OT Should females compete against biological males?

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Seriously, what would you tell your daughter who just took third in a race behind two trans women that had a massive physical advantage over her? That life is unfair? That this is a win for trans rights? That her future is less important than that of a trans person?
 
Seriously, what would you tell your daughter who just took third in a race behind two trans women that had a massive physical advantage over her? That life is unfair? That this is a win for trans rights? That her future is less important than that of a trans person?
That she should run faster. Or that 3rd is very good. Would see if she ran a personal best, and self compete. That sports isn't everything?
 
Seriously, what would you tell your daughter who just took third in a race behind two trans women that had a massive physical advantage over her? That life is unfair? That this is a win for trans rights? That her future is less important than that of a trans person?

"Don't go to the bathroom with them."

"I know you can beat them in Home Ec."

"Wow, you were amazing out there! So proud of you. You keep working has hard as you have been and you're only going to get faster. Your mother and I love you so much."
 
That she should run faster. Or that 3rd is very good. Would see id she ran a personal best, and self compete
Oh so she should pull herself up by her bootstraps eh?
 
Girls participate against boys all the time in high school wrestling. They use this thing called weight to determine who should fight who. Does this eliminate injuries? No. Should we just outlaw that from happening? No. Are those injuries happening at a higher rate than same sex wrestling? Don't know.

You provided one example, but I'm pretty sure that was a professional match. Those people got paid.

What happens in professional sports is very different than high school.
Actually, my opinion is that there shouldn't be a law preventing competing at all.

Just protections for leagues who bar people who have unfair advantages from competing in the lower divisions.
 
Actually, my opinion is that there shouldn't be a law preventing competing at all.

Just protections for leagues who bar people who have unfair advantages from competing in the lower divisions.

I get what you're saying but I'm still not fighting you.
 
Here is my stance - either agree or disagree, this is how I feel.

I'm 100% in favor of giving people the freedom to be who they want to be. If they want to self identify as a women, good for them. If they want to go through transitional surgery, awesome. Go for it. It doesn't impact me at all.

But once you start branching out into areas where you're directly impacting other people, and potentially creating unfair advantages that impact other people, then it's no longer about you and it is now about us as a society. We have put into place all these mechanisms to try to give women a fair chance.

If it is analyzed and it is determined that a trans woman has no advantage over biological females, then sweet. Go on ahead. But if we continually see trans women mop the floor with biological women in athletics, then it needs to be addressed.

The number of trans people is on the rise, so this issue will only become more and more visible in the public eye.
 
You’re gonna have to point me to all the examples of me being a misogynist.

I never said you were a misogynist. I said you (and another person in the thread) don't strike me as particularly passionate about feminism...until this one moment where you believe you can use it as cudgel.

An example of you not seeming to take feminism particularly seriously?

So have a skill based athletics and be done with it. No more male and female.

Of course..... the women's rights activists wouldn't be too happy about that
 
But if we continually see trans women mop the floor with biological women in athletics, then it needs to be addressed.

So you believe that if trans women were allowed to participate in women's sports, we would see this "continually?"
 
I never said you were a misogynist. I said you (and another person in the thread) don't strike me as particularly passionate about feminism...until this one moment where you believe you can use it as cudgel.

An example of you not seeming to take feminism particularly seriously?
That’s a statement of fact. If we did away with male and female sports and only had skill based match making I think women’s rights activists would be angry. Do you disagree?
 
Trans women out performing biological women? Yes most likely.

You said mopping the floor. Also, "continually" implies all the time, unending. I think you're massively overstating how often this would be a problem, especially at the higher end of individual sports.
 
That’s a statement of fact.

Quite literally a statement of opinion.

If we did away with male and female sports and only had skill based match making I think women’s rights activists would be angry. Do you disagree?

Why would basing things on skill upset "women's rights activists" (by which I assume you mean feminists)?
 
Quite literally a statement of opinion.



Why would basing things on skill upset "women's rights activists" (by which I assume you mean feminists)?

I can guarantee you that if we did away with women sports and instead had men and women mixed together in skill based match making, there would be women's rights activists who would complain. If you disagree then you don't understand the internet very well.

With that said, it would be an interesting shift in high school athletics.
 
I can guarantee you that if we did away with women sports and instead had men and women mixed together in skill based match making, there would be women's rights activists who would complain. If you disagree then you don't understand the internet very well.

Oh, I see. I've never heard of sports described that way: "skill-based match-making." I thought you were talking about skill-based games as opposed to (physical) sports, since you sarcastically referenced video games and stuff.
 
Oh, I see. I've never heard of sports described that way: "skill-based match-making." I thought you were talking about skill-based games as opposed to (physical) sports, since you sarcastically referenced video games and stuff.

Video games has the best template for rankings based on skill.......

Well, I guess that's unfair. They stole it from chess.

With that said, if they grouped athletes by tier instead of gender, how well do you think that would go over?
 
With that said, if they grouped athletes by tier instead of gender, how well do you think that would go over?

You can't really group by "skill" (which is why I didn't originally understand what you meant) because sports by nature involves the physical. It is biological fact that the furthest physical bounds men can reach (in most things--in a few cases, like where extreme flexibility is a large asset, women can push further) exceeds the furthest physical bounds women can reach.

Again, though, I don't think trans women competing in sports is going to be so common that all other women will simply be pushed out. Firstly, I think the idea that high-level male athletes (at whatever level we're talking about) will pretend to be trans to win women's competitions is as ridiculous as the fear-mongering that men will claim to be trans women in order to go into women's restrooms as harass women. And secondly, I did mention in my post that I think (at least for pro, adult amateur/college, possibly for high school), trans women should have already gone through HRT which does change body chemistry. Obviously not to the point that they're identical to the usual women's composition, but that has been a standard used before (as I mentioned also, in pro hockey). I don't think there are going to be so many trans female athletes that aspire to top end competition (i.e. where the final results matter more than just competing for enjoyment) as to push out all other women.
 
You can't really group by "skill" (which is why I didn't originally understand what you meant) because sports by nature involves the physical. It is biological fact that the furthest physical bounds men can reach (in most things--in a few cases, like where extreme flexibility is a large asset, women can push further) exceeds the furthest physical bounds women can reach.

Again, though, I don't think trans women competing in sports is going to be so common that all other women will simply be pushed out. Firstly, I think the idea that high-level male athletes (at whatever level we're talking about) will pretend to be trans to win women's competitions is as ridiculous as the fear-mongering that men will claim to be trans women in order to go into women's restrooms as harass women. And secondly, I did mention in my post that I think (at least for pro, adult amateur/college, possibly for high school), trans women should have already gone through HRT which does change body chemistry. Obviously not to the point that they're identical to the usual women's composition, but that has been a standard used before (as I mentioned also, in pro hockey). I don't think there are going to be so many trans female athletes that aspire to top end competition (i.e. where the final results matter more than just competing for enjoyment) as to push out all other women.

Sure, but are school districts requiring that trans people go through a sex change procedure OR are they just requiring that they identify as male or female? If the only requirement is to say that they're now a woman and they want to participate in female sports, that lacks all of the physiological changes that you just mentioned.

In that article I linked, they cited that particular conference as only requiring that they identify as female to compete in female sports.
"Athletic conference rules allow high school athletes to compete based on the genders with which they identify. Critics say the rules give male-to-female transgender people a competitive edge over cisgender women -- whose biological sex matches their gender identity -- because some have higher testosterone levels than non-trans females."

So what's the brightline? That they have to have transitioned?
 
Sure, but are school districts requiring that trans people go through a sex change procedure OR are they just requiring that they identify as male or female? If the only requirement is to say that they're now a woman and they want to participate in female sports, that lacks all of the physiological changes that you just mentioned.

In that article I linked, they cited that particular conference as only requiring that they identify as female to compete in female sports.
"Athletic conference rules allow high school athletes to compete based on the genders with which they identify. Critics say the rules give male-to-female transgender people a competitive edge over cisgender women -- whose biological sex matches their gender identity -- because some have higher testosterone levels than non-trans females."

So what's the brightline? That they have to have transitioned?

OSAA Handbook pages 70-71

https://13248aea-16f8-fc0a-cf26-a93...d/2bc3fc_88d63f6707cf4a6b87b3ee897c14914a.pdf

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That's a lot of legalese.... but if I read it right, someone could decide tomorrow morning that they're now female and want to play in female sports and that's all that's required. They just have to notify the school and the school has to notify OSAA.

Nate, no matter which gender you are you're too old to play high school sports again.
 
Speaking of going both ways, this thread goes 3 ways:

1. Should females compete against biological males? (thread title)
..a. Should they decide to
..b. Should authority allow them to

2. If yes, how can leagues be sustainable? (thread title's long-term version)
..a. Let girls enter boys' leagues, but not v.v.
..b. For safety, allow it only for low-contact sports, not football or wrestling.
..c. My idea: Add a disadvantage for boys in girls' leagues, like a weighted backpack.

3. Are you repulsed by transsexual surgery? (should be a new thread)
..a. Yes. It's disgusting to verbalize, so the new thread will get few responses.
..b. Cutting off my balls and dick doesn't bother me any more than my big toe.

I didn't remember all the options appearing in the thread so far, so feel free to copy and paste the outline with additional lines.
1. a.
2. a.
3. Not me, silly.
 
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Whoa, I'm for that.
 
1. a.
2. a.
3. Not me, silly.

I wrote an outline of issues, not a multiple choice test. The world needs a discussion of all the points listed, not just either/or a or b.
 

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