it for years. And when I actually became Christian, it was important to me to witness to everyone I love.
 
Now we're knee-deep in semantics. Is a newborn baby an atheist? Depending on whether you classify "atheist" as an active or passive quality (the primary difference between VG's and blazerboy's arguments), you could go either way, but I don't think splitting hairs like that is useful.

Nope... And I won't label anyone not saved an atheist either. But most people I know and attend all the Churches I went to didn't believe in God. Or were extremely agnostic.

I don't want to split hairs here.
 
Actually, I thought your original point was just a joke that babies are atheists.

No way I would think that. Which is why I agree that a person that isn't witnessed to have a pass. Just because you didn't learn about God immediately puts you in some category of Atheist. But the reality of Christianity is most reject God and fight it until the day they are saved.
 
Nope... And I won't label anyone not saved an atheist either. But most people I know and attend all the Churches I went to didn't believe in God. Or were extremely agnostic.

I don't want to split hairs here.

But can you see how it depends on your definition of "atheist"? If you are talking about the ACTIVE disbelief in god, then you are right -- a baby is not an atheist. But if you are talking about a simple ABSENCE of belief, the baby is indeed most likely an atheist!

atheism
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
(http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/atheism)
 
But can you see how it depends on your definition of "atheist"? If you are talking about the ACTIVE disbelief in god, then you are right -- a baby is not an atheist. But if you are talking about a simple ABSENCE of belief, the baby is indeed most likely an atheist!

atheism
noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
(http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/atheism)

Well according to that; then I guess babies are atheists! LMAO! <--- I kid! I kid!
 
Well according to that; then I guess babies are atheists! LMAO! <--- I kid! I kid!

Exactly.

Of course, we can all recognize the difference between a baby's "atheism" and that of Dawkins -- we just don't have a great word in place to distinguish between the two (as far as I know).
 
Exactly.

Of course, we can all recognize the difference between a baby's "atheism" and that of Dawkins -- we just don't have a great word in place to distinguish between the two (as far as I know).

Well that's easy.....

The baby atheist = naive.

The adult atheist = enemy of GOD!!!!!!!

I kid! I kid!
 
I disagree with you, and maybe you don't understand my argument because you aren't a Christian. When Christianity is #1 important thing in your life; you want everyone you love to be witnessed to it. Big example is my father was Catholic and was raised Catholic. We never went to church and as I grew up I was an atheist. When my father got saved and became a Christian, he immediately tried to get us all to go to Church. It was his most important thing in his life.

His words "I don't want to die knowing that I didn't do everything in my power to witness salvation to the ones I loved" <--- I still was atheist and I fought it for years. And when I actually became Christian, it was important to me to witness to everyone I love.

So they aren't really Christian until they fit with that 9%? If that is your argument (and that the other 91% of Christians are actually atheists), then I guess your statement makes sense.
 
So they aren't really Christian until they fit with that 9%? If that is your argument (and that the other 91% of Christians are actually atheists), then I guess your statement makes sense.

No what I'm saying is the higher % of Christians weren't brought up as Christians, they actually found god themselves. It's not exact science; but it's closer than vanillagorilla's statement that all grew up taught being a Christian.
 
No what I'm saying is the higher % of Christians weren't brought up as Christians, they actually found god themselves. It's not exact science; but it's closer than vanillagorilla's statement that all grew up taught being a Christian.

But you're basing this definition of "Christian" as that 9%. No where does it say how they were raised, but I would guess that most of them were raised Christian (though maybe not as devout).

I guess here is an example. A kid is raised in a family that calls itself Christian. They go to church, believe in god and what the church teaches them, but they are not actively spreading the word of god. At some point he has an epiphany and becomes 'saved' and now view god/life like your father. Does this guy fall into your argument or Vanilla Gorilla's? I have a feeling you'd both claim him as supporting your argument.

Just trying to understand what you are stating.
 
FWIW, I've always seen a distinction between atheism and agnosticism. I'd expect an atheist to outright reject existence of deities. A(nti) theism. Opposite of theism.

Agnostic would be someone who doesn't believe but could be convinced. There's no element of outright rejection of any deities.

I've always considered myself an agnostic.
 
But you're basing this definition of "Christian" as that 9%. No where does it say how they were raised, but I would guess that most of them were raised Christian (though maybe not as devout).

I guess here is an example. A kid is raised in a family that calls itself Christian. They go to church, believe in god and what the church teaches them, but they are not actively spreading the word of god. At some point he has an epiphany and becomes 'saved' and now view god/life like your father. Does this guy fall into your argument or Vanilla Gorilla's? I have a feeling you'd both claim him as supporting your argument.

Just trying to understand what you are stating.

You got a very valid point and I will strike my comment from the record counselor.
 
FWIW, I've always seen a distinction between atheism and agnosticism. I'd expect an atheist to outright reject existence of deities. A(nti) theism. Opposite of theism.

Agnostic would be someone who doesn't believe but could be convinced. There's no element of outright rejection of any deities.

I've always considered myself an agnostic.

That's a popular definition of the two words, but it's not quite inline with Huxley's original definition of "agnostic", nor does it agree with the terms as defined by most modern atheist organizations. If, in your heart of hearts, you don't believe in the existence of god(s), you are an atheist. If you acknowledge the possibility that you are wrong and would change your mind with further empirical evidence to the contrary, you are also agnostic. The two are not mutually exclusive -- they are assertions on two entirely different dimensions of thought!
 
This is the definition of agnosticism given by Thomas Huxley, who created the concept.

Agnosticism is not a creed but a method, the essence of which lies in the vigorous application of a single principle. Positively the principle may be expressed as, in matters of the intellect, follow your reason as far as it can carry you without other considerations. And negatively, in matters of the intellect, do not pretend the conclusions are certain that are not demonstrated or demonstrable. It is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can produce evidence which logically justifies that certainty.
 
That's a popular definition of the two words, but it's not quite inline with Huxley's original definition of "agnostic", nor does it agree with the terms as defined by most modern atheist organizations. If, in your heart of hearts, you don't believe in the existence of god(s), you are an atheist. If you acknowledge the possibility that you are wrong and would change your mind with further empirical evidence to the contrary, you are also agnostic. The two are not mutually exclusive -- they are assertions on two entirely different dimensions of thought!

Time would be the third dimension, no? After mags converts you, then "before" you were agnostic and "after" you were... well, you know.

"before" and "after" being points in time.
 
Time would be the third dimension, no? After mags converts you, then "before" you were agnostic and "after" you were... well, you know.

"before" and "after" being points in time.

Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself. Temporally speaking.
 
But I still think there's a distinction between agnosticism and atheism.

Agnosticism includes the case where you don't believe (no evidence). I don't see the need to have your feet in both camps.

That said, I don't know many posters here I'd consider atheists. MARIS61 is clearly one.

I seriously doubt anyone with scientific training would deny existence of a deity if there were empirical evidence of one.
 
But I still think there's a distinction between agnosticism and atheism.

Agnosticism includes the case where you don't believe (no evidence). I don't see the need to have your feet in both camps.

That said, I don't know many posters here I'd consider atheists. MARIS61 is clearly one.

I seriously doubt anyone with scientific training would deny existence of a deity if there were empirical evidence of one.

But Denny, you seem to be suggesting that "absence of evidence" is somehow a lesser or incomplete reason for disbelief. In fact, I'd say it is the #1 reason to "disbelieve" anything! You could tell me that you've discovered a miracle cure for arthritis based on magnetic bracelets and peppermint tea, but if you can't provide evidence, I'm afraid I will not believe you. Am I somehow "agnostic" on the possibility of peppermint/magnet remedies? "Agnosticism," in it's original definition, is a commitment to empirical evidence, and a refusal to hold as true that which cannot be objectively confirmed. It isn't a middle ground between theism and atheism -- it's a statement of knowledge, and how one should achieve it. The opposite of "agnostic" is one who believes that truth is achieved by personal revelation, rather than empirical and objective experiment.

You are correct that any true agnostic would immediately convert to theism if god rode a flaming chariot down to Earth and held a press conference. This would also not violate their status as agnostics. On the other hand, there are many theists who maintain that empirical evidence such as this is completely unnecessary for achieving true knowledge, that personal revelation through prayer or meditation is the best (or only) way to find truth. This kind of magical, subjective "truth" is exactly what Huxley was originally arguing AGAINST.

Now, the atheists.org position is that no theist can claim to be agnostic. I think that's a bit unfair, and disagree. But the bottom line is that agnosticism is not the fuzzy "middle ground" that has become the popular interpretation.
 
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One thing I always hated about religious people is how they tell me what my relationship with god was supposed to be, and now they tell me about what my belief in the whole thing is/should be/how I feel.

I don't care if you're religious or not religious. don't tell me how I'm supposed to feel about it, when you don't have the experience of being agnostic or atheist, and if you do, you don't have MY experience.
 
But Denny, you seem to be suggesting that "absence of evidence" is somehow a lesser or incomplete reason for disbelief. In fact, I'd say it is the #1 reason to "disbelieve" anything! You could tell me that you've discovered a miracle cure for arthritis based on magnetic bracelets and peppermint tea, but if you can't provide evidence, I'm afraid I will not believe you. Am I somehow "agnostic" on the possibility of peppermint/magnet remedies? "Agnosticism," in it's original definition, is a commitment to empirical evidence, and a refusal to hold as true that which cannot be objectively confirmed. It isn't a middle ground between theism and atheism -- it's a statement of knowledge, and how one should achieve it. The opposite of "agnostic" is one who believes that truth is achieved by personal revelation, rather than empirical and objective experiment.

You are correct that any true agnostic would immediately convert to theism if god rode a flaming chariot down to Earth and held a press conference. This would also not violate their status as agnostics. On the other hand, there are many theists who maintain that empirical evidence such as this is completely unnecessary for achieving true knowledge, that personal revelation through prayer or meditation is the best (or only) way to find truth. This kind of magical, subjective "truth" is exactly what Huxley was originally arguing AGAINST.

Now, the atheists.org position is that no theist can claim to be agnostic. I think that's a bit unfair, and disagree. But the bottom line is that agnosticism is not the fuzzy "middle ground" that has become the popular interpretation.

I don't suggest anything of the kind.

I can go look in my back yard and see no people. I wouldn't think from that lack of evidence (of people) that there are no other people anywhere else.

As far as agnostic about ... whatever?

I think it applies only to deities. People say they're agnostic about .. cure for cancer or whatever ... but they're using the word like a metaphor.

Get it? Like a metaphor.

;-)

And I never considered proof or evidence or anything along those lines to have anything to do with atheism. It's like mags' irrational belief in god, but an irrational belief in no god.
 
Good lord. Since human concepts appear to be extensions of our motor schemas, it's more than likely our concepts will be what crumble first ... you know ... like they're doing here.
 
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Denny, I understand your definition of "agnostic", and I know that is a commonly used one. I'm just pointing out that it is true to neither the original definition as given by Huxley, nor to the current one generally accepted by most atheists.
 
My use of agnostic is perfectly inline with the definition in post 187.
 

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