SI.com's Top 100 NBA players of 2017

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PtldPlatypus said:
There's a huge difference between the flop and the drawn foul. Yes, Harden flops a lot, but he also draws a huge number of legitimate fouls, and he does so by design. And don't act as though other players don't want and try to do the same--they do, just not as well. It's more than just "a quick upward motion"--it involves deceptively convincing the defender to attempt to stop you in a way you know they can't. Like Dame drawing fouls on his 3 point attempts while coming around a screen. He does it repeatedly, intentionally, and better than anyone else not named Jamal Crawford. It is most definitely a skill.

And your speeding analogy is simply terrible, ridiculous really.
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Well you got one part of my post anyhow. The speeding reference being ridiculous. Just about as ridiculous as considering drawing fouls an elite skill, especially in the way he does it and THAT was my point.

I'm not saying Harden is nobody without his flops, but I will not agree to anyone saying flopping and drawing fouls are elite skills in the NBA.
Part of the game? yes. Skill? no.
Its not a skill
Dribbling between the legs is a skill
Just like jumping is not a skill. Its athleticism. A big difference between being athletic and being skilled.
If you think Hardens foul drawing is an elite skill, I wont try to change your opinion, but remember, its just your opinion, and I wholeheartedly think your wrong on this is all... and that my opinion.

Its an act. Not a skill. Now if he was an actor? He would be extremely skilled, but he is not. He is an nba player where acting is not a skill.
 
Until Lillard cleans up his defense he's going to be looked at as simply the player he just is. His defense is beyond TRASH. Out of the 81 point guards ranked by ESPN, he sits at 79th in Defensive Real Plus-Minus. That's awful!

Blazers also allowed 4.5 more points per 100 possessions last season when Lillard was on the floor. On top of that, players shot 3.6 percent above their average from three-point range when guarded by Lillard, and shot 7.9 percent above their average within six feet against him.

And don't get me started on his shooting percentages. Did you guys know his playoffs career shooting percentage is barley above 40%?

All in all I'm ready to judge him on a new season that's coming up. I hope I'm able to say "wow he's so much better this year"
 
Tunchi said:
Until Lillard cleans up his defense he's going to be looked at as simply the player he just is. His defense is beyond TRASH. Out of the 81 point guards ranked by ESPN, he sits at 79th in Defensive Real Plus-Minus. That's awful!

Blazers also allowed 4.5 more points per 100 possessions last season when Lillard was on the floor. On top of that, players shot 3.6 percent above their average from three-point range when guarded by Lillard, and shot 7.9 percent above their average within six feet against him.

And don't get me started on his shooting percentages. Did you guys know his playoffs career shooting percentage is barley above 40%?

All in all I'm ready to judge him on a new season that's coming up. I hope I'm able to say "wow he's so much better this year"
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Wow, I never would have guessed you feel that way about Lillard.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Well you got one part of my post anyhow. The speeding reference being ridiculous. Just about as ridiculous as considering drawing fouls an elite skill, especially in the way he does it and THAT was my point.

I'm not saying Harden is nobody without his flops, but I will not agree to anyone saying flopping and drawing fouls are elite skills in the NBA.
Part of the game? yes. Skill? no.
Its not a skill
Dribbling between the legs is a skill
Just like jumping is not a skill. Its athleticism. A big difference between being athletic and being skilled.
If you think Hardens foul drawing is an elite skill, I wont try to change your opinion, but remember, its just your opinion, and I wholeheartedly think your wrong on this is all... and that my opinion.

Its an act. Not a skill. Now if he was an actor? He would be extremely skilled, but he is not. He is an nba player where acting is not a skill.
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You need to compartmentalize flopping from drawing legitimate fouls.
Flopping is acting, a rules violation, and deplorable.
Inciting defenders to legitimately foul you involves planning and technique, requires intent and practice. You know--descriptors of a skill.
You should not conflate the two.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
You need to compartmentalize flopping from drawing legitimate fouls.
Flopping is acting, a rules violation, and deplorable.
Inciting defenders to legitimately foul you involves planning and technique, requires intent and practice. You know--descriptors of a skill.
You should not conflate the two.
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I consider that flopping. Its flopping to me if the defender has hand out and the offensive player moves his arms into his. Its not the same as falling to the ground when not touched, but it has the same effect. A foul where the defender didn't do anything wrong. practiced or not. rehearsed or not. its flopping and is not a skill.
 
Tunchi said:
Until Lillard cleans up his defense he's going to be looked at as simply the player he just is. His defense is beyond TRASH. Out of the 81 point guards ranked by ESPN, he sits at 79th in Defensive Real Plus-Minus. That's awful!

Blazers also allowed 4.5 more points per 100 possessions last season when Lillard was on the floor. On top of that, players shot 3.6 percent above their average from three-point range when guarded by Lillard, and shot 7.9 percent above their average within six feet against him.

And don't get me started on his shooting percentages. Did you guys know his playoffs career shooting percentage is barley above 40%?

All in all I'm ready to judge him on a new season that's coming up. I hope I'm able to say "wow he's so much better this year"
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Who on here plays NBA2k or the new games where they give real time stats for the players in the game based on their real time play?

I don't, so I am not certain, but I would be willing to bet on these assumptions.

There is not one guy who leads every stat rating. Most players who have more than one stat/skill rating as high as possible often have another stat/skill rating that is below average.

I don't know what you expect. 100% FT, 100% FG on zero FGA? 30 rebounds and 50 assists a game?

Most of the greats have flaws. Yours is you think the best players are flawless and that is mostly not true.
 
Orion Bailey said:
Who on here plays NBA2k or the new games where they give real time stats for the players in the game based on their real time play?

I don't, so I am not certain, but I would be willing to bet on these assumptions.

There is not one guy who leads every stat rating. Most players who have more than one stat/skill rating as high as possible often have another stat/skill rating that is below average.

I don't know what you expect. 100% FT, 100% FG on zero FGA? 30 rebounds and 50 assists a game?

Most of the greats have flaws. Yours is you think the best players are flawless and that is mostly not true.
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LOWRY HAS HUGE FLAWS! :MARIS61:
 
SlyPokerDog said:
10. Blake Griffin, PF, Clippers
9. Paul George, SF, Pacers
8. Anthony Davis, PF, Pelicans
7. James Harden, SG, Rockets
6. Kawhi Leonard, SG, Spurs
5. Russell Westbrook, PG, Thunder
4. Chris Paul, PG, Clippers
3. Stephen Curry, PG, Warriors
2. Kevin Durant, SF, Warriors
.
.
.
.
.
1b. LeBron James, SF, Cavaliers
1a. SlyPokerDog, SF, Undrafted


http://www.si.com/nba/2016/09/12/nba-top-100-player-rankings
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3 of the top 5 are point guards in the West, and 4 of the top 7 are West guards. This should be stickied for anytime someone bitches about All-Star Game snubs.
 
As has been proven in the playoffs, the ability to draw fouls does not translate well to the post season. The fouls dry up, but Harden keeps playing the same style. It hurts his team. It's one of the reasons why we were able to beat them a few years back.
 
Tunchi said:
Until Lillard cleans up his defense he's going to be looked at as simply the player he just is. His defense is beyond TRASH. Out of the 81 point guards ranked by ESPN, he sits at 79th in Defensive Real Plus-Minus. That's awful!

Blazers also allowed 4.5 more points per 100 possessions last season when Lillard was on the floor. On top of that, players shot 3.6 percent above their average from three-point range when guarded by Lillard, and shot 7.9 percent above their average within six feet against him.
Click to expand...
DRPM is flawed. I'm not getting into that.

As far as more points per 100, Lillard is usually playing against starters, and when he's off the court is usually when the opponents bench pieces are in. That would mean when Lillards on the court, the other team has better players in, meaning they would naturally score more.

And yeah opponents shot better than their average when guarded by Lillard, but some of that is attributed to ten defense, and some is attributed to scheme.

If Lillard is fighting over the screen, he either gets through and there no 3 point shot, or the screen is good and he doesn't get through, leaving the shooter wide open. Sometimes he doesnt get through because it wild be a lot easier to sprint under. Since the screeners man doesn't hedge, (which is our scheme) the ball handler is going to get better looks than usual from 3 when Lillard gets stuck, leading to a higher percentage.

I can't believe that you blamed Lillard on percentage of shots his guy makes within 6 feet. They shoot 8% higher because we had no rim protector. It's not Lillard job to sit at the rim and block/alter layups, because he's a damn PG!

You're bringing subjective stats into it when must are a combination of many things that aren't Lillard, and then using another stat (DRPM) reflective of these combinations and trying to pin that on Lillard alone. We didn't have good TEAM defense, and our scheme and lack of rim protection will always make guards look worse than they actually are on defense.
 
BonesJones said:
As far as more points per 100, Lillard is usually playing against starters, and when he's off the court is usually when the opponents bench pieces are in. That would mean when Lillards on the court, the other team has better players in, meaning they would naturally score more.
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So, that must be true for the defensive rating of every other starter in the league, too?
 
handiman said:
So, that must be true for the defensive rating of every other starter in the league, too?
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Yes, but that's what I'm saying is that it will be a little negatively skewed. Couple that with how our SCHEME makes it easy on opposing PGs (the best position in the league, especially in the west, and it's gonna make Dame look bad.
 
BonesJones said:
Yes, but that's what I'm saying is that it will be a little negatively skewed. Couple that with how our SCHEME makes it easy on opposing PGs (the best position in the league, especially in the west, and it's gonna make Dame look bad.
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By agreeing, you're contradicting yourself... Lillard's low defensive rating would not be low if the same held true for other starters.

There's no getting around the fact that he's a horrible defender. Even backups blow by him with ease. A great scheme might be able to hide him, but even that's asking a lot. CJ, at least, could be an adequate defender in the right system.
 
handiman said:
By agreeing, you're contradicting yourself... Lillard's low defensive rating would not be low if the same held true for other starters.

There's no getting around the fact that he's a horrible defender. Even backups blow by him with ease. A great scheme might be able to hide him, but even that's asking a lot. CJ, at least, could be an adequate defender in the right system.
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He's not horrible. I don't see anyone just "blow by him".
 
I'm watching game 4 against GSW right now. Lillard is playing some decent D on Curry, arguably the best in the game?
 
Orion Bailey said:
I'm watching game 4 against GSW right now. Lillard is playing some decent D on Curry, arguably the best in the game?
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Sure, pick an example of someone playing on a gimpy leg...

Every statistic paints Lillard as one of the worst defenders in the league, and all the national writers say the same thing, yet some of you still "defend" him. Whose the crazy one?
 
handiman said:
Sure, pick an example of someone playing on a gimpy leg...

Every statistic paints Lillard as one of the worst defenders in the league, and all the national writers say the same thing, yet some of you still "defend" him. Whose the crazy one?
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Sorry. It was game three I was watching. the one we won. No Curry. Dame was D'd up on Thompson quite a bit and though Thompson got his numbers, he took alot of contested/poor shots.
 
handiman said:
Sure, pick an example of someone playing on a gimpy leg...

Every statistic paints Lillard as one of the worst defenders in the league, and all the national writers say the same thing, yet some of you still "defend" him. Whose the crazy one?
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It was proven that the national writers dont know everything....27 wins remind you of anything?

With that said, I never said he was good at D, just saying I think he is better than worst in the league.

Second, and again, very few all stars are good at everything. a few are and most superstars are.

IF Dame isn't perfect he gets shit. Sometimes he gets more shit than he deserves in my opinion is all.
 
handiman said:
Sure, pick an example of someone playing on a gimpy leg...

Every statistic paints Lillard as one of the worst defenders in the league, and all the national writers say the same thing, yet some of you still "defend" him. Whose the crazy one?
Click to expand...

And Curry had the best OT performance ever in the history of the game that night. Not a good look for Dame any way you slice it.

Part of the blame for Dame's defense has to go on Terry's conservative system and lack of any semblance of rim protection. It forces our PGs to get around a million picks every night-- it leaves the middle of the floor wide open because we rarely switch, and our bigs are completely immobile and can't block shots.

But Dame does slack quite a bit and gives up once he's beaten. He has slow lateral movement, and still doesn't know the correct angles to get around picks-- he still gets demolished by even just 1 pick in a set. A team like SA which runs sometimes 5 P&Rs in a single possession puts Dame in a whirlwind when he's done with a play. That 2014 second round against Tony Parker was horrifying to watch. This is going to be his fifth year-- let's hope he can at least get better at the stuff HE can control.
 
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Orion Bailey said:
With that said, I never said he was good at D, just saying I think he is better than worst in the league.
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Pretty much every defensive metric says otherwise. He might not be the ABSOLUTE worst, but he's down in the bottom 10.
 
yuyuza1 said:
And Curry had the best OT performance ever in the history of the game that night. Not a good look for Dame any way you slice it.
Click to expand...

You can stick a lot of things on Dame about his defense, but not Curry's OT performance in Game 4. Stotts switched Lillard onto Barnes and had Aminu trying to cover Curry.



OT begins at about 5:15.
 
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