So who goes?

[GrandpaBlaze]

Sharpe has been our worst rotational player all year. Yes he's a rookie, yes he seems to have all the tools to be really good, but he has been objectively bad. Is it just youth; is it coaching; is it confidence; is it motor; is it BBIQ? I don't know, but I'm souring on him. All these comparisons everyone's making between him and the all-star wings people think he reminds them of... have any been as ineffective overall as rookies as he has been?

If Sharpe is the piece that will get us a legit star to pair with Dame, I'd certainly listen.

I was also thinking about Sharpe this morning. He may show a lot of potential and definitely some highlights but he doesn't strike me as having the mentality of a superstar. He is a follower, not a leader. He has leader potential but a deferential personality.

Lillard in his rookie year regularly asked for the ball. Yes, Lillard was a 4-year college player whereas Sharpe is, essentially, a HS player but that may change overall maturity, but I don't believe it significantly changes the mentality.

I've lowered my expectations for Sharpe from potential all-star to ideally, a very good #2 (or #3). However, I do not see him as a leader.

The idea of an Ant/Sharpe led team in the future does not fill me with hope, but it does incite an expectation of numerous trips to the lottery. Both have some skills but neither are a true leader IMO.

My .02

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

If Grant walks, Dame will ask for a trade. Cronin has to resign Grant no matter the price. I'm fine with that, Grant is a big helper on this team. Blazers just need bigger stronger players so the shooters can shoot, and more reliable ball handlers so the shooters can shoot, and better defensive players so the shooters can shoot.

I'm not fine with the "no matter the price" component. You already have Dame earning a boatload. Add in a highly overpaid albeit high-level role-player PF and where do you find the funds to improve the team elsewhere? Throwing "great" money at "good" is something the Blazers have done regularly and it as cost them options and flexibility.

I'm not good with it. Leads to more of same, borderline play-in team with few options. Pass.

 

[MickZagger]

I was also thinking about Sharpe this morning. He may show a lot of potential and definitely some highlights but he doesn't strike me as having the mentality of a superstar. He is a follower, not a leader. He has leader potential but a deferential personality.

Lillard in his rookie year regularly asked for the ball. Yes, Lillard was a 4-year college player whereas Sharpe is, essentially, a HS player but that may change overall maturity, but I don't believe it significantly changes the mentality.

I've lowered my expectations for Sharpe from potential all-star to ideally, a very good #2 (or #3). However, I do not see him as a leader.

The idea of an Ant/Sharpe led team in the future does not fill me with hope, but it does incite an expectation of numerous trips to the lottery. Both have some skills but neither are a true leader IMO.

My .02

I’ve seen glimpses of star potential. It’s few and far between. I’d like to see him after an offseason or two really refining his game.

I’d be hesitant to trade him. But if it makes a ton of sense than I’d do it.

 

[GrandpaBlaze]

I agree Portland has overpaid on FA and will likely do so again winth Grant this summer. Grant and his agent knows Portland losing him for nothing would be a massive setback and that's where their leverage comes from. Portland could play a game of chicken with Grant and his agency, but it would certainly come at a cost. Not to mention, this deal was almost certainly agreed to months ago.

Grant at that price is a Meyers Leonard overpay. Sheesh. When you are in a hole stop digging. This would be digging even deeper.

Cronin can talk about wanting to have flexibility to make big moves all he wants but if he does that, it becomes pretty words but signifying nothing.

 

[Tince]

Grant at that price is a Meyers Leonard overpay. Sheesh. When you are in a hole stop digging. This would be digging even deeper.

Cronin can talk about wanting to have flexibility to make big moves all he wants but if he does that, it becomes pretty words but signifying nothing.

Given our cap situation, what would your plan be to replace Grant if we let him go for nothing? We won't have $30m to sign someone else. We're looking at an estimated $170m cap in 2025, so Grant would take up only 17% of that, which is in line for what a #3 option should get. Feels different to me than giving a end of the bench guy 9% of the cap.

 

[HoopsFanAZ]

1. Blazers' lottery pick hits 1 or 2, keep it. Otherwise, all options open.
2. Knicks #15+ pick re-routed to Chicago, all 1st rounders unencumbered.

With the above stipulated ...

STAY
Dame, Sharpe, Grant

KEEP as useful players (sacrifices easily made as FILLER for the right trade)
Thybulle, Trendon, Eubanks, Walker and as many 2nds as possible to take swings at big, agile guys, Euros, etc. (Mike Schmitz)

TRADE for THE trade and to improve
Ant (good contract with upside still ...), Nas (good contract and potential left on the table), Nurkic (for a center who plays better D and can move and better motor), Reddish (with some value regained), and Keon (needs an opportunity with minutes).
All current and future first rounders on the table (unless the 1st or 2nd lottery pick this year).

NOT concerned about
Arcidiano, Winslow (out), Knox, Butler and Badji (bigs who wear suits)

Worst to Best Players to Get in Trade: Worst < OG < DeRozan < Siakam < Jaylen Brown or Mikal Bridges < Best

 

[LayneStaley]

30-35 mil for Grant and caring about a luxury tax don’t go together. Kinda like saying we are trying to win now around Dame while still tanking. We have no clear direction, which is why we will be a 13 to 8 seed every year until things change from the top. Jody, Cronin, and Chauncey need to go. Our front office is equivalent to Amateur hour.

 

[tlongII]

I’ll go!

 

[HoopsFanAZ]

Grant for 4 years at 30-32 million (team option on 5th) given the increase in salary cap would still be worth the return if he's then traded as compared to leaving for nothing.
Grant is only one move. The trade for his running mate at forward is the other. It's both not just one. If there's no big trade this summer [ ... except for hitting in the lottery ... ] then the clock has started on Dame being traded along with everyone with mileage. The Tankorama-Re-Build around Shaedon and Ant begins. IMHO and I cannot see anything but these two roads.

 

[BassPlaya]

Judging a kid without a full season.....just out of high school? Seriously?

 

[Tince]

30-35 mil for Grant and caring about a luxury tax don’t go together. Kinda like saying we are trying to win now around Dame while still tanking. We have no clear direction, which is why we will be a 13 to 8 seed every year until things change from the top. Jody, Cronin, and Chauncey need to go. Our front office is equivalent to Amateur hour.

The issue to me was always that Portland would have to pick between Hart/Grant on who they would re-sign. Signing both would put them well over the tax.

 

[TBpup]

I'm not fine with the "no matter the price" component. You already have Dame earning a boatload. Add in a highly overpaid albeit high-level role-player PF and where do you find the funds to improve the team elsewhere? Throwing "great" money at "good" is something the Blazers have done regularly and it as cost them options and flexibility.

I'm not good with it. Leads to more of same, borderline play-in team with few options. Pass.

Grant for $30-35M only hamstrings this franchise further. He is good, but not great. 4 rebounds per game from your PF who isn't that good of a one-on-one defender? He is much better as a 'help' defender (which the Blazer guards need plenty of) but it just seems like another overpay that keeps this team in a mediocre rut. Curious as to what other teams would pay him that much?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Warriors won 4 with the same template

Not entirely. They DRAFTED two other all NBA players, so it’s much easier to go into the tax area if you need to. Different dynamics

 

[HoopsFanAZ]

Grant for $30-35M only hamstrings this franchise further. He is good, but not great. 4 rebounds per game from your PF who isn't that good of a one-on-one defender? He is much better as a 'help' defender (which the Blazer guards need plenty of) but it just seems like another overpay that keeps this team in a mediocre rut. Curious as to what other teams would pay him that much?

Grant is an overpay and without getting the Go For It trade this summer, then he probably doesn’t move them out of the rut. The best part of this summer is making the big deal or shopping Dame.

 

[LayneStaley]

If we win the lottery and get Wemby would people want to move Dame for more young pieces/picks knowing him and Sharpe need a few season to develop or do we keep him?

 

[PCmor7]

Part of the issue is, we haven't been competing with Dame. Endless sweeps out of the Playoffs isn't exactly competing. I admire the loyalty, but that is all it is. It hasn't translated into wins. Who knows what the 1st round picks would get us. Likely, not a singular player as good of a scorer as Dame, but would the results be that much worse in terms of being a contender? I love Dame, but I'm a Blazer fan first before any single player. I want the team to contend. Not every year, but it's been over 20 years. Not exactly in the ballpark of having a chance at real success.

That's fair. It also goes to exactly what I was saying when I jumped into this conversation about trading Dame for Dame's sake. I'm saying that's not part of the deal, because Dame doesn't want traded. People actually might want to trade him for the very reasons you make, but they just don't want to say "Hey, Dame, we love you, you're great, but we don't think we can win with you, we think we have a better chance to contend without you and we're sending you to the team that gives us the best deal."

Because, I'll tell you what, if Blazer fans could get five firsts from Houston or five firsts from New Orleans for Dame, they aren't going to choose the latter, even though that clearly would be Dame's better shot at a ring.

Now, the organization has to determine a couple of things: 1, Is it worth keeping Dame even if it means likely mediocrity because his presence means more than winning and 2, Do you think you have a better chance to contend with five lottery tickets over five years and no Lillard or by finding the right combination with him.

Someone said if the Blazers get lucky and get the first pick and get Wembanyama it'd be the smart time to trade Dame for those five firsts. It's worth discussion, although I'd bet most people would think adding a talent like that to what we already have with Dame and the rest of this cast upgrades are ability to contend immensely.

 

[Natebishop3]

 

[PCmor7]

If we win the lottery and get Wemby would people want to move Dame for more young pieces/picks knowing him and Sharpe need a few season to develop or do we keep him?

Personally, I think you keep Dame. I don't think it takes Wembanyama that long to be a major factor. I think Sharpe will be improved next year, maybe considerably -- I remember people talking when we drafted him that he'd barely see the court this year but he's been a rotation guy, albeit one with peaks and valleys. Now you've got another scoring threat with Dame who also gives us length and rim protection. The whole complexion of the roster changes with that one addition.

I'd rather have a proven, great veteran to be a role model for Wembanyama to see every day rather than Wembanyama playing with Sharpe and Ant and Nas and whatever other guy we draft in the first round next year.

I can see the other side to the argument, but this is what makes sense to me.

 

[BankTeller]

If we win the lottery and get Wemby would people want to move Dame for more young pieces/picks knowing him and Sharpe need a few season to develop or do we keep him?

Yeah, reward the guy who’s stuck with this loser franchise by trading him if you win the draft.

That’s how you get star players to stay loyal lol.

 

[LayneStaley]

Yeah, reward the guy who’s stuck with this loser franchise by trading him if you win the draft.

That’s how you get star players to stay loyal lol.

It was a question not a statement.

 

[blazerkor]

Yeah, if Dame is getting traded then Grant needs to be a sign and trade to get what value we can get...

Unfortunately for those in the trade Dame camp... Dame is going to retire a Blazer so Ant goes and Nurk goes and future and maybe current picks go for a player or players that makes this team a contender.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Yeah, if Dame is getting traded then Grant needs to be a sign and trade to get what value we can get...

Unfortunately for those in the trade Dame camp... Dame is going to retire a Blazer so Ant goes and Nurk goes and future and maybe current picks go for a player or players that makes this team a contender.

Who are those players we are getting for a constantly injured center and an inconsistent undersized guard that doesn’t play defense?

 

[wizenheimer]

Who are those players we are getting for a constantly injured center and an inconsistent undersized guard that doesn’t play defense?

nobody knows at this point. Don't even know if Ant & Nurk will be shopped although it sure seemed like the Blazers were at least shopping Nurkic before the deadline

CJ effectively fetched Hart, a 1st, and a TPE big enough to absorb Grant....Hart fetched Thybulle, Reddish, and a 1st

Simons likely has value similar to CJ and above Hart

it was not ever going to be a case of trading CJ for an all-star. Those pipe-dreams were loopy. The same is true for Ant, and even more-so for Nurkic, who I believe has negative trade value relative to his talent.

IMO, the best Portland can hope for in trades at this point is adding players who fit better, have better length, along with some more draft capital. Olshey was allowed to empty Portland's cupboard and leave it bare. It's going to take time to fill it again. And of course, the dark cloud hanging over everything is the intentions of the Vulcans. Pretty clear to me the Blazers are at a major disadvantage because of ownership

 

[Mediocre Man]

nobody knows at this point. Don't even know if Ant & Nurk will be shopped although it sure seemed like the Blazers were at least shopping Nurkic before the deadline

CJ effectively fetched Hart, a 1st, and a TPE big enough to absorb Grant....Hart fetched Thybulle, Reddish, and a 1st

Simons likely has value similar to CJ and above Hart

it was not ever going to be a case of trading CJ for an all-star. Those pipe-dreams were loopy. The same is true for Ant, and even more-so for Nurkic, who I believe has negative trade value relative to his talent.

IMO, the best Portland can hope for in trades at this point is adding players who fit better, have better length, along with some more draft capital. Olshey was allowed to empty Portland's cupboard and leave it bare. It's going to take time to fill it again. And of course, the dark cloud hanging over everything is the intentions of the Vulcans. Pretty clear to me the Blazers are at a major disadvantage because of ownership

Great points

 

[wizenheimer]

there seems to be a faith within the trade-Dame narrative that trading Dame is the quickest way to contention. Yes, it's faith-based because it sure isn't supported by history

* Denver traded Melo and hasn't come close to contention since. They did make it to the WCF 3 years ago but none of the talent they had was from the Melo trade

* Utah traded Deron Williams and have never come close to contention since

* Minny traded KG and spent 13 straight years in the lottery; and 16 of the last 18 years. Yep, they have won 3 playoff game in the 18 years after trading KG

* Chicago traded Butler 6 years ago and spent 4 straight years in the lottery until they won 1 game in the playoffs last season. And they are 6 games under .500 right now and 11th seed in the east

* OKC traded Paul George 4 years ago and have spent three years averaging 25 wins and are 5 games under .500 right now and 12th seed

* the Pelicans traded AD 4 years ago, and have spent 3 years averaging 32 wins and are 2 games under .500 right now. And their big payoff this season for trading AD is potentially swapping a 12th pick for a 10th pick

********************************************

the track record of trading away franchise players and quickly becoming contenders doesn't really exist

I had a discussion in this forum with a big advocate of "Blazers-have-to trade-Dame-to-contend". I kept asking him what he saw as a realistic timeline between the trade and when the Blazers would contend. He dodged the question several times before he relented and estimated it would take 7 years. I think that was way too optimistic but at least I finally had a practical guess of how long it would take; meaning if Portland traded Dame this summer, they might be contenders by 2030....but might not

Danny Ainge found a dumbfuck Russian owner and perhaps the worst modern NBA GM and fleeced the Nets by trading 37 year old KG and 36 year old Pierce for a pick haul. That trade was in 2013. It tool 9 years before the Celtics made it to the finals. And it's one of those trades that is not a template for anything because of how stupid the Nets were
**********************************************

here's the thing: about 25 years passed between when Portland had prime Clyde Drexler and prime Damian Lillard. It's a really difficult thing to add a top-10 player. It's even more difficult for a small market team to hold onto that top-10 player. Shaq didn't win a championship in Orlando; KG didn't win one in Minnesota. AD and Chris Paul didn't win one in New Orleans. A player who demonstrates loyalty like Dame has is rare. It should be highly valued by the fan base.

we know what it takes for a small market team to contend: they have to have, at minimum, a top-10 player, a top-20 player, and a talented supporting cast. Blazers have the top-10-ish player now in Dame. So obviously the thinking is Portland needs to trade away the top-10 player they have so they can go out and find a new top-10 player AND a top-20 player AND several quality supporting talents. In other words, they need to find two players as talented as the two it took Portland 25 years to find. Easy-peasy.

and of course, with Ja Morant, the Blazers have an example of how great it is having a player with the quality of character that Dame has. More high value

and the latest rational seems to be that yes, Dame is a top-10 player, but he's the wrong type of top-10 player. He needed to be taller. So then, not only does Portland have to perform the generational feat of landing a new top-10 player, he has to be the right kind of top-10 player.....geeeeeezuz

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Who are those players we are getting for a constantly injured center and an inconsistent undersized guard that doesn’t play defense?

That made me think of watching Grayson Allen yesterday. Better 3 pt % and efg% than Simons and probably plays better defense. Only one less assist per 36. He makes $9 million a year.

 

[PCmor7]

That made me think of watching Grayson Allen yesterday. Better 3 pt % and efg% than Simons and probably plays better defense. Only one less assist per 36. He makes $9 million a year.

With due respect, this is why statistics are liars. Allen doesn't create shots for himself. The only reason he'd be a better defender is because of the defenders around him.

On top of that, he's a total punk.

And, finally, he looks like Ted Cruz.

I wouldn't have him on my team if he paid me just for the last fact alone.

 

[tiredhunter]

Is it doing him a solid if that's not what Dame wants, though?

I keep wanting to grab and shake people who think everyone's motivations are exactly the same. Like winning a ring is the be-all, end-all for everyone. How you win or chase the ring might be the important thing to some people. Building a legacy in one place might be the important thing to some people. Not moving around might be important to some people. Winning the ring might be important, but it might not be at the top of the pyramid of importance for Dame or someone else.

If you want to say trade Dame for five 1s because that's best for the Blazers, I could get on board with it. But can we stop talking like we'd be doing it primarily because of how much we care for Damian Lillard? Because that's a lie. Because everything he's ever said is that's not what he wants.

If Dame is copacetic with being the vet with that much youth, sure he can stay, but if we win a championship, it'll be when Dame is 35-38.

 

[PCmor7]

If Dame is copacetic with being the vet with that much youth, sure he can stay, but if we win a championship, it'll be when Dame is 35-38.

I doubt how old he is will matter to him or any of us if that happens, though, right?

 

[tiredhunter]

I doubt how old he is will matter to him or any of us if that happens, though, right?

likely not, but that far out there is the question of will he still be playing. (I'd think yes, but I can see a GM and Dame not being confident.)