Serious question

[maxiep]

I always hear we can't deport all illegal immigrants. Why not? Are we really incapable of deporting 11MM-14MM people?

I'm not talking about the moral issue, or the disruption in society, I'm talking about our ability to do so.

Here's another one: Why can't we build a double fence along the entirety of our southern border?

It seems to me until we control our illegal alien problem, through border security and deporting people who are here illegally, we really can't address our immigration issues (which, I think, are horribly broken).

 

[BlazerWookee]

My first response to anyone who says we can't deport all of them is "saying we can't deport all of them is a terrible reason not to deport some of them."

There is absolutely no excuse for not having a relatively impenetrable barrier along the border.

As to whether we can or why we can't deport them all, I have no idea, and I look forward to reading the responses...

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I always hear we can't deport all illegal immigrants. Why not? Are we really incapable of deporting 11MM-14MM people?

I'm not talking about the moral issue, or the disruption in society, I'm talking about our ability to do so.

Here's another one: Why can't we build a double fence along the entirety of our southern border?

It seems to me until we control our illegal alien problem, through border security and deporting people who are here illegally, we really can't address our immigration issues (which, I think, are horribly broken).

Racist! :MARIS61:

yeah, that's about the depth of the argument. either that or "the mexicans were here first, we're the illegal ones".

 

[Denny Crane]

It's a violation of international law. A war crime. Right up there with genocide (forced migration).

It's in the Geneva Conventions as well.

Article 49 of the 4th convention, to be exact.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

the problem lies in that society trys to make it hard as shit to even find out if someone is illegal or not. that's the first step, identifying illegals. I mean, it can't be that hard to just bus them to the border and force them back to mexico or wherever.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

My first response to anyone who says we can't deport all of them is "saying we can't deport all of them is a terrible reason not to deport some of them."

There is absolutely no excuse for not having a relatively impenetrable barrier along the border.

As to whether we can or why we can't deport them all, I have no idea, and I look forward to reading the responses...

"it costs too much to build a fence". the problem with "immigration reform" is that its not going to fix anything as we amnesty people, even more illegals will hop the fence hoping to get in for the "next round".

 

[Further]

I would suppose economically it would not be easy. First it costs to round them up, it costs to process them, it costs to transport them. I can't imagine that the cost wouldnt be around 5k average, and many of them would come right back. Then there is an issue of space during the processing. Are you going to let other prisoners off to free room for the millions of illegals? Next you have the issue of all the service they provide for cheap labor, picking fruit and veggies, cleaning places, and doing all sorts of other menial jobs.

I think it would devistate the economy to really deport all of them.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I would suppose economically it would not be easy. First it costs to round them up, it costs to process them, it costs to transport them. I can't imagine that the cost wouldnt be around 5k average, and many of them would come right back. Then there is an issue of space during the processing. Are you going to let other prisoners off to free room for the millions of illegals? Next you have the issue of all the service they provide for cheap labor, picking fruit and veggies, cleaning places, and doing all sorts of other menial jobs.

I think it would devistate the economy to really deport all of them.

Yes, because apples in countries that don't have illegals cost $8.00 a piece. They also don't have any maids or housekeeping services whatsoever.

 

[MARIS61]

I always hear we can't deport all illegal immigrants. Why not? Are we really incapable of deporting 11MM-14MM people?

I'm not talking about the moral issue, or the disruption in society, I'm talking about our ability to do so.

Here's another one: Why can't we build a double fence along the entirety of our southern border?

It seems to me until we control our illegal alien problem, through border security and deporting people who are here illegally, we really can't address our immigration issues (which, I think, are horribly broken).

Of course we could round-up and deport every illegal alien. Nearly all of them are on public record with their state government as being an illegal alien due to their receiving healthcare/schooling/driver's license/employment at the expense of Real Americans. I believe it could be accomplished in a matter of months by our military.

The fence would be a piece of cake to build. The US Army Corps of Engineers is by far the largest engineering/construction organization in the world. This would be child's play for them.

The reality is our government wants the chaos and crime and disenfranchisement that illegals inflict on the American working class. They are a tool used to keep the common man down, underpaid, and incapable of rising above the slave class to attain the American Dream. The 1%er's would not exist without them.

You will NEVER see our government take effective action on this matter, because it would shift control of the country back into the hands of Real Americans.

 

[maxiep]

Of course we could round-up and deport every illegal alien. Nearly all of them are on public record with their state government as being an illegal alien due to their receiving healthcare/schooling/driver's license/employment at the expense of Real Americans. I believe it could be accomplished in a matter of months by our military.

The fence would be a piece of cake to build. The US Army Corps of Engineers is by far the largest engineering/construction organization in the world. This would be child's play for them.

The reality is our government wants the chaos and crime and disenfranchisement that illegals inflict on the American working class. They are a tool used to keep the common man down, underpaid, and incapable of rising above the slave class to attain the American Dream. The 1%er's would not exist without them.

You will NEVER see our government take effective action on this matter, because it would shift control of the country back into the hands of Real Americans.

Other than your words "real Americans" I agree. I think the Democrats like the possible votes and the Republicans like the cheap labor.

We're not being well-served by our current political parties.

 

[Further]

Yes, because apples in countries that don't have illegals cost $8.00 a piece. They also don't have any maids or housekeeping services whatsoever.

The OP was asking for reasons outside of moral reasons, so I listed just a few that came to mind immediately. Nothing is impossible, they could be removed, but the cost would be very high. Most of my reasons had to do with the direct costs of arresting, adjudicating, and transporting the illegals. But those costs are real. Also, the indirect costs are real. My guess is that an apple would not cost $8, but it might go fro 30 cents up to 50 cents. And that price increase across the board would most likely mean that more of our food would be produced elsewhere and imported.

Over the long haul, it can all be done, but the direct and indirect costs would be great.

 

[MARIS61]

It's a violation of international law. A war crime. Right up there with genocide (forced migration).

It's in the Geneva Conventions as well.

Article 49 of the 4th convention, to be exact.

You're referring to the act of an organized and continual invasion of a country, right?

Build a fence, shoot anyone who climbs over it. That's what most countries do, and nobody has any problem with it.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

The OP was asking for reasons outside of moral reasons, so I listed just a few that came to mind immediately. Nothing is impossible, they could be removed, but the cost would be very high. Most of my reasons had to do with the direct costs of arresting, adjudicating, and transporting the illegals. But those costs are real. Also, the indirect costs are real. My guess is that an apple would not cost $8, but it might go fro 30 cents up to 50 cents. And that price increase across the board would most likely mean that more of our food would be produced elsewhere and imported.

Over the long haul, it can all be done, but the direct and indirect costs would be great.

Of course, quality of life may also improve since the illegals that come here are the bottom of the barrel of their respective countries and bring with them associated problems with bringing in low skilled, low educated population. So it could be a net gain. The economic good done may in fact be positive.

Deporting illegals will save money in education, crime, healthcare and the general safety of communities. Even at a cost of $5k each, it will probably be a net gain in savings when you factor in over the life of the illegal in this country, the economic damage done in terms of social services, disruption in the educational system, crimes committed, and the economic destruction of communities.

 

[Denny Crane]

You're referring to the act of an organized and continual invasion of a country, right?

Build a fence, shoot anyone who climbs over it. That's what most countries do, and nobody has any problem with it.

I'm talking about forcing 11M people to move from their homes because of their race or ethnicity.

 

[Further]

Of course, quality of life may also improve since the illegals that come here are the bottom of the barrel of their respective countries and bring with them associated problems with bringing in low skilled, low educated population. So it could be a net gain. The economic good done may in fact be positive.

Deporting illegals will save money in education, crime, healthcare and the general safety of communities. Even at a cost of $5k, it will probably be a net gain in savings.

I don't know, the price of goods affects me daily, I don't really get affected, at least in an obviously negative way, on a daily basis from illegals. Perhaps you could argue my taxes are higher because we educate, provide health care, and provide other services for illegals. But I doubt the increase is nearly as much as what my pocket would feel from having to first deport all the illegals, and secondly restructure our economy once it is devoid of cheap labor.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

I don't know, the price of goods affects me daily, I don't really get affected, at least in an obviously negative way, on a daily basis from illegals. Perhaps you could argue my taxes are higher because we educate, provide health care, and provide other services for illegals. But I doubt the increase is nearly as much as what my pocket would feel from having to first deport all the illegals, and secondly restructure our economy once it is devoid of cheap labor.

You can always have migrant workers in the farms. Also, if you've ever been out of the country, the prices of goods don't really vary much unless you're talking like Japan or London, which are expensive for factors outside of the cost of labor. The argument is that cheap illegal labor is the way to cheap products, but in the US, it really isn't that different from the rest of the world. Take a look across america. In fast food places in LA, there are a bunch of mexicans working there. You go out to the suburbs in the midwest, and its a bunch of teenagers working there...yet prices are pretty much the same. You go to San Francisco, and all the hotel and workers are chinese people. there isn't a short supply of cheap labor.

The theory of illegals causing prices to fall seems to be one used often, but in practice it probably doesn't make that big of a difference.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm talking about forcing 11M people to move from their homes because of their race or ethnicity.

what does race or ethnicity have to do with citizenship? Isn't that illegal?

 

[Further]

you and I just disagree. there is a very big difference between there being teenagers to work at DQ and there being sufficient labor to take over many millions of menial jobs. And you cant have things both ways. If I started a thread to raise minimum wage to $15 an hour, you would be on here saying it would kill the economy and that costs of goods would skyrocket. Well, same deal.

But all of these reasons are moot. Its politically untenable for the right and the left to do anything significant about the situation.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

you and I just disagree. there is a very big difference between there being teenagers to work at DQ and there being sufficient labor to take over many millions of menial jobs. And you cant have things both ways. If I started a thread to raise minimum wage to $15 an hour, you would be on here saying it would kill the economy and that costs of goods would skyrocket. Well, same deal.

But all of these reasons are moot. Its politically untenable for the right and the left to do anything significant about the situation.

How do other countries cope?

 

[Further]

How do other countries cope?

Some have lower wages to begin with, some have smaller populations to feed, some import more from countries with lower wages, some do have increased prices. I was in Scotland last week, and there are a lot of political issues going on right now because of the large influx of Eastern Europeans that have moved in over the past decade. They are the ones who generally tend the crops and do many of the menial jobs. Some Scots want them sent away because they also account for a good many of the criminals, while others say that is the reason why their goods have become more affordable over the past decade. There are many nations, each with their own set of circumstances. In America, with how things are arranged right now, I cant see the prices remaining the same without illegals.

I personally am fine with the costs going up to pay a minimum that is livable, be that for illegals or legals. It would take a period of time for things to adjust, but over time the economics would work themselves out. I was not supporting one thing or the other in this thread, I was just stating what the pitfalls of removing illegals are.

 

[oldguy]

I think there is a better way.

The government tells Mr. Businessman, "If you hire an illegal immigrant to work for you two things will happen. You will not be allowed to write off that person's wages as a business expense, period. That goes for any and all illegal immigrants you hire. Additionally, you will be fined a mandatory $50,000 for every illegal you are caught hiring." Of course, this would require that some additional laws to be passed, (which won't happen, because there is no political will to do so.) The net result of those things happening is that there would be no jobs here to attract them to the US.

The laws need to be changed so that illegals can be readily identified. (I.e., in Oregon, state police cannot even ask the question.)

The laws need to be changed so that children of illegal immigrants born here are not citizens.

Finally, they would have to stop the giveaways to the illegal immigrants. No welfare, healthcare, no in-state tuition rates, no free K-12 education.

If the government was serious about the problem, and did the above, what would be the draw for them to come here? No jobs, no free benefits.....what would keep them here?

But, alas, as pointed out above, I think the dems are addicted to the votes of the illegal crowd (and their legal relatives), and the Reps like the cheap labor. Where is the incentive to change anything?

Go Blazers

 

[maxiep]

you and I just disagree. there is a very big difference between there being teenagers to work at DQ and there being sufficient labor to take over many millions of menial jobs. And you cant have things both ways. If I started a thread to raise minimum wage to $15 an hour, you would be on here saying it would kill the economy and that costs of goods would skyrocket. Well, same deal.

But all of these reasons are moot. Its politically untenable for the right and the left to do anything significant about the situation.

If you wanted the minimum wage to be $15/hr, deporting illegal aliens would be the way to do it.

 

[maxiep]

I think there is a better way.

The government tells Mr. Businessman, "If you hire an illegal immigrant to work for you two things will happen. You will not be allowed to write off that person's wages as a business expense, period. That goes for any and all illegal immigrants you hire. Additionally, you will be fined a mandatory $50,000 for every illegal you are caught hiring." Of course, this would require that some additional laws to be passed, (which won't happen, because there is no political will to do so.) The net result of those things happening is that there would be no jobs here to attract them to the US.

The laws need to be changed so that illegals can be readily identified. (I.e., in Oregon, state police cannot even ask the question.)

The laws need to be changed so that children of illegal immigrants born here are not citizens.

Finally, they would have to stop the giveaways to the illegal immigrants. No welfare, healthcare, no in-state tuition rates, no free K-12 education.

If the government was serious about the problem, and did the above, what would be the draw for them to come here? No jobs, no free benefits.....what would keep them here?

But, alas, as pointed out above, I think the dems are addicted to the votes of the illegal crowd (and their legal relatives), and the Reps like the cheap labor. Where is the incentive to change anything?

Go Blazers

Repped. We don't do nearly enough to address the employers.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yeah. Deny 11M people a living and they'll all be homeless, their kids will starve, and whatever taxes they pay now won't be collected. They're at least paying sales taxes when they spend.

We really should go after the businesses that hire them. Indeed. Make them pay minimum wage like they have to pay anyone else.

 

[Further]

Yeah. Deny 11M people a living and they'll all be homeless, their kids will starve, and whatever taxes they pay now won't be collected. They're at least paying sales taxes when they spend.

We really should go after the businesses that hire them. Indeed. Make them pay minimum wage like they have to pay anyone else.

Although you have certainly deserved it on many occasions, I'm not sure if I ever repped you.....Until Now!!

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Yeah. Deny 11M people jobs and benefits who shouldn't be here and they'll go back to Mexico.

We really should go after the businesses that hire them. Indeed. Ban them from hiring them.

fixed that for you.

 

[Denny Crane]

Although you have certainly deserved it on many occasions, I'm not sure if I ever repped you.....Until Now!!

Go Blazers!

 

[oldguy]

I'm talking about forcing 11M people to move from their homes because of their race or ethnicity.

Or, instead of deporting for race or ethnicity, how about deporting them because they are criminals, here in violation of the law of the land?

Go Blazers

 

[Denny Crane]

A good read.

http://reason.com/archives/2013/05/17/are-hispanics-too-stupid-to-become-ameri

 

[oldguy]

Yeah. Deny 11M people a living and they'll all be homeless, their kids will starve, and whatever taxes they pay now won't be collected. They're at least paying sales taxes when they spend.

We really should go after the businesses that hire them. Indeed. Make them pay minimum wage like they have to pay anyone else.

Maybe I missed the assignment. I guess you want a method that deports 11M illegal immigrants that doesn't cost much and causes no pain for the people that caused the problems by breaking our laws.

Got it.

Go Blazers