Simons & CJ

[wizenheimer]

very small sample sizes yet, but at this point, there are 6 games of Simons as PG without CJ and 6 games of Simons as PG with CJ:

Points/game: without CJ 28.3....with CJ 20.0
FGA/game: without CJ 19.2....with CJ 16.2
FG%: without CJ 51.3%....with CJ 42.2%
Assists/game: without CJ 8.2....with CJ 6.2
Turnovers/game: without CJ 2.7....with CJ 3.3

I don't know if this is surprising or expected. Definite drop in opportunity and efficiency. But Simons is so new as a starting PG, developing synergy with another high usage player would probably be awkward at times

Dame was always able to assert himself while playing with CJ. But he was a 3 year starter before CJ became a starter, so he knew his role and had control of it. Still, the synergy between Dame & CJ has never been that good.

this might be a window on Simons as a starter next to Dame. But maybe they could find a better equilibrium than Dame and CJ ever found. I'm skeptical but it's possible

 

[B-Roy]

I think the numbers are also somewhat inflated without CJ because in the beginning of Ant's hot streak teams were not trapping him the way they are now. Now, teams treat him like Lillard on the pick and roll, it's no wonder his efficiency dropped and his turnovers are up.

 

[James lamphear]

Simons without CJ and now Powell he had a lot freedom out there running and he was doing a good job doing it but now not so much. Without those 2 players the team was actually happy playing with each other but now let see how long when start not being happy again. I am all for trading CJ and Powell for one. But mostly Powell I think CJ trying to fit the way they was playing ball before he came back but Powell his mind set is not with the rest of the team.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ is the ball stopping Emperor.

 

[wizenheimer]

I think the numbers are also somewhat inflated without CJ because in the beginning of Ant's hot streak teams were not trapping him the way they are now. Now, teams treat him like Lillard on the pick and roll, it's no wonder his efficiency dropped and his turnovers are up.

yeah, I mentioned that in another thread. It took some time for opposing teams to develop detailed scouting reports on Simons, and then implement tactics. he's not being allowed to drive right without resistance. he's getting blitzed more on PnR. etc.

it's not nearly at the level of attention that Dame has received for years, but it's certainly more than he's accustomed too.

I'm also wondering about the level of defenses he's faced in his 12-13 game starting PG career:

opponent defensive ranking and result:

28th - W
7th - L
3rd - L
29th - W
18th - W
16th -L
22nd - W
21st - W
7th - L
4th - W (Boston)
20th - W
10th - L
5th - L

the Boston game is an outlier, although they didn't have their best perimeter defender that game. But other than that, the wins and losses track the defensive ability of the opponent I don't think that is that real far off normal, especially considering the offensive firepower the Blazers are missing. Portland has played several bad defensive teams and I'm not sure Simons has faced many good defenders in that span.

 

[Predator]

How the hell is this a window into what Ant would look like next to a superior player?

Dame and CJ play, and look at the game, entirely differently.

This is a window into what Ant looks like next to CJ.

 

[illmatic99]

I think the numbers are also somewhat inflated without CJ because in the beginning of Ant's hot streak teams were not trapping him the way they are now. Now, teams treat him like Lillard on the pick and roll, it's no wonder his efficiency dropped and his turnovers are up.

Dallas stopped doing it in the second half and Ant got loose again. All this is telling me that when Dame comes back, we potentially have two guys who have to be double teamed or trapped on the perimeter. Getting another P&R target to put on one wing with Ant, while Dame and Nurk cook on the other would seriously open up our attack. John Collins is just screaming out to me this morning. Add a cutter/spacing wing (perhaps Nas), and we'd just wreak havoc on any defense.

 

[Predator]

I think the numbers are also somewhat inflated without CJ because in the beginning of Ant's hot streak teams were not trapping him the way they are now. Now, teams treat him like Lillard on the pick and roll, it's no wonder his efficiency dropped and his turnovers are up.

So that logically leads to:
What happens if Dame AND Ant are playing together? They gonna run doubles at both of them? Or will they keep running doubles at Dame and show less attention to Simons, leading to increased efficiency again?

 

[Strenuus]

Trade both.

 

[Natebishop3]

Trade both.

Trade you!

 

[Strenuus]

Trade you!

I'm not worth the lint in your belly button.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'm not worth the lint in your belly button.

FACTS!!! There is no argument!!!



lol. Sorry bro. Had to.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Dallas stopped doing it in the second half and Ant got loose again. All this is telling me that when Dame comes back, we potentially have two guys who have to be double teamed or trapped on the perimeter. Getting another P&R target to put on one wing with Ant, while Dame and Nurk cook on the other would seriously open up our attack. John Collins is just screaming out to me this morning. Add a cutter/spacing wing (perhaps Nas), and we'd just wreak havoc on any defense.

So my only question is why cant this be done with CJ? I think we all agree he is an above average to elite offensive player. Why cant we open things up with him on the other side in the same situation?
Is it because cj rarely goes the pnr route and prefers everyone to get out of the way so he can isolate?

 

[blazerkor]

Just a thought on CJ and Ant. Both need to be traded in the next dozen or so days. Neither is the high level defender that Dame needs next to him. Both score the ball great but will always be buried by Dame's dominance especially if this surgery works and he comes back more dominant than he's been over the previous four seasons. I shit you not that the answer to who should start in the back court next to Dame for the next 5 seasons is Nassir Little.

Make big bold moves. A trade with the Bulls is a must to get our pick back and free up all of our future picks for a trade or trades made now. Move CJ, move Simons, move RoCo, move Norm and if one of those moves gets you Simmons then move Nurk as well. Also don't be afraid to move anyone else. If the idea is to win big with Dame then none of the three guards you have around him right now that will all be making pretty big money next season make sense next to him.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

Sorry, but looking into the future of the organization, I’d be trading Dame before trading Simons. Just facts.

love Dame, so I’d play Dame with Ant and trade the rest. Was thinking we must keep Nas, and we’ll be after his latest injury - but in truth, he’s injury prone and this concerns me.

 

[blazerkor]

Sorry, but looking into the future of the organization, I’d be trading Dame before trading Simons. Just facts.

love Dame, so I’d play Dame with Ant and trade the rest. Was thinking we must keep Nas, and we’ll be after his latest injury - but in truth, he’s injury prone and this concerns me.

These are logical conclusions to come to and probably more logical than my devotion to Dame but I really believe if we put all of our trade capital on the table, free up our future picks for additional trade capital and push all of that to the right combination of teams for a great return... we can win multiple titles with Dame and what we get back.

The best trade value we have right now has to be Ant. CJ does have trade value just not the value that some have always hoped for. Both have to go if we're trying to win championships with Dame (CJ has to go regardless). That's the way I want the team to move but I understand you wanting us to go the other way. Ant isn't only extremely good on the court with the promise to be even better but he's also a great guy. So I appreciate where you're at and am just in a different place.

 

[BoomChakaLaka]

These are logical conclusions to come to and probably more logical than my devotion to Dame but I really believe if we put all of our trade capital on the table, free up our future picks for additional trade capital and push all of that to the right combination of teams for a great return... we can win multiple titles with Dame and what we get back.

The best trade value we have right now has to be Ant. CJ does have trade value just not the value that some have always hoped for. Both have to go if we're trying to win championships with Dame (CJ has to go regardless). That's the way I want the team to move but I understand you wanting us to go the other way. Ant isn't only extremely good on the court with the promise to be even better but he's also a great guy. So I appreciate where you're at and am just in a different place.

Thank you. I would like to see how Dame at the point and Ant at the 2 could look like,’given we bring back a true SF / wing by trading CJ and/or RoCo. Siakam? Grant? etc. I'm ok with Nance at PF and am not the biggest fan of Nurkic however believe that we’ll keep and re-sign Nurk. This leaves us needing to sign a vet Power Forward and Back-up Center for next year. Can CJ + RoCo bring us Grant, Siakam or Ingram?

 

[blazerkor]

Thank you. I would like to see how Dame at the point and Ant at the 2 could look like,’given we bring back a true SF / wing by trading CJ and/or RoCo. Siakam? Grant? etc. I'm ok with Nance at PF and am not the biggest fan of Nurkic however believe that we’ll keep and re-sign Nurk. This leaves us needing to sign a vet Power Forward and Back-up Center for next year. Can CJ + RoCo bring us Grant, Siakam or Ingram?

Ingram would be the best of those three candidates for CJ and RoCo. I think you take what RoCo would give you from one of the interested parties and package it with CJ. However I think the idea behind the rumor that the Pelicans want CJ is that he is teamed up with Ingram and a healthy Zion. Maybe we could get value from the Pelicans for CJ that would be appealing to the Pistons and that plus RoCo could net us Grant. Regardless you and I are at an impasse because you think that Dame and Ant could make a high functioning back court and I think they would be an extremely dysfunctional defensive back court and an offensive back court that is less than the sum of their parts.