Science and Religion questions (2 Viewers)

[crowTrobot]

Do you really think that it doesn't happen?

i would guess it is quite rare for atheists who's non-belief is based in evidence and reason to convert just due to circumstances that create emotional stress.

on the other hand someone who is a non-believer because he just hasn't cared to that point would be much more likely to convert under emotional stress.

What's to loose, whether rational or indifferent? If they convert, and there is a God, they go to heaven. If they don't convert and there's a God, they go to hell. If they do convert and there is no God, what to they loose?

pascal was literally brain damaged when he came up with his wager : )

also although you may be able to self-brainwash to some extent, genuine belief is not a matter of choice. your question presumes god values faked belief as much as the real thing.

 

[julius]

Well, the ones I know of are anecdotal, for sure. Do you really think that it doesn't happen?

A non-believer finds out that he will die in hours, days or weeks. The chaplain is right there. Nobody will know if they convert, except the chaplain.

What's to loose, whether rational or indifferent? If they convert, and there is a God, they go to heaven. If they don't convert and there's a God, they go to hell. If they do convert and there is no God, what to they loose?

Go Blazers

I don't see it that way (i.e., don't convert, there is a god, go to hell). that's a pretty petty and lame low self esteem based god there.

If he's all powerful, he shouldn't need us to praise him, convert to him, talk about him, etc. Free will should be the way. If we're good, we can go to 'heaven', if not? you don't. Simple as that.

If you've lived a good life, it's ok. And imho, if it is based on "oooh, I gotta do this or I won't get into heaven", thats pointless.

Why not just be a good person, regardless of the reward after life?


Like the old question, 'what happens if there's an afterlife and you don't believe in god?'

well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food? Does that change how you act here? It doesn't for me.

 

[RR7]

well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food? Does that change how you act here? It doesn't for me.

I might start being nicer to worms.

 

[VanillaGorilla]

I don't see it that way (i.e., don't convert, there is a god, go to hell). that's a pretty petty and lame low self esteem based god there.

If he's all powerful, he shouldn't need us to praise him, convert to him, talk about him, etc. Free will should be the way. If we're good, we can go to 'heaven', if not? you don't. Simple as that.

If you've lived a good life, it's ok. And imho, if it is based on "oooh, I gotta do this or I won't get into heaven", thats pointless.

Why not just be a good person, regardless of the reward after life?


Like the old question, 'what happens if there's an afterlife and you don't believe in god?'

well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food? Does that change how you act here? It doesn't for me.

Free will is an illusion!

Seriously, I recommend everyone read Free Will by Sam Harris.

A belief in free will touches nearly everything that human beings value. It is difficult to think about law, politics, religion, public policy, intimate relationships, morality—as well as feelings of remorse or personal achievement—without first imagining that every person is the true source of his or her thoughts and actions. And yet the facts tell us that free will is an illusion.

In this enlightening book, Sam Harris argues that this truth about the human mind does not undermine morality or diminish the importance of social and political freedom, but it can and should change the way we think about some of the most important questions in life.

Also, check out The Moral Landscape by Harris.

In this explosive new book, Sam Harris tears down the wall between scientific facts and human values, arguing that most people are simply mistaken about the relationship between morality and the rest of human knowledge. Harris urges us to think about morality in terms of human and animal well-being, viewing the experiences of conscious creatures as peaks and valleys on a “moral landscape.” Because there are definite facts to be known about where we fall on this landscape, Harris foresees a time when science will no longer limit itself to merely describing what people do in the name of “morality”; in principle, science should be able to tell us what we ought to do to live the best lives possible.

Bringing a fresh perspective to age-old questions of right and wrong, and good and evil, Harris demonstrates that we already know enough about the human brain and its relationship to events in the world to say that there are right and wrong answers to the most pressing questions of human life. Because such answers exist, moral relativism is simply false—and comes at increasing cost to humanity. And the intrusions of religion into the sphere of human values can be finally repelled: for just as there is no such thing as Christian physics or Muslim algebra, there can be no Christian or Muslim morality.

Using his expertise in philosophy and neuroscience, along with his experience on the front lines of our “culture wars,” Harris delivers a game-changing book about the future of science and about the real basis of human cooperation.

 

[oldguy]

I don't see it that way (i.e., don't convert, there is a god, go to hell). that's a pretty petty and lame low self esteem based god there.

If he's all powerful, he shouldn't need us to praise him, convert to him, talk about him, etc. Free will should be the way. If we're good, we can go to 'heaven', if not? you don't. Simple as that.

If you've lived a good life, it's ok. And imho, if it is based on "oooh, I gotta do this or I won't get into heaven", thats pointless.

Why not just be a good person, regardless of the reward after life?


Like the old question, 'what happens if there's an afterlife and you don't believe in god?'

well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food? Does that change how you act here? It doesn't for me.

I'm no minister, so I'm just going to post this excerpt that states pretty well what I've always been told.

Finally, if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved (Romans 10:9). This salvation in Christ is a precious gift and it is nothing that we can earn through our good works (Romans 6:23b; Ephesians 2:8-9). The message of the gospel is that we can never be good enough to get to heaven. We must recognize the fact that we are sinners who daily fall short of God’s glory, and we must obey the command to repent of our sins and place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, who alone was good enough to earn heaven, and who gives that merit to those who believe in His name.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/good-person.html#ixzz2P3xmXrFn

Go Blazers

 

[VanillaGorilla]

Finally, if we confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved (Romans 10:9). This salvation in Christ is a precious gift and it is nothing that we can earn through our good works (Romans 6:23b; Ephesians 2:8-9). The message of the gospel is that we can never be good enough to get to heaven. We must recognize the fact that we are sinners who daily fall short of God’s glory, and we must obey the command to repent of our sins and place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, who alone was good enough to earn heaven, and who gives that merit to those who believe in His name.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/good-per...#ixzz2P3xmXrFn

Wow.. That's terrible.

 

[crowTrobot]

well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food?

a king progresses through the guts of a beggar?

 

[magnifier661]

So, Mags, you believe if you are once forgiven, you are always forgiven, no matter how badly you live your life after that forgiveness.

Would you explain how Lucifer was, being already an angel (therefore previously given the gift), cast from heaven for eternity?

You are speaking about the time before Jesus. I got a question.

If you believe that God is omnipresent and omnipotent; then wouldn't he know the sins you've committed from birth to death? And if Jesus promised that he died for all sins right?

And finally; when we ask for forgiveness; then all sins are forgiven right? And if you understand omnipotent; then there is no time for God. That means what we've done today, yesteryear and the day of death are of the same time to an omnipotent God.

This is why losing salvation doesn't work. This is why someone that thinks logically would understand it would be a contradiction if God didn't forgive all sins when we ask for forgiveness.

 

[magnifier661]

Mags, I respect the living without violating the 10 commandments thing, but I don't think thats necessarily a religious thing. It CAN be derived from a religious upbringing, but I've known people who aren't religious who aren't bad people. Me, my brother and his wife for example. None of us are religious, yet the lack of religious beliefs or upbringing hasn't exactly caused us to stray from the 10 commandments or some of the better morals in religious teachings.

Even if the reasons why we are "good moral people" wasn't due to being told an invisible dude up in the sky wants us to be. It was "treat others as you want to be treated" and "people make mistakes, including you. Don't forget that"

I am worse than anyone else in my eyes. Don't worry about me judging you. What I know is that "all come short" not the pope, Virgin Mary, or any so called arch bishops. None of them are better than the other in Gods eyes.

 

[magnifier661]

I don't see it that way (i.e., don't convert, there is a god, go to hell). that's a pretty petty and lame low self esteem based god there.

If he's all powerful, he shouldn't need us to praise him, convert to him, talk about him, etc. Free will should be the way. If we're good, we can go to 'heaven', if not? you don't. Simple as that.

If you've lived a good life, it's ok. And imho, if it is based on "oooh, I gotta do this or I won't get into heaven", thats pointless.

Why not just be a good person, regardless of the reward after life?


Like the old question, 'what happens if there's an afterlife and you don't believe in god?'

well, what happens if there isn't an afterlife, and you're just worm food? Does that change how you act here? It doesn't for me.

If you look at someone perfect and his kingdom that is perfect; you can't bring in imperfect things or beings. There is a place for those that aren't allowed in the kingdom of heaven; but that's something I would like to talk to you privately about.

 

[magnifier661]

Wow.. That's terrible.

How is that terrible?

 

[chevyrunssometimes]

a king progresses through the guts of a beggar?

hehe. Well done, crowmlet.

 

[magnifier661]

Here are a few links I can give regarding eternal salvation.

http://partnersforthegospel.com/2012/06/13/7-reasons-you-cant-lose-your-salvation/

7 Reasons You Can’t Lose Your Salvation
June 13, 2012 — Leave a comment
1. ADOPTION
When we receive Christ and are saved, we are God’s sons & daughters. He has imputed His righteousness onto our account (irreversible) and made us part of His family forever. *See Romans 4:5-9, 16. Ephesians 1:4-5 says that is His desire [will] and choice that has brought us to Him – that’s impossible to fight against. John 1:12 says that we believe and become His children.

2. COVENANT
Marriage covenants are strong, but they are secondary to that of Christ’s covenant with His people (Ephesians 5:25-26). God hates divorce because if gives a false picture of His faithfulness (book of Hosea). When we are saved, God covenants with us – never to leave or forsake us (Heb. 13:5, 20). All believers should expect to share in the marriage supper mentioned in Revelation 19 as His Bride.

3. UNCONDITIONAL LOVE
God’s love is greater and stronger than whatever man can do. I didn’t do anything to earn or deserve God’s love, so it is also true that I cannot do anything to make Him stop loving me. He loved me when I was still a sinner (Romans 5:1-11). God can’t love me any more or any less – just look at the cross for the most compelling example of this kind of love. While this doesn’t mean that God saves everyone or that He overlooks sin, it does mean that, because He hath set his love upon me, I can be assured of eternity through grace and faith. *See John 5:24, 6:37-40; Titus 3:4-5.

4. GRACE
God’s grace is connected with His power … and He is far too strong to ever let me go (1 Peter 1:5)! His gracious commitment to me when I commit my soul to Him precludes my past sins and all my future sins (Phil. 1:6). God agreed to save me when I was 12 yrs old – even though I hadn’t even committed the bulk of my sins yet. He knew what I was going to do, and still He graciously saved me from my sins. Just as my acts of goodness cannot count toward my salvation, neither can my acts of sin and selfishness count against it. I was saved by grace, and grace is always victorious over sin (Ephesians 2:8-10)!

5. CHASTENING
As a child of God, I understand God’s discipline (Hebrews 12:5-11). He does not treat me like a convict feeling the need to constant punish (Romans 8:1). He understands that I am flesh and will require training… and I’m thankful. Some would say that sins destroy my relationship with God, but John writes in his First Epistle that my relationship with Christ is secure (sin only jeopardizes my fellowship with Him).

6. PETER
The chosen Apostle’s example is one of great encouragement to the worst of sinners. Peter committed the worst of sins — the ‘unpardonable sin’ of denying Christ (blasphemy). Not only once, He denied three times (Mark 14:66-72). Three wasted opportunities. The third time he even swore with an oath. Did not Christ tell Peter that any man denying Him would be denied before the Father (Matt. 10:33)? Yet Jesus didn’t just throw away this soul to Satan! He didn’t give up on Him, quite the opposite… He gave Peter three ‘second chances’ to voice His love for His Savior (John 21).

7. SO MANY SCRIPTURES
Is God indecisive? Is the Bible divided? No! Yet some would question hundreds of clear Bible teachings (teaching eternal security) because they do not understand a dozen vague passages (seemingly implying insecurity of salvation). The whole of Scripture has a singular teaching about salvation… either the Bible teaches you CAN or you CAN’T lose your salvation – not both. Over 10:1, the Scriptures teach that eternal life is a present possession (1 John 5:12) given to those who receive Christ by faith (John 6:37, 10:28-29), guaranteed for our assurance and faith (1 John 5:13-14) to the intent we believe even more.

>> There are far more reasons, this is just a quick list that is personal to me… please add your own reasons in the COMMENTS, below! Thanks.

What about QUESTIONABLE PASSAGES?
*I must admit that I don’t have all the answers! I firmly believe that many false teachings have been born out of a person’s inability to say “I don’t know” and leave it at that. We long to be dogmatic and know that we know certain things. We must agree to study and search the Scriptures, comparing verses with each other, drawing conclusions that gel with the whole of the Bible.

*Let context rule! Many cults and false teachings are based in the very same book I’ve built my life on. Consider the audience, date, dispensation, literary type, etc. of difficult passages. For example, John 15:6 is part of a parabolic teaching (Jesus doesn’t really give me sap or expect me to grow grapes on my fingers and toes. So why would I isolate the fire as literal ‘hell-fire’?). Also, Hebrews 6 is a difficulty to many, but it was written to Messianic Jews. Don’t try to apply verse 6 to your experience… it is simplify understood when you consider the author is speaking of the Jews who lived along side Jesus and saw His life, miracles, death, and resurrection first-hand, yet did not believe. He says that if they didn’t believe that, what else would they believe – there’s not another Jesus coming to save them (10:26).

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=127

1. The Greek word translated “salvation” (soteria) denotes “deliverance and preservation” [1]; “Safety, preservation from danger or destruction. It is contrasted with death (2 Cor. 7:10) and destruction (Phil. 1:28)” [2]. It also means “wholeness” or “health.” Fundamentally, we are saved from two things: sin and death. We are saved from sin and death by justification and the corresponding gift of everlasting life.

Therefore we define “salvation” as a state of being saved, rescued or delivered from something that threatens death or destruction, that is, being brought to a place of safety. The Hebrew word for “salvation” also means a place of safety (yasha). Logically, if we are still in jeopardy of somehow losing this salvation, we are not in a very “safe” place.

10. Scripture says that, “with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). Our belief in and confession of Jesus as Lord is not the cause of our salvation, but rather the condition we meet that enables God to save us. Since the believer does not save himself, neither can he “unsave” himself.

There are many more on that link, but I wanted a couple for you to review. Anyone that believes they can "unsave" themselves, have no idea how they got saved in the first place.

 

[chevyrunssometimes]

OMG!!! Hey, we need to (finally) get together for coffee, a beer, or whatever. I've always wanted to meet you from waaaaay back when in our early O-Live days.

What say you?

PS: I promise I won't preach to you.

I'm not adverse to such things, but I don't know if I'd make a special run to PDX just to visit with a born again. (haha) Maybe I can come and lecture at your church.

 

[crowTrobot]

How is that terrible?

it's very cultish for one.

 

[chevyrunssometimes]

Free will is an illusion!

Seriously, I recommend everyone read Free Will by Sam Harris.


Also, check out The Moral Landscape by Harris.

Yeah, I second that emotion.

 

[magnifier661]

it's very cultish for one.

Explain how you believe this is cultish?

 

[crowTrobot]

at its heart the message of christianity is extremely cultish - we are unworthy, but through repentence and faith-based belief earn merit and reward. this summary is intended to break someone down and appeal to emotionalism in the same way a cult would.

The message of the gospel is that we can never be good enough to get to heaven. We must recognize the fact that we are sinners who daily fall short of God’s glory, and we must obey the command to repent of our sins and place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ, who alone was good enough to earn heaven, and who gives that merit to those who believe in His name.

 

[magnifier661]

at its heart the message of christianity is extremely cultish - we are unworthy, but through repentence and faith-based belief earn merit and reward. this summary is intended to break someone down and appeal to emotionalism in the same way a cult would.

And this is no different than one that attends a Tony Robbins self help seminar, or where someone being obese breaking down and trusting in a trainer and dietician to help him lose weight.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that you can't do it alone. In fact, the moment man realizes this; we can accomplish great things.

 

[chevyrunssometimes]

Lmao!!!!! Of course! Hahaha

But that has nothing to do with "god existing".

Nor does atheism.

Who fucking knows; maybe no mans interpretation is correct?

Interpretation of what? There's no thing that's being interpreted in a consistent manner. You're taking an imaginary thing and then spouting off about it. Gee, that's bound to lead to knowledge. What was I thinking?

 

[magnifier661]

Nor does atheism.

The hell it doesn't. You got it confused with agnosticism.

Interpretation of what? There's no thing that's being interpreted in a consistent manner. You're taking an imaginary thing and then spouting off about it. Gee, that's bound to lead to knowledge. What was I thinking?

It's good that you are finally coming up to speed.

 

[chevyrunssometimes]

In fact, the moment man realizes this; we can accomplish great things.

Like the Pyramids! Get a lil slave action goin' there? I think modern man could do a heck of a lot more if not so susceptible to those fucking magic books. Look at our technology our medicine. Sure as shit glad someone decided to think instead of pray.

 

[magnifier661]

Like the Pyramids! Get a lil slave action goin' there? I think modern man could do a heck of a lot more if not so susceptible to those fucking magic books. Look at our technology our medicine. Sure as shit glad someone decided to think instead of pray.

Actually you just gave an example of man able to build amazing things with a mass of people. The pharaoh couldn't have done it alone.

Also, eastern medicine has been around for thousands of years. Some would even argue that their methods are pretty damn good.

 

[crowTrobot]

And this is no different than one that attends a Tony Robbins self help seminar, or where someone being obese breaking down and trusting in a trainer and dietician to help him lose weight.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that you can't do it alone. In fact, the moment man realizes this; we can accomplish great things.

cults do sometimes help people accomplish things. AA is also not unlike a cult.

to quote Dawkins - i'm not interested in the utility of christianity, i'm interested in what's true.

 

[magnifier661]

cults do sometimes help people accomplish things. AA is also not unlike a cult.

to quote Dawkins - i'm not interested in the utility of christianity, i'm interested in what's true.

Yep! That's how cults can actually attract people.

Like I mentioned with self help groups. The attraction is made and the sheep are easily persuaded.

That's why I always tell any Christian I know to question the church and motives. That message is not cult. It's the people behind messages like these.

 

[crowTrobot]

The attraction is made and the sheep are easily persuaded.

apparently

 

[magnifier661]

apparently

Yep and this applies to all beliefs, including atheism

 

[crowTrobot]

Yep and this applies to all beliefs, including atheism

by your definition i'm not an atheist.

 

[magnifier661]

by your definition i'm not an atheist.

I already know this

 

[chevyrunssometimes]

Actually you just gave an example of man able to build amazing things with a mass of people.

Ya think?