OT Sell me on a better plan

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I’ll gladly answer most questions. But not this one. Impossible to answer and potentially influence someone who needs to even ask it in the first place.

Yeah I didn't read your posts so idk if you did what I posted about.
I read the OP and one directly above my first post(quote and response).
So yeah.
Sorry I'm just turned off to people who play that game in politics. It shows they don't know because they just blindly follow their party lines.
Which is fine 90% of people in this world don't have time, nor the desire to research every politician.
My issue with those people is generally they're forever blue or forever red. Then they become the loudest in the room banging their political colors.

But yeah off topic. have a nice discussion ya'll.
 
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Yeah I didn't read your posts so idk if you did what I posted about.
I read the OP and one directly above my first post(quote and response).
So yeah.
Sorry I'm just turned off to people who play that game in politics. It shows they don't know because they just blindly follow their party lines.
Which is fine 90% of people in this world don't have time, nor the desire to research every politician.
My issue with those people is generally those people are forever blue or forever red. Then they become the loudest in the room banging their political colors.

But yeah off topic. have a nice discussion ya'll.
The post directly above your post was OB’s and then above that was mine. Unless you’re referring to a different post. Do you mind clarifying, not looking for an argument just if my response came off as, “no you”, that wasnt the intent, and Id be willing to try to clarify my response.
 
The post directly above your post was OB’s and then above that was mine. Unless you’re referring to a different post. Do you mind clarifying, not looking for an argument just if my response came off as, “no you”, that wasnt the intent, and Id be willing to try to clarify my response.

I read the OP and one directly above my first post(quote and response).
I mean it's pretty clear that I read OB's post directly above mine as well as the one he quoted in that specific post.
In that quote it did have basically a "no you" response. Along with claiming he was a lawyer. While forgetting a couple years ago he said Obamacare was a godsend and he couldn't afford health insurance without it.

But my memory gets me in trouble more often than not. People don't like things they've said in the past brought up in the now.
 
Well, I did try and I didn't say anything nasty to you.

and you deserve more than a retort on my phone. plus I'm finishing the Yang videos tonight, then will get to your Warren link on Wednesday or Thursday at the latest. Then i can get to Chris.

Im genuine in my questions, so i can only give a proper response to those who take me serious.
Please be patient and i promise i will respond in a thorough, thought out response. I owe you nothing less. :)
 
I mean it's pretty clear that I read OB's post directly above mine as well as the one he quoted in that specific post.
In that quote it did have basically a "no you" response. Along with claiming someone claiming he was a lawyer. While forgetting a couple years ago he said Obamacare was a godsend and he couldn't afford health insurance without it.

But my memory gets me in trouble more often than not. People don't like things they've said in the past brought up in the now.
Sorry I misread what you were saying.
 
@VanillaGorilla @SlyPokerDog

Okay guys, I finished the two hour video on Yang.

I have two things.

One, I definitely need to study him more to get deep into the details of his plan, as it is intriguing.

Two, the flipside. This plan needs to be dissected down to the last minute detail or it will be a revolt of freedom loving Americans. I have doubts about his universal wage plan, but understand that it is likely where we will be 100 years from now, so part of me says, lets figure the details out and just get it going.
I need to watch and study more of his plan and how will make it happen.

I will say this though, I really like how he speaks and that's huge for politicians. I rarely like how they speak, no matter the party affiliation.

@crandc You are next! Going to check out your link tonight and dissect what you wrote. :)
 
@VanillaGorilla @SlyPokerDog

Okay guys, I finished the two hour video on Yang.

I have two things.

One, I definitely need to study him more to get deep into the details of his plan, as it is intriguing.

Two, the flipside. This plan needs to be dissected down to the last minute detail or it will be a revolt of freedom loving Americans. I have doubts about his universal wage plan, but understand that it is likely where we will be 100 years from now, so part of me says, lets figure the details out and just get it going.
I need to watch and study more of his plan and how will make it happen.

I will say this though, I really like how he speaks and that's huge for politicians. I rarely like how they speak, no matter the party affiliation.

@crandc You are next! Going to check out your link tonight and dissect what you wrote. :)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying his plan takes freedom away in some way. I don't think UBI would take freedom of choice to make or save money, or freedom to choose your own career path away. Quite the opposite actually.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by saying his plan takes freedom away in some way. I don't think UBI would take freedom of choice to make or save money, or freedom to choose your own career path away. Quite the opposite actually.

Im not saying it does, yet. What I am saying though is that not every mind is of equal intelligence, problem solving skills or creativity and most wages people make are based on those factors. The more intelligent are those who often work their way up the ladder and/or prove themselves invaluable and rightfully demanding of a higher wage. I have more to study up on on him, so I may find he has the plan detailed out in such a manner that it covers all scenarios of creativity. How is he going to determine the value and wage for one artist over another? How will he determine who should be the one to move up the ladder into a more management/CEO type of responsibility?

These are the things I need check into more, but im intrigued about the idea if there is some sort of fair distribution.

I do believe the market used to be the best way to determine the needs of society. But in todays mass marketing in every corner of every thing we use, from sports jerseys to our phones, tvs and pcs, nothing comes without an add anymore. I think this mass spending in advertising can manipulate the minds of the average person and thus cause them to spend money on items that are not as good, and those companies have the power to squash the ones that do have quality products.

Is it possible to be a believe in capitalism, but not big business? LOL.
 
I will take a stab at it as a Warren supporter.

First, if you have not done so, I would suggest reading the NY Times article endorsing Warren and Amy Klobuchar: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...har-elizabeth-warren-nytimes-endorsement.html. This summarizes I think fairly strength and weakness of the various candidates.

It is also true, as the Times says, that most if not all of the 2020 Democratic field agrees on a lot of issues. They all support immigration reform, voting rights, expanding health care access, background checks for gun purchase, among other issues; they all support the science of global warming and think women are smart enough to make our own healthcare decisions without male legislators mansplaining pregnancy to us. They all agree treating people with courtesy and respect is a good thing, they all accept US intelligence over Putin.

So, why did I pick Warren? First, she aligns most consistently with my own views. Not 100%, I doubt any two people ever agree 100% on everything. But I do agree with her that simply nibbling around the edges is insufficient. I support any measure, even small ones, that make lives of people, animals, the planet a little better but one thing we've seen in the past 3 years is how easy it has been to undo these measures when a president not only wants to give all to the rich and powerful but also loves cruelty to those considered "losers" (poor, sick, disabled, refugees, etc.) I agree with Warren that structural changes are needed. As a working class woman I will always be poorer than my parents were. As a worker with a physical disability, I have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to employment discrimination and lack of access. And the next generation may be poorer still. All economic gains go to the top 1%, or really fraction of 1%. College is harder to go to, there is less and less social mobility, housing is insufficient and segregated, education perpetuates inequality, health care even with "good" insurance costs a fortune. And there are relentless attacks on civil rights. And the planet is burning. These things happen not due to some conspiracy hatched in a smoke filled room by a few evil men but because this inequality is a feature of the current system. It is working exactly as it was planned to, for the benefit of the rich and powerful.

I like that, as we say, "Warren has a plan for that". I'm a realist, I know she won't be able to implement every plan. But I like that she is not a one-note candidate. That she is knowledgeable and concerned about many issues. She's not likely to be taken by surprise by something that would come up during her presidency. She is prepared.

I like her. She does not come from privilege. She understands how it feels to struggle. Like many women of her generation she quit college to marry and have children. When she was ready to resume her education she was almost derailed by lack of childcare. Her Aunt Bea agreed to take care of her children. Were it not for Aunt Bea, she probably would have had to spend the rest of her life waiting tables or in a typing pool, like so many women. I like that she became a special education teacher. That shows she has compassion and is willing to do a hard job.

Early in the campaign, before I made up my mind who I supported, I saw Warren interviewed, I really can't remember by whom. But he said that a position she was espousing was not popular. She replied that leadership means doing what is right and persuading others that it is right. She added that she might indeed be wrong and other people might sometimes convince her of that. So many politicians talk out of both sides of their mouths. I thought she showed integrity saying she would do what she thought was right, and also humility, she is not a god, she does not know everything, she is willing to listen to other points of view. You will not hear her say she knows more about war than generals or more about science than scientists.

I know that Warren and Bernie Sanders have similar views. I picked Warren for several reasons. I admit, I'm inclined to support a woman, I mean, we've had 45 men and 0 women. Also, I feel that Warren explains and Sanders yells. I do get tired of being yelled at. Age is a factor, she is 70 but he is 78 and women live longer. I also feel that Sanders is less likely to listen to others.

You might want to check this out from Washington Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/

It talks about a range of issues, you check off your position and it tells which candidate agrees most with you. Not surprisingly, it showed I agree most with Warren, Sanders second, also not terribly surprising, more of a surprise it showed Yang and Steyer, neither of whom I would consider supporting, third.

So that's why I support Elizabeth Warren. Hope that helps.

Okay,

So I was finally able to check out the first link and read up on Sanders and Warren. Unfortunately I couldn't watch the video, because I cant get the sound to work on the PC im at. :(
Ill watch it and im sure a couple more to get a better sense of her demeanor.

If my choice was between Sanders or Warren, I would much likely vote Warren for the very same reasons you would. However, I know some about Sanders and im not a fan of many of his plans, which seem to be very similar to Warrens from what I have read so far.

When I read this,

"...And she has proposed a sweeping expansion of government support for Americans at every stage of life, from universal child care to free public college to expanded Social Security..."

I get concerned.

Who is to pay for all of this expansion? Me? Im not sure I want to pay more so someone can have 5 kids when I dont have any. Im not sure I want to pay more for all kids to go to college because (depending on the scenario) thier parents dont want to do what it takes to make it happen.

I am for expanded social security to an extent. I am also for free health care for all humans born with disabilities, and a few other scenarios.

I work hard and I try hard to do the right thing in all facets and times of my life (now, I was a little shit when I was young, lol) and I chose and maneuvered my path to put me in the position to have the income and the lifestyle I have. Why do I want to give some of my earnings up for others who dont want to work as hard or make poor choices in life? I am not responsible for thier decisions.
I think this type of change in our government will only enable more laziness and it will begin a cycle that will be our eventual downfall as a country and as a society.

We have become too soft and things are handed out too easily. We have lost the knowledge of just how fragile our economy and current living really is. We dont know what its like to truly SURVIVE for our lives.
We will only continue to further disconnect ourselves fomr this reality and be less able ot cope with stress and life threatening situations if we continue to make it easier and easier. Life isnt made to be easy in my opinion. Its not easy for any other from of life on this planet and we are no different.

Im goign to go check out the next link now, as that sounds like fun! :)

Crandc, with everything I said, I still believe there are a great many more things that brings us as humans together than what separates us. We just need ot focus moreo n these and compromise more on the others. We are in a point in time right now where everyone has drawn a solid line without any flexibility. I think this is the number one issue that we need to focus on as a country. How to communicate. We are continually losing more and more of this skill in life. Poor communication starts wars.
That's what scare me more than poverty, corporate greed or evil people. If we dont get a grip on our communication, we are going to go completely crazy.
I guess i'm looking for a candidate who wants to slow down some of our fast pace and get us to focus more on the fundamentals of life and communication.

Ill make sure I watch that video and give her her full opportunity to sell me on her ideals and plans before I just close the book on one article though. :) So this is a to be continued...
 
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Im not saying it does, yet. What I am saying though is that not every mind is of equal intelligence, problem solving skills or creativity and most wages people make are based on those factors. The more intelligent are those who often work their way up the ladder and/or prove themselves invaluable and rightfully demanding of a higher wage. I have more to study up on on him, so I may find he has the plan detailed out in such a manner that it covers all scenarios of creativity. How is he going to determine the value and wage for one artist over another? How will he determine who should be the one to move up the ladder into a more management/CEO type of responsibility?

These are the things I need check into more, but im intrigued about the idea if there is some sort of fair distribution.

I do believe the market used to be the best way to determine the needs of society. But in todays mass marketing in every corner of every thing we use, from sports jerseys to our phones, tvs and pcs, nothing comes without an add anymore. I think this mass spending in advertising can manipulate the minds of the average person and thus cause them to spend money on items that are not as good, and those companies have the power to squash the ones that do have quality products.

Is it possible to be a believe in capitalism, but not big business? LOL.
He (or the government) would not determine which artist gets more than another or who climbs up the ladder to become a CEO. Consumers and businesses would still make those decisions. Everyone would get the exact same amount of basic income.
 
Orion Bailey, I read your post but my torn rotator cuff is screaming at me so I need to stay off keyboards. I will get back to you in a few days.
 
Orion Bailey, I read your post but my torn rotator cuff is screaming at me so I need to stay off keyboards. I will get back to you in a few days.
My wife has too torn rotator cuffs. She got one surgically repaired but, because of the painful and extensive recovery from the surgery and the fact that she got minimal relief, she refuses to get the other one repaired.
 
OK, @Orion Bailey. I am going to answer.

First, this is not directly about the campaign, but you talked about why should you pay for people's bad choices. Have you noticed when someone says bad choices they nearly always mean someone who is poor, usually a woman, frequently woman of color? Although the biggest determiner of poverty is being born into a poor family, something no one chooses.

I don't know your position on reproductive choice, but I know that the individuals and politicians who want to outlaw birth control and abortion, and oppose sex education, are the first to scream about women making "poor choices" when they have children, and oppose any program to help mothers and their children.

We don't hear about the poor choices of a rich white man who fakes a medical record to get out of the draft, is repeatedly bailed out by daddy, declares bankruptcy six times, cheats contractors and employees, is fined millions of dollars for fraud, and sexually assaults women; we hear he is his own man who doesn't have to follow rules. Even god-like.

If a rich kid has a drug problem they go into expensive rehab, if a poor kid does they go to prison. They both made the same "bad choice".

I also don't have children. But I know that society benefits when children are well fed, healthy, and educated - and those children are more likely to rise out of poverty.

You say life should not be easy. What planet are you on? Ever had to take half your prescription meds because you couldn't afford all? Ever had to choose between food & paying the phone bill? Ever had to live in a car or on someone's couch because you were laid off and your pay was so low that even if you get unemployment it won't cover rent? Ever had an employer tell you they want to hire a man or that an employee with a disability is too much trouble? Ever had to let your teeth go because you couldn't get dental care?

We are not wild animals (and even many wild animals live in groups where they take care of young and old members). We are civilized human beings, at least theoretically. You might recall hearing about "social contract" in school. It's the idea that we all participate in caring for those who need care (children, sick, elderly, etc) and that there might be a time when we need help. It's the idea behind paying into social security.

Even if you think people deserve to suffer for what you call "poor choices", their children didn't ask to be born into "poor choice" families, will you punish them?

Now, as to who pays. You probably know many of the largest corporations like Amazon pay NO federal income tax. A lot of them get returns. Billionaires pay a lower federal tax rate than poor people. Throw in the bloated military budget, more than the rest of the world combined, and there's the money.

Most of us admired Paul Allen and there was a lot to like. But at his death he had a reported worth of $25 billion. Honestly, who needs that? He could have had 10% of that and been very very wealthy, able to have sports teams, yachts, houses, private jets, anything he wanted, and the country would have $23.5 billion for schools, housing, developing renewable energy. That illustrates the price society pays when wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Warren does not propose any such radical expropriation. She proposes a wealth tax. The first $50 million a person owns would be exempt, so we are talking about the 1% of the 1%. After $50 million, they are taxed two cents on the dollar. That's hardly socialism, they would still have tons and tons of money. But so would the rest of us.

Next time Forbes comes out with their list of billionaires, get a calculator, or a pen and paper if you're good at math, and do the calculation.

Although frankly if you ask me whether I'd rather pay for another nuclear weapon, Trump's golf outings, or preschool, I'd pick preschool any day.

One more thing about Senator Warren. We hear a lot about "electability", which usually translates into old white male (hetero and Christian, so sorry Bernie). She has both former Hillary Clinton supporters and former Bernie Sanders supporters on her campaign, do you know how rare that is? Sanders supporters still think Democratic leadership put their thumbs on the scale for Clinton; Clinton supporters can't forgive the Bernie bros who sat out the election or even voted for Trump. I know Sanders supporters who said they absolutely would not vote for Biden, one even told me if Biden was nominated then Trump should be re-elected because people would deserve to suffer, kid you not. Clinton supporters would probably vote for Sanders if he was the nominee but would not campaign for him. Warren can bridge the two wings. Maybe you don't care about that so much.
 
OK, @Orion Bailey.

Most of us admired Paul Allen and there was a lot to like. But at his death he had a reported worth of $25 billion. Honestly, who needs that? He could have had 10% of that and been very very wealthy, able to have sports teams, yachts, houses, private jets, anything he wanted, and the country would have $23.5 billion for schools, housing, developing renewable energy. That illustrates the price society pays when wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Warren does not propose any such radical expropriation. She proposes a wealth tax. The first $50 million a person owns would be exempt, so we are talking about the 1% of the 1%. After $50 million, they are taxed two cents on the dollar. That's hardly socialism, they would still have tons and tons of money. But so would the rest of us.

Warren's wealth tax is my biggest heartburn with her platform. It's based on the notion that billionaires just have loads of cash in the bank that the government can appropriate without any impact on the economy. That's just pure nonsense. Bill Gates has a net worth of approximately $106 billion, so a 2% wealth tax would require a tax payment of around $2.1 billion. His wealth is invested in stocks in multiple businesses. To pull $2.1 billion out to pay his tax bill, he would have to sell a whole bunch of stock. What do you suppose that's going to do to the stock market when that impact, coupled with Jeff Bezos and a slew of other extremely wealthy cats who would be similarly in need of getting some liquidity, try to dump a significant chunk of their assets in order to pay their tax bill? And when the market crashes, do you think it's primarily the fat cats who are going to feel the impacts?

There's also the crazy difficulty of assessing how much these people are worth at any given moment. Their stock portfolios can go up and down millions of dollars in a single day. And then there's the whole constitutionality question of taxing basic wealth. There are multiple opinions about whether Warren's wealth tax is a "direct tax" that is prohibited by the constitution, but you can bet that the issue would be tied up in court so long that she'd never see a nickel in her first term of the bonanza of tax dollars that she envisions to fund her platform of wealth transfer ideas.

Don't get me wrong, the wealthy don't pay enough taxes in this country and I have no objection to shifting the tax burden more their direction, but I think that Warren's platform is based on a fatally flawed tax scheme.
 
Lol. We can’t tax Bill Gates because it would be very inconvenient. He’d have to sell stock and stuff.
 
Warren's wealth tax is my biggest heartburn with her platform. It's based on the notion that billionaires just have loads of cash in the bank that the government can appropriate without any impact on the economy. That's just pure nonsense. Bill Gates has a net worth of approximately $106 billion, so a 2% wealth tax would require a tax payment of around $2.1 billion. His wealth is invested in stocks in multiple businesses. To pull $2.1 billion out to pay his tax bill, he would have to sell a whole bunch of stock. What do you suppose that's going to do to the stock market when that impact, coupled with Jeff Bezos and a slew of other extremely wealthy cats who would be similarly in need of getting some liquidity, try to dump a significant chunk of their assets in order to pay their tax bill? And when the market crashes, do you think it's primarily the fat cats who are going to feel the impacts?

There's also the crazy difficulty of assessing how much these people are worth at any given moment. Their stock portfolios can go up and down millions of dollars in a single day. And then there's the whole constitutionality question of taxing basic wealth. There are multiple opinions about whether Warren's wealth tax is a "direct tax" that is prohibited by the constitution, but you can bet that the issue would be tied up in court so long that she'd never see a nickel in her first term of the bonanza of tax dollars that she envisions to fund her platform of wealth transfer ideas.

Don't get me wrong, the wealthy don't pay enough taxes in this country and I have no objection to shifting the tax burden more their direction, but I think that Warren's platform is based on a fatally flawed tax scheme.

Actually, Bill would pay $6B, according to Warren: https://elizabethwarren.com/calculator/ultra-millionaire-tax

And he doesn't necessarily mind, although he doesn't endorse Warren's specific wealth tax. He thinks billionaires should pay more, and is ok with a wealth tax:

Other steps toward a fairer tax system include removing the cap on how much income is subject to Medicare taxes, closing the carried-interest loophole that allows investment-fund managers to pay the lower capital gains rate on their income, and taxing large fortunes that have been held for a long time (say, ten years or more). Very wealthy people often have large investments they’ve held for long periods, and if those investments aren’t sold or traded, the money is never taxed. That doesn’t make sense.

You are probably right about the court cases that would result, but that doesn't matter anymore. Article 2 of the constitution says the president can do whatever she wants.

barfo
 
Actually, Bill would pay $6B, according to Warren: https://elizabethwarren.com/calculator/ultra-millionaire-tax

And he doesn't necessarily mind, although he doesn't endorse Warren's specific wealth tax. He thinks billionaires should pay more, and is ok with a wealth tax:



You are probably right about the court cases that would result, but that doesn't matter anymore. Article 2 of the constitution says the president can do whatever she wants.

barfo

I think several billionaires agree that they should pay more. (Nobody is stopping them from writing the IRS a nice fat check, BTW). I'm not sure that quote you give is exactly Bill giving a carte blanch endorsement of Warren's tax proposal though. You and I both know it would have zero chance of getting through Congress anyway. I imagine she knows that too. Which makes her Oprah-esque promises (You get a car, and you get a car, and ...) all the more disingenuous.
 
I think several billionaires agree that they should pay more. (Nobody is stopping them from writing the IRS a nice fat check, BTW).

Bill actually addresses this:

When I say the government needs to raise more money, some people ask why Melinda and I don’t voluntarily pay more in taxes than the law requires. The answer is that simply leaving it up to people to give more than the government asks for is not a scalable solution. People pay taxes as an obligation of law and citizenship, not out of charity. Additional voluntary giving will never raise enough money for everything the government needs to do. If Melinda and I signed over our foundation’s entire endowment to the state of California, it wouldn’t be enough to fund their public schools for even one year. A vibrant economic system depends on setting expectations for who pays how much.

I'm not sure that quote you give is exactly Bill giving a carte blanch endorsement of Warren's tax proposal though.

I stipulated that he does NOT endorse her exact proposal.

You and I both know it would have zero chance of getting through Congress anyway. I imagine she knows that too. Which makes her Oprah-esque promises (You get a car, and you get a car, and ...) all the more disingenuous.

President is all-powerful now. Congress can suck it. When you are elected they let you do it.

barfo
 
I think several billionaires agree that they should pay more. (Nobody is stopping them from writing the IRS a nice fat check, BTW). I'm not sure that quote you give is exactly Bill giving a carte blanch endorsement of Warren's tax proposal though. You and I both know it would have zero chance of getting through Congress anyway. I imagine she knows that too. Which makes her Oprah-esque promises (You get a car, and you get a car, and ...) all the more disingenuous.

I don't get this. Regardless of income/wealth, who, in their right mind, would willfully pay more taxes than they are required to?
 
I don't get this. Regardless of income/wealth, who, in their right mind, would willfully pay more taxes than they are required to?

Both Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, and probably some others I don’t remember, have said that they wouldn’t mind paying more in taxes. Nobody’s stopping them, but I agree that they aren’t likely to send Uncle Sam more than is required.

As I said elsewhere, I agree the wealthy should pay more. I just don’t think the wealth tax is a wise, or probably legal, way to go.
 
Both Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, and probably some others I don’t remember, have said that they wouldn’t mind paying more in taxes. Nobody’s stopping them, but I agree that they aren’t likely to send Uncle Sam more than is required.

As I said elsewhere, I agree the wealthy should pay more. I just don’t think the wealth tax is a wise, or probably legal, way to go.
Someone saying "they mind paying more taxes" is a lot different than actually wanting to pay more by being taxed by the IRS and therefore being required to pay more taxes

Gates, Buffet, and others saying such things sounds admirable but I think it's sort of a "left handed offer" and not at all sincere...anyway I think it's somewhat of a moot point.
 
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OK, @Orion Bailey. I am going to answer.

First, this is not directly about the campaign, but you talked about why should you pay for people's bad choices. Have you noticed when someone says bad choices they nearly always mean someone who is poor, usually a woman, frequently woman of color? Although the biggest determiner of poverty is being born into a poor family, something no one chooses.

I don't know your position on reproductive choice, but I know that the individuals and politicians who want to outlaw birth control and abortion, and oppose sex education, are the first to scream about women making "poor choices" when they have children, and oppose any program to help mothers and their children.

We don't hear about the poor choices of a rich white man who fakes a medical record to get out of the draft, is repeatedly bailed out by daddy, declares bankruptcy six times, cheats contractors and employees, is fined millions of dollars for fraud, and sexually assaults women; we hear he is his own man who doesn't have to follow rules. Even god-like.

If a rich kid has a drug problem they go into expensive rehab, if a poor kid does they go to prison. They both made the same "bad choice".

I also don't have children. But I know that society benefits when children are well fed, healthy, and educated - and those children are more likely to rise out of poverty.

You say life should not be easy. What planet are you on? Ever had to take half your prescription meds because you couldn't afford all? Ever had to choose between food & paying the phone bill? Ever had to live in a car or on someone's couch because you were laid off and your pay was so low that even if you get unemployment it won't cover rent? Ever had an employer tell you they want to hire a man or that an employee with a disability is too much trouble? Ever had to let your teeth go because you couldn't get dental care?

We are not wild animals (and even many wild animals live in groups where they take care of young and old members). We are civilized human beings, at least theoretically. You might recall hearing about "social contract" in school. It's the idea that we all participate in caring for those who need care (children, sick, elderly, etc) and that there might be a time when we need help. It's the idea behind paying into social security.

Even if you think people deserve to suffer for what you call "poor choices", their children didn't ask to be born into "poor choice" families, will you punish them?

Now, as to who pays. You probably know many of the largest corporations like Amazon pay NO federal income tax. A lot of them get returns. Billionaires pay a lower federal tax rate than poor people. Throw in the bloated military budget, more than the rest of the world combined, and there's the money.

Most of us admired Paul Allen and there was a lot to like. But at his death he had a reported worth of $25 billion. Honestly, who needs that? He could have had 10% of that and been very very wealthy, able to have sports teams, yachts, houses, private jets, anything he wanted, and the country would have $23.5 billion for schools, housing, developing renewable energy. That illustrates the price society pays when wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Warren does not propose any such radical expropriation. She proposes a wealth tax. The first $50 million a person owns would be exempt, so we are talking about the 1% of the 1%. After $50 million, they are taxed two cents on the dollar. That's hardly socialism, they would still have tons and tons of money. But so would the rest of us.

Next time Forbes comes out with their list of billionaires, get a calculator, or a pen and paper if you're good at math, and do the calculation.

Although frankly if you ask me whether I'd rather pay for another nuclear weapon, Trump's golf outings, or preschool, I'd pick preschool any day.

One more thing about Senator Warren. We hear a lot about "electability", which usually translates into old white male (hetero and Christian, so sorry Bernie). She has both former Hillary Clinton supporters and former Bernie Sanders supporters on her campaign, do you know how rare that is? Sanders supporters still think Democratic leadership put their thumbs on the scale for Clinton; Clinton supporters can't forgive the Bernie bros who sat out the election or even voted for Trump. I know Sanders supporters who said they absolutely would not vote for Biden, one even told me if Biden was nominated then Trump should be re-elected because people would deserve to suffer, kid you not. Clinton supporters would probably vote for Sanders if he was the nominee but would not campaign for him. Warren can bridge the two wings. Maybe you don't care about that so much.

let me digest this and get you a detailed response. :). I appreciate the feedback and want to debate ideologies in hopes ww can both come away better people with better logic. :)

Also. Ready for another shirt? Im def ready for more cookies!!! Lol

ill have more time tonight to put real thought into your response. :)
 
OK, @Orion Bailey. I am going to answer.

First, this is not directly about the campaign, but you talked about why should you pay for people's bad choices. Have you noticed when someone says bad choices they nearly always mean someone who is poor, usually a woman, frequently woman of color? Although the biggest determiner of poverty is being born into a poor family, something no one chooses.

Though this may be true, this is not me. Many people equate poverty to poor choices. I don't. Yes, there are some who live in poverty due to poor choices, but it is not just the poverty stricken who I refer to when I say poor choices. Some are also victim of circumstance and parental suppression.

I don't know your position on reproductive choice, but I know that the individuals and politicians who want to outlaw birth control and abortion, and oppose sex education, are the first to scream about women making "poor choices" when they have children, and oppose any program to help mothers and their children.

I'm all for birth control, and though I don't agree with abortion other than certain circumstances, I will defend the right of the woman to make the choice herself. It's her body and future as much as the unborn.


We don't hear about the poor choices of a rich white man who fakes a medical record to get out of the draft, is repeatedly bailed out by daddy, declares bankruptcy six times, cheats contractors and employees, is fined millions of dollars for fraud, and sexually assaults women; we hear he is his own man who doesn't have to follow rules. Even god-like.

If a rich kid has a drug problem they go into expensive rehab, if a poor kid does they go to prison. They both made the same "bad choice".

These are some of the poor choices i mean, though by far not all.
Okay, now lets pinpoint. Drug addiction is a huge component to crimes of theft and robbery. I think we need to attack drug addiction through education and isolation. Across the board, rich or poor. It's negative impact on society is huge. BUT, we need a MAJOR reclassification and dissection of drugs in general. They have mostly been classified as various forms of narcotics for decades even though science and study has revealed many more facets than just saying, marijuana is marijuana, for example.

I also don't have children. But I know that society benefits when children are well fed, healthy, and educated - and those children are more likely to rise out of poverty.

I 100% agree. It's the method in which we hand out help that i'm in disagreement with. Their is a big black market on welfare stamps, for example. We can change the ways in which we investigate families to determine their true needs, vs just handing out credits for the families to spend how they see fit, which often isn't fit at all. Let's study the family and determine their needs for adequate survival of their basic nutrition and well being. Let's then provide those credits directly to the services, like the electrical companies, and lets have the basic healthy foods needs for their family delivered to them.

You say life should not be easy. What planet are you on? Ever had to take half your prescription meds because you couldn't afford all? Ever had to choose between food & paying the phone bill? Ever had to live in a car or on someone's couch because you were laid off and your pay was so low that even if you get unemployment it won't cover rent? Ever had an employer tell you they want to hire a man or that an employee with a disability is too much trouble? Ever had to let your teeth go because you couldn't get dental care?

What planet am I on? The one that didn't have a prescription drug plan up until what... 100 years ago? But we survived and thrived. Am I saying we are fine without prescription drugs? No way. But if you think that's the end all, im sorry, MANY MANY MANY people lived and walk this earth without ANY meds at all. My teeth are shit because I didn't have dental care for a long time. Ive had to live in my car for over a month.
Sorry. These are first world problems for the easy going American lifestyle Try giving these complaints to the tribes of Africa... Tell this to Lewis & Clark....
I'm not saying life should be super difficult. I'm saying I believe the point of life is to find your passion, goal, dream and work as hard as you can to go after it. Because of all of our outside influences and entertainment options, we are no longer as creative and just sit back and expect things to come to us.


We are not wild animals (and even many wild animals live in groups where they take care of young and old members). We are civilized human beings, at least theoretically. You might recall hearing about "social contract" in school. It's the idea that we all participate in caring for those who need care (children, sick, elderly, etc) and that there might be a time when we need help. It's the idea behind paying into social security.

Sure, and essential to any community. But in the animal kingdom, all animals work hard and have a purpose. You don't see two of them laying around all day eating yesterdays kill(cake and ice cream, while the other two go hunt every day(work their ass off).

Even if you think people deserve to suffer for what you call "poor choices", their children didn't ask to be born into "poor choice" families, will you punish them?

I agree 100% and believe that the only way to improve things is to make sure we break the cycle for the children and that means making sure, even if the parent wants to spend the aid wisely, we bypass their choice and make sure the child is taken care of in another way, like I hinted earlier.

Now, as to who pays. You probably know many of the largest corporations like Amazon pay NO federal income tax. A lot of them get returns. Billionaires pay a lower federal tax rate than poor people. Throw in the bloated military budget, more than the rest of the world combined, and there's the money.

I don't disagree with that. I suppose it would take adding up the costs of providing true healthy aid to those in true need vs the spending cuts and how deep they would need to go into the military funding. Very open for debate in my book though. As far as the corporations, I agree as well they should be paying more. But expect those taxes to be past onto both their employees and consumers.

Most of us admired Paul Allen and there was a lot to like. But at his death he had a reported worth of $25 billion. Honestly, who needs that? He could have had 10% of that and been very very wealthy, able to have sports teams, yachts, houses, private jets, anything he wanted, and the country would have $23.5 billion for schools, housing, developing renewable energy. That illustrates the price society pays when wealth is concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. Warren does not propose any such radical expropriation. She proposes a wealth tax. The first $50 million a person owns would be exempt, so we are talking about the 1% of the 1%. After $50 million, they are taxed two cents on the dollar. That's hardly socialism, they would still have tons and tons of money. But so would the rest of us.

Next time Forbes comes out with their list of billionaires, get a calculator, or a pen and paper if you're good at math, and do the calculation.

This is a dangerous line. Go after the corporations they own sure, but after the bottom line, you are treading ground on undermining the fundamentals of capitalism. If someone invents or creates something that changes the world, they have the full right to reap the profits and do with it to which they please. The key isn't taking away the money from the uber wealthy. That will just make them greedier and more defiant. We have to educate them on the fact that if they don't help the world with their massive accounts, it will hurt us all and them in the long run. Who wants to be the rich guy living in a world of post civil war chaos? We cant, however force this gift from the wealthy, it must truly be a gift.

Although frankly if you ask me whether I'd rather pay for another nuclear weapon, Trump's golf outings, or preschool, I'd pick preschool any day.

I'm not sure who wouldn't.

One more thing about Senator Warren. We hear a lot about "electability", which usually translates into old white male (hetero and Christian, so sorry Bernie). She has both former Hillary Clinton supporters and former Bernie Sanders supporters on her campaign, do you know how rare that is? Sanders supporters still think Democratic leadership put their thumbs on the scale for Clinton; Clinton supporters can't forgive the Bernie bros who sat out the election or even voted for Trump. I know Sanders supporters who said they absolutely would not vote for Biden, one even told me if Biden was nominated then Trump should be re-elected because people would deserve to suffer, kid you not. Clinton supporters would probably vote for Sanders if he was the nominee but would not campaign for him. Warren can bridge the two wings. Maybe you don't care about that so much.

I don't want anyone to live in poverty, especially children. But the reality is, some people are able to exercise better judgement than others, resulting in more profit. Profit of money, profit of life, health, you name it.

Social Security Reform
Welfare Reform
Health Care Reform
Government form and filing reform

These are things that have been in need for decades now. They all used to be part of the platform of which candidates would use in campaigning. Yes they cost money, but at least then we knew that if needed to fix it before it even costs more. Now, aside from Health Care, they are hardly mentioned, but the SSA funds will run out at its pace. Welfare has virtually zero tracking for the spending of the aid they hand out. Getting a grip on these administrations, and cross referencing them, so the paperwork and information can be utilized much more efficiently. These are the things I want to see a candidate campaign on and try to tackle.
 
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He (or the government) would not determine which artist gets more than another or who climbs up the ladder to become a CEO. Consumers and businesses would still make those decisions. Everyone would get the exact same amount of basic income.

I will watch again and some more. I have another interview link saved that I wanted to watch but ran out of time.
 
You asked me to sell you on a better plan and I tried to do so, so this is my last contribution.

Agree, drug laws are archaic and badly in need of reform.

True, a poor person in the US is better off than a poor person in, say, Somalia. So what? How destitute does a poor person have to be to satisfy you that they are not living soft? It's like you tell a rape victim you were only raped by one man, some women are raped by ten men, so shut up and stop crying, bitch.

Yes, animals "work" in the sense they need to feed themselves, and, in some cases, their offspring. But animals don't work on plantations or in factories, they don't toil while others sip daiquiris on the veranda. Once they are fed, they stop "work" until they need to eat again. There are no animal slavemasters, kings, feudal lords, billionaires. The nearest thing in animal world are the drones in social insects, males who do no work but exist solely to fertilize the queen. Insects have no choice. We do. The ones who live soft off other people's work aren't poor people.

You claim you are not equating poverty and bad choices, but you want to scrutinize how poor people spend their money. Why not assess how well the rich spent what they got in their trillion dollar tax cut, especially since Trump has promised an even bigger tax cut for the rich? Why not prohibit them from using their tax cut, that we all pay for, on safari hunting where very rich Westerners pay desperately poor countries to slaughter endangered animals? Why not demand their new yachts be energy efficient?

We have always had wealth inequality in this country but it has exploded in the last 40 years or so, starting with Reagan era tax cut that heavily favored the wealthy, and increasing exponentially ever since. The idea that the very wealthy should pay their fair share suddenly became an outrage and to this day we are supposed to be appalled that rich should pay more taxes. This country had greater growth and more equitable growth when the rich did pay higher taxes; countries in Western Europe have pulled ahead of the US in many social indicators in large part because they have less inequality.

I am reminded of the end of Lord of the Rings (book, not movie) when Sam is holding the ring and realizing how powerful it is and how much power it could give him. Then his "good sound Hobbit sense" comes to his aid. "For him, a garden to work with his own two hands, not a garden grown to the size of a realm that others work at his command." Maybe we all need some good sound Hobbit sense. Because no one needs $25 billion, $50 billion, $100 billion. No one.

Do you honestly think Bill Gates and Paul Allen would not have created Microsoft if they thought their personal fortunes would stop at, say, $5 billion?

So, your choice, @Orion Bailey. If you want to vote for a rude, crude, vicious, vulgar, stupid, ignorant, incompetent, utterly corrupt narcissist who cares for nothing but his ego and his wealth, who promises another tax cut for the rich but is taking school lunches from close to a million American children, who puts children in cages and sexually assaults women, who calls anything that does not praise him fake news, who kowtows to Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin, well, you still have that choice. We still have elections. Do you trust Trump to keep them free and fair?

One more point. Donald Trump is now the most powerful president in the history of the United States of America. He has absolutely no moral compass; he has said, and believes, that he can do anything he wants. He has said, falsely, that Article 2 of the Constitution, which he has not read, gives the president the right to do anything. And now the Senate majority is going along with it. They are saying he can break laws, lie, harm allies, endanger national security, corrupt elections, and it's just fine as long as they get right wing judges, tax cuts for the rich, and most of all stay in power. The Attorney General, who although appointed by the president is supposed to work for we the people, concurs; not only does he claim the president has absolute immunity to do anything, he also intends to use the Department of Justice, the full weight of the federal government, to go after Trump's opponents. Is this the man you want to give this power to?

Your choice. I'm out.
 
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You asked me to sell you on a better plan and I tried to do so, so this is my last contribution.

Agree, drug laws are archaic and badly in need of reform.

True, a poor person in the US is better off than a poor person in, say, Somalia. So what? How destitute does a poor person have to be to satisfy you that they are not living soft? It's like you tell a rape victim you were only raped by one man, some women are raped by ten men, so shut up and stop crying, bitch.

Yes, animals "work" in the sense they need to feed themselves, and, in some cases, their offspring. But animals don't work on plantations or in factories, they don't toil while others sip daiquiris on the veranda. Once they are fed, they stop "work" until they need to eat again. There are no animal slavemasters, kings, feudal lords, billionaires. The nearest thing in animal world are the drones in social insects, males who do no work but exist solely to fertilize the queen. Insects have no choice. We do. The ones who live soft off other people's work aren't poor people.

You claim you are not equating poverty and bad choices, but you want to scrutinize how poor people spend their money. Why not assess how well the rich spent what they got in their trillion dollar tax cut, especially since Trump has promised an even bigger tax cut for the rich? Why not prohibit them from using their tax cut, that we all pay for, on safari hunting where very rich Westerners pay desperately poor countries to slaughter endangered animals? Why not demand their new yachts be energy efficient?

We have always had wealth inequality in this country but it has exploded in the last 40 years or so, starting with Reagan era tax cut that heavily favored the wealthy, and increasing exponentially ever since. The idea that the very wealthy should pay their fair share suddenly became an outrage and to this day we are supposed to be appalled that rich should pay more taxes. This country had greater growth and more equitable growth when the rich did pay higher taxes; countries in Western Europe have pulled ahead of the US in many social indicators in large part because they have less inequality.

I am reminded of the end of Lord of the Rings (book, not movie) when Sam is holding the ring and realizing how powerful it is and how much power it could give him. Then his "good sound Hobbit sense" comes to his aid. "For him, a garden to work with his own two hands, not a garden grown to the size of a realm that others work at his command." Maybe we all need some good sound Hobbit sense. Because no one needs $25 billion, $50 billion, $100 billion. No one.

Do you honestly think Bill Gates and Paul Allen would not have created Microsoft if they thought their personal fortunes would stop at, say, $5 billion?

So, your choice, @Orion Bailey. If you want to vote for a rude, crude, vicious, vulgar, stupid, ignorant, incompetent, utterly corrupt narcissist who cares for nothing but his ego and his wealth, who promises another tax cut for the rich but is taking school lunches from close to a million American children, who puts children in cages and sexually assaults women, who calls anything that does not praise him fake news, who kowtows to Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin, well, you still have that choice. We still have elections. Do you trust Trump to keep them free and fair?

One more point. Donald Trump is now the most powerful president in the history of the United States of America. He has absolutely no moral compass; he has said, and believes, that he can do anything he wants. He has said, falsely, that Article 2 of the Constitution, which he has not read, gives the president the right to do anything. And now the Senate majority is going along with it. They are saying he can break laws, lie, harm allies, endanger national security, corrupt elections, and it's just fine as long as they get right wing judges, tax cuts for the rich, and most of all stay in power. The Attorney General, who although appointed by the president is supposed to work for we the people, concurs; not only does he claim the president has absolute immunity to do anything, he also intends to use the Department of Justice, the full weight of the federal government, to go after Trump's opponents. Is this the man you want to give this power to?

Your choice. I'm out.
Wow, what a fantastic post. Brava.
 
You asked me to sell you on a better plan and I tried to do so, so this is my last contribution.

Agree, drug laws are archaic and badly in need of reform.

True, a poor person in the US is better off than a poor person in, say, Somalia. So what? How destitute does a poor person have to be to satisfy you that they are not living soft? It's like you tell a rape victim you were only raped by one man, some women are raped by ten men, so shut up and stop crying, bitch.

Yes, animals "work" in the sense they need to feed themselves, and, in some cases, their offspring. But animals don't work on plantations or in factories, they don't toil while others sip daiquiris on the veranda. Once they are fed, they stop "work" until they need to eat again. There are no animal slavemasters, kings, feudal lords, billionaires. The nearest thing in animal world are the drones in social insects, males who do no work but exist solely to fertilize the queen. Insects have no choice. We do. The ones who live soft off other people's work aren't poor people.

Good points. But you still seem to think that I equate all poor the same and I said I didn't at all? I still stand by my opinion that some of the poor are poor because of their choices in life.

You claim you are not equating poverty and bad choices, but you want to scrutinize how poor people spend their money. Why not assess how well the rich spent what they got in their trillion dollar tax cut, especially since Trump has promised an even bigger tax cut for the rich? Why not prohibit them from using their tax cut, that we all pay for, on safari hunting where very rich Westerners pay desperately poor countries to slaughter endangered animals? Why not demand their new yachts be energy efficient?

If someone makes enough money to spend it foolishly, but doesn't abuse government aid, then it is their freedom of choice to spend it as they like and if/when they blow it all they have no one to blame but themselves. Regarding legal tax cuts, I cant blame a rich person for utilizing something that has been voted in. That is something, I take up with my elected officials. Now I am with you. I think we need a tax overhaul; that includes another 1% tax increase on anyone making 1 million a year or more, a 3% increase on anyone making 10 million or more and a 5% increase on anyone making 100 mill a year or more. That's actually a substantial amount of revenue that could then pay to repair and upgrade many of our infrastructures like roads and bridges, power plants, damns, etc.
Combine that with getting rid of the corporate loopholes for any companies showing a net profit quadruple the loophole or more. So, after paying all bills and wages, if they make 4 or more times the write off they were eligible for previously, they are no longer. This will ensure we can still give help to start up companies, but allow larger, more profitable companies to pay their share. Here is another one. Why don't we tax companies that ship by the shipment based on a percentage of estimated wear and tear on the highways? So those who bring in more semis into their facilities, pay more in logistical taxation. I bet we aren't so far off on our thoughts when it comes to tax write offs for the corporate world and the rich. :)

We have always had wealth inequality in this country but it has exploded in the last 40 years or so, starting with Reagan era tax cut that heavily favored the wealthy, and increasing exponentially ever since. The idea that the very wealthy should pay their fair share suddenly became an outrage and to this day we are supposed to be appalled that rich should pay more taxes. This country had greater growth and more equitable growth when the rich did pay higher taxes; countries in Western Europe have pulled ahead of the US in many social indicators in large part because they have less inequality.

You are not far off here (Not saying you are anywhere else, lol):

fig2-1.png

Sorry for the size, couldn't get it smaller. Anyhow you can see, you are not far off. A 10% decrease in the bottom 90% since 89'. What I find interesting is that the top 10 percent have not joined up and morphing into one class. And it looks more like two classes. The top 10% rich and the bottom 90% poor. This is indeed alarming. HOWEVER, what I see in this graph is even though the bottom 90% is continually declining, it isn't as sharp, during the republican years. For example. Look at the start of 1989 and into 1993. It is on the slight incline. That is the end of Regan, beginning of Bush Sr. Then it dives more from 1993-2001, during Clinton's admin. Now Look at 2002-2004. There was actually a slight incline. That was when Bush JR was president. You can then follow the increase of the top 1% and it roughly has the same pattern, though does take a good dive during the Clinton admin during his second term. Other than that, the increase line up fairly closely to that of the Dems years in office. So, though I do agree with you that the separation is increasing and alarming, I do not agree this is by the republicans doing alone. It is clear by the graph above, that the dems have at least some of it to answer for if not the majority of it.

I am reminded of the end of Lord of the Rings (book, not movie) when Sam is holding the ring and realizing how powerful it is and how much power it could give him. Then his "good sound Hobbit sense" comes to his aid. "For him, a garden to work with his own two hands, not a garden grown to the size of a realm that others work at his command." Maybe we all need some good sound Hobbit sense. Because no one needs $25 billion, $50 billion, $100 billion. No one.

Do you honestly think Bill Gates and Paul Allen would not have created Microsoft if they thought their personal fortunes would stop at, say, $5 billion?

I'm not sure what you mean by stopping. No I don't think they would, but i'm also not sure of the relevance? Fact is, whether someone needs money or not, if they legally earned it, its theirs to do with as they wish. I'm by no means, rich, but I hold no grudges against the rich for being rich.

So, your choice, @Orion Bailey. If you want to vote for a rude, crude, vicious, vulgar, stupid, ignorant, incompetent, utterly corrupt narcissist who cares for nothing but his ego and his wealth, who promises another tax cut for the rich but is taking school lunches from close to a million American children, who puts children in cages and sexually assaults women, who calls anything that does not praise him fake news, who kowtows to Kim Jong Un and Vladimir Putin, well, you still have that choice. We still have elections. Do you trust Trump to keep them free and fair?

This isn't about Trump. It isn't about Polozi, or Romney and it isn't about Yang or Warren. This is about idealogies. Or that is my intent. I want to keep current politicians running or in office out of it unless it has to do with their political ideologies. rude, crude, vulgar, stupid, etc, are opinion words based on biased viewpoints that could be used for many politicians on both sides of the isle. Clinton had his dick sucked in the white house for cryin out loud. I don't linger on it, but its a double standard to me when I hear about his crude behavior from people who supported Clinton( I supported Clinton btw.) If we are ever going to break out of this standoff we have before all out civil war and anarchy comes, we need to start calling apples apples and oranges oranges. Stop dismissing one act while condemning another act, when they are the same thing! This craziness that Trump is the evil end all is ridiculous and I remember hearing the same thing about Bush Jr. Guess what? We got through it!!!!!!

If people would put as much energy into pushing a legit ideological agenda aimed at improving our future instead of getting people to hate trump.. HE WOULD LOSE THE ELECTION! But I don't want to vote for a party or group of people who show sooo much anger and hostility towards someone, no matter WHAT he has done. It's a sign of biased opinions that feed into illogical actions, more often than not. Would you listen to someone who sounds like they have just been sexually violated, or robbed, or kidnapped?

That is what some people sound like when they describe their dislike of Trump, and I don't find it stable. Just look at the Iowa Caucus.

For as much as I don't care for Trumps antics.. They are just antics and Dems fall for it every time. I'm tired of the bitching. I'm tired of the end all statements about being evil if you vote for him, i'm tired of the blanket hatred without the ability to debate thoughts.

One more point. Donald Trump is now the most powerful president in the history of the United States of America. He has absolutely no moral compass; he has said, and believes, that he can do anything he wants. He has said, falsely, that Article 2 of the Constitution, which he has not read, gives the president the right to do anything. And now the Senate majority is going along with it. They are saying he can break laws, lie, harm allies, endanger national security, corrupt elections, and it's just fine as long as they get right wing judges, tax cuts for the rich, and most of all stay in power. The Attorney General, who although appointed by the president is supposed to work for we the people, concurs; not only does he claim the president has absolute immunity to do anything, he also intends to use the Department of Justice, the full weight of the federal government, to go after Trump's opponents. Is this the man you want to give this power to?

First sentence. Would getting fellatio in the white house be considered having a moral compass? This excuse to hate Trump is soooooo old considering..... Question. Do you think there is a chance he says some of these things because he is amused by the reactions he gets? or if he actually believes everything he says? Ill give you a hint. I say stuff.... well used to say stuff all the time around here that I didn't believe, just to get a rise out of someone who I thought would take it literally and get their feathers ruffled. Didn't really pan out all that well for me and it probably wont for him either, but I don't believe he believes everything he says. I think he is just tossing the lure in the water and waiting for a nibble.
But again, it shouldn't be about him He isn't republicanism. He is the current sitting president and can only be so for a max of 5 more years. Even if he is reelected, I do not believe it to be the end of the world, like some would have it seem. That is the beauty of our system. No one gets to sit in power for too long.


Your choice. I'm out.

we all have choices. I'm choosing to try to better understand why you are a democrat and you have provided some good answers. I have enjoyed our conversation so far, so I hope you choose to continue. This real.y isn't about me. It isn't about you either. It's about trying to better understand others whom we have differences of opinions on, rather than choosing a hostile path that further separates us all and continues us on the path of frustration, anger and violence. I originally wanted to try to have this discussion with @Stevenson and @calvin natt, but they chose to not participate do to personal reasons. You have legit opened up to me with your thoughts and ideas on things and I appreciate that. Its only in doing so cna we come close together as humans even when we agree to disagree on certain things. :)

And, I will get you a shirt for sure I promise. When I get the next one it will be in your size and Ill send it off. :)

Thanks for the debate Crandt, I hope we can continue. :)
 
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I am devoting my time to campaigning for a candidate with a better plan, Elizabeth Warren, and the garden I work with my own two hands.

And Lucia of course.

All more important than repeating myself here.
 

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