Should we worry about Toumani? (2 Viewers)

[Rastapopoulos]

Toumani was one of the feel-good stories of the past couple of years. A steal we got as a throw-in who grew into a starter. And he's a definite culture-setter with his defensive intensity (and just intensity in general).

BUT:

He's been lowkey bad so far. Like, we're worse with him on the floor than off. He was always bad offensively, but he knew it and didn't attempt much. Now he's dribbling and it's not going very well. He has to at least hit his threes to be a 3 and D guy, and he's shooting 30%. And even his defense seems to have slipped. It's looking an awful like the Jerami Grant effect (which was previously the "Uncle Cliffy" effect) - second round steal makes good by doing all the little things, gets a big contract, and suddenly acts like he needs to live up to it and loses what was good about him to begin with.

Maybe things will settle back when we get more scorers and he can be our Bruce Bowen again, but right now... Well, let's just say that those Suns fans who were mad when he got good for us after they threw him in the Ayton trade could probably take significant solace from the last game. Now they have Ryan Dunn for a lot cheaper.

 

[riverman]

I've noticed shots he's missing he's not just missing, he's missing pretty badly...off line shots.. I think there's something to Toumani missing Chaunceey's voice on the sideline keeping him up. Could be personal stuff as well. We don't know what goes on in these guys lives so there's that factor. Deni struggled early last season and got benched....I don't think Tiago will bench Toumani but Chauncey might have. That's the biggest difference I've seen. On the same token, Shaedon's handles seem worse than ever and I have no explanation for that other than possibly legalized indica.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

On the same token, Shaedon's handles seem worse than ever and I have no explanation for that other than possibly legalized indica.

And yet. Shaedon's plus/minus is one of the best on the team, and he's certainly scoring well (and comparatively efficiently) in the past few games. Oddly, the quality of his play seems to be inverse to the success of the team. We were winning (remember when we beat OKC? And Denver? Good times.) when he was sucking.

 

[sheed30]

No, first off he is playing mainly the 4 right now. Maybe he is better suited at the 3 more.

Also, he played imo worse to start last year. In in the month of Nov and Dec last year he shot about 42% FG and 32% from 3, while only scoring about 9 point per game.

He really started to pick up his FG and 3% from Jan to the end of the season. We are only 15 games about into the season, there is lots of games left to play

​

 

[AldoTrapani]

Hell yea we should worry hrs been terrible. One of the worst defenders on the team actually

 

[wizenheimer]

he's certainly dropped out of the "untouchable' category in the first month of the season. He might be back in it by February. For a role player like him you can anticipate occasional shooting slumps, especially from behind the arc. But good players will quite often compensate by doing other things well

but the direction of his numbers from last season to this season are alarming:

minutes last season 32.7-->this season 34.4
points: last season 11.3-->this season 11.9
FGA: last season 9.2-->this season 11.0
FG%: last season .458-->this season .396
2ptFG%: last season .542-->this season .542
3ptFG%: last season .375-->this season .305
3ptFGA: last season 4.6-->this season 6.8
eFG%: last season .552-->this season .490
points/shot: last season 1.23-->this season 1.08
reb: last season 5.8-->this season 5.0
assists: last season 2.2-->this season 2.9
turnovers: last season 1.4-->this season 2.1
assist/turnover: last season 1.57-->this season 1.38
steals: last season 1.5-->this season 1.1
blocks: last season 0.6-->this season 0.4

PER: last season 12.5-->this season 8.5
TS%: last season .572-->this season .508
3PAr: last season .503-->this season .617
FTr: last season .176-->this season .136
Off Rating: last season 117-->this season 115
Def Rating: last season 105-->this season 121 (WTF...?)
winshare/48: last season .097-->this season .014
OBPM: last season -0.9-->this season -2.4
DBPM: last season +0.8-->this season -1.3
BPM: last season -0.1-->this season -3.7

all it would take is a half dozen good games by him to start to turn those numbers around. Both Sharpe and Camara started the season off terribly after both signed new deals this off-season. Sharpe has started to turn his season around; Camara hasn't yet. Maybe they were both pressing

I don't think Toumani will remain this bad. But it's certainly a possibility that his 2nd season was a bit of an aberration and this season represents a regression toward his norm

 

[wizenheimer]

ps: I was going to say that Aldo should be locked out of this thread, but he's already here

 

[AldoTrapani]

ps: I was going to say that Aldo should be locked out of this thread, but he's already here

I told ya since week 1.. I wish I was wrong

 

[AldoTrapani]

His defense isn't good enough to be shooting 39/30/75 to go along with meh rebounding and below av playmaking.

You can find someone off the scrap heap to do that. Not for 20m/yr

 

[Hoopguru]

he's certainly dropped out of the "untouchable' category in the first month of the season. He might be back in it by February. For a role player like him you can anticipate occasional shooting slumps, especially from behind the arc. But good players will quite often compensate by doing other things well

but the direction of his numbers from last season to this season are alarming:

minutes last season 32.7-->this season 34.4
points: last season 11.3-->this season 11.9
FGA: last season 9.2-->this season 11.0
FG%: last season .458-->this season .396
2ptFG%: last season .542-->this season .542
3ptFG%: last season .375-->this season .305
3ptFGA: last season 4.6-->this season 6.8
eFG%: last season .552-->this season .490
points/shot: last season 1.23-->this season 1.08
reb: last season 5.8-->this season 5.0
assists: last season 2.2-->this season 2.9
turnovers: last season 1.4-->this season 2.1
assist/turnover: last season 1.57-->this season 1.38
steals: last season 1.5-->this season 1.1
blocks: last season 0.6-->this season 0.4

PER: last season 12.5-->this season 8.5
TS%: last season .572-->this season .508
3PAr: last season .503-->this season .617
FTr: last season .176-->this season .136
Off Rating: last season 117-->this season 115
Def Rating: last season 105-->this season 121 (WTF...?)
winshare/48: last season .097-->this season .014
OBPM: last season -0.9-->this season -2.4
DBPM: last season +0.8-->this season -1.3
BPM: last season -0.1-->this season -3.7

all it would take is a half dozen good games by him to start to turn those numbers around. Both Sharpe and Camara started the season off terribly after both signed new deals this off-season. Sharpe has started to turn his season around; Camara hasn't yet. Maybe they were both pressing

I don't think Toumani will remain this bad. But it's certainly a possibility that his 2nd season was a bit of an aberration and this season represents a regression toward his norm

They get paid by the golden Goose and they mind/celebrate during off season, distraction?
Wiz, thanks for the comparisons! Hoophomer...ill admit I am a homer in some ways.

 

[sheed30]

His defense isn't good enough to be shooting 39/30/75 to go along with meh rebounding and below av playmaking.

You can find someone off the scrap heap to do that. Not for 20m/yr

I feel this is going to be like your typical MO posts, say something negative and when he turns things around you will be crickets.

Just like the other times you put your foot in your mouth and stayed silent after the fact when proven otherwise.

 

[AldoTrapani]

I feel this is going to be like your typical MO posts, say something negative and when he turns things around you will be crickets.

Just like the other times you put your foot in your mouth and stayed silent after the fact when proven otherwise.

No I don’t I always admit when I’m wrong ask sly

 

[B-Roy]

He is doing way too much on offense. Reminds me of exactly his rookie season when Chauncey benched him when he got too full of himself.

He needs to remember how he got here: playing hard defense and hitting open shots. I don't blame him for trying to expand his offensive game, especially with all the injuries, but he's got to tone down the dribble drives into left handed pass/turnovers. Cut out all the triple jab step contested threes. The awful passes that have no chance of reaching their target.

 

[B-Roy]

And yet. Shaedon's plus/minus is one of the best on the team, and he's certainly scoring well (and comparatively efficiently) in the past few games. Oddly, the quality of his play seems to be inverse to the success of the team. We were winning (remember when we beat OKC? And Denver? Good times.) when he was sucking.

That feels like more of a function of the injuries than anything.

Turthfully, I can't see us beating any team without Jrue. There is enough of a sample size of the minutes the team plays without Jrue in the game and it's BAD.

 

[tlongII]

I told ya since week 1.. I wish I was wrong

No you don’t. You’d just go back to hating on Scoot.

 

[Cugel]

He should be the 4th or 5th option on offense

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

he's certainly dropped out of the "untouchable' category in the first month of the season. He might be back in it by February. For a role player like him you can anticipate occasional shooting slumps, especially from behind the arc. But good players will quite often compensate by doing other things well

but the direction of his numbers from last season to this season are alarming:

FGA: last season 9.2-->this season 11.0
3ptFGA: last season 4.6-->this season 6.8

Warning: Pure speculation.

I wonder if the number of FG attempts is higher due to a faster paced game? More possessions = more opportunities. Dunno.

I also wonder if there is some kind of emphasis on shooting 3 point shots as they are worth half-again as much as a two. It seems that much of the NBA has, to some degree or another, eschewed the mid-range shot. Higher, risk than a lay-in/close-in shot but not worth as many point as the slightly more risky 3 point shot.

If you shoot 30% in 3's and 40% in twos, in 10 shots you come out ahead shooting threes (9 points vs. 8 points).

Gramps...

 

[wizenheimer]

If you shoot 30% in 3's and 40% in twos, in 10 shots you come out ahead shooting threes (9 points vs. 8 points).

Gramps...

that's only true if there is no foul line and FTA's in a game. Sharpe is scoring 4.4 points/game from the FT line and he didn't get there chucking three's; he got there by attacking the hoop

so, let's rework the math

* Sharpe attempts 10 three's, shoots 30% on those three's so he scores 9 points
* but Sharpe isn't shooting 40% on two's, he's shooting 54.5%. So if he attempts 10 two's he's scoring 11 points on two's. Then, add in 2.7 of his made FT's and he's scoring around 13.5 points on 10 two point shots, not 8 points

Camara is a different matter only by degree

* he shooting 30% on three's, yes. So 10 attempts a game would yield 9 point; maybe a tiche more
* but he's shooting 54.2% on two's and is adding 1.1 FT's a game. So attempting 10 two's would yield 9.8 points; adding 0.8 points of from FT's would put him at 10.6 points from two's versus 9 points on three's

I think people tend to underestimate the value of FT's. Even if you assign more FT's from loose ball fouls etc. when opponents are in the bonus, the impact of shooting fouls really alters most equations.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

He’s getting lit up

The only thing I can think of is the coaching change had an impact. He thrived under Billups.

 

[dviss1]

What I see is a player who's CLEARLY trying to do too much. He's not focusing on what he's best at because of it.

Why? He's being allowed to and IMO he hasn't been given a defined role.

I would have him:

1. Guard the best wing scorer (not the PG unless it's Luka).
2. Catch and shoot when wide open and STOP shooting off the dribble. Better shot selection is key for his percentages to improve.
3. Cut with a purpose when moving without the ball.
4. Run in transition correctly so our slashers can capitalize on fast break opportunities.

Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

His purpose on the court needs to be simplified and clearly defined. And this comes from coaching.
Both he and Shae are attempting to do too many things offensively that are outside of their current skillsets.
Both need to become MUCH better ballhandlers and shooters before attempting the shots they are attempting regularly.
Shot selection is the main reason why his percentages are down.

How many step back 3s does he need to take before coach reigns it in? He's not playing well because of coaching.

 

[BlayZa]

its the Contract Curse.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

He’s getting lit up

The only thing I can think of is the coaching change had an impact. He thrived under Billups.

I already said this. It was deemed likely not credible.