Status Quo...

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Gronk Brady said:
Not to reach their full potential on a team where Dame and CJ take over half the shots and there won’t be consistent touches for them to develop... especially with ball hog ISO ball CJ being 7th in entire NBA in fga per game
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Dame and CJ had 2902 FGAs
Blazers as a team had 7132 FGAs
2902/7132=40.94%
At least be factual in your criticisms.
 
hoopsjock said:
Dame and CJ had 2902 FGAs
Blazers as a team had 7132 FGAs
2902/7132=40.94%
At least be factual in your criticisms.
Click to expand...

well, remember that 3 pointers count as 1.5 fg's vs 2 pointers count as 1.

Maybe if you include Damians assists, that bumps it up to 50%?

8)
 
BonesJones said:
You're talking about players in the present day and using career number how is 2010 or 2014 relevant to now?

There's ways to isolate a players defensive production using on/off numbers and comparing that to overall defensive production. But again, our defense was better than theirs.
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Because it doesn’t only factor in 2010 or 2014. It factors in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and the law of averages states that players are likely to stay *near* their averages. For instance, using your logic, you would’ve given ET a monster contract in 2012 based on him shooting 36.5% from 3... Law of averages tells us he is likely to regress closer to 30% based on his career numbers...

We can use this for someone like Tyreke Evans, who is unlikely to continue to shoot 40% from 3 and probably will shoot closer to 32%.

Technically we were also defensively “superior” to Utah, GSW, New Orleans as well. I don’t think anyone who has watched Blazer basketball would agree with that sentiment, but that’s what the *numbers* say. We will have to agree to disagree here.
 
This is a developing young team whether the Media, or you, or me thinks it is, or isn't. I find it hard to give up a CJ & Collins, for an injured, and pouty Kawhi Leonard, when there's ZERO guaranty he will re-sign with the team. That's a huge gamble. What if CJ develops more, and Collins meets the promise his potential shows. And what if Kawhi gets re-injured, and decides "I'm outta here? Then Neil has made a grave mistake. I get his decision. Now maybe he did offer that package, and Pop said "no!" The only ones who know are in those two boardrooms. I just don't see a cap on potential of this team yet. That's my opinion. Go Blazers!
 
Addition by substraction.
Losing Ed Davis opens up playing time for Caleb, Zach and Meyers who will get a chance to shine. The summer league team will get their chance. I like Simons but probably not for next year but Wade Baldwin should be the backup PG, Zach Collins should be the backup Center, Caleb the 3rd PF and Layman I actually hope gets a bigger role.
Our weakest area is inside scoring. If Meyers somehow lives up to his potential this year we'll be very good, top 4 with more success in the playoffs. If he isn't we wait till next year when Aminu finally becomes a free agent and opens up our entire forward rotation
 
tykendo said:
This is a developing young team whether the Media, or you, or me thinks it is, or isn't. I find it hard to give up a CJ & Collins, for an injured, and pouty Kawhi Leonard, when there's ZERO guaranty he will re-sign with the team. That's a huge gamble. What if CJ develops more, and Collins meets the promise his potential shows. And what if Kawhi gets re-injured, and decides "I'm outta here? Then Neil has made a grave mistake. I get his decision. Now maybe he did offer that package, and Pop said "no!" The only ones who know are in those two boardrooms. I just don't see a cap on potential of this team yet. That's my opinion. Go Blazers!
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I guess where I differ here is Collins, if they couldn’t get Kawhi because they didn’t want to let go of Collins I’d be pretty annoyed... Now CJ on the other hand I could understand saying I’m not giving up on him for a guy with all those question marks.
 
If Jake Layman can consistently hit that open jumper, he could be the hidden piece this team has been looking for. He has all the skills, and a beautiful shot. 3rd year, make or break. I've got a feeling he finally get's it going.
 
Gronk Brady said:
Not to reach their full potential on a team where Dame and CJ take over half the shots and there won’t be consistent touches for them to develop... especially with ball hog ISO ball CJ being 7th in entire NBA in fga per game
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Fake news. Fact check says your claim that Dame and CJ take over half the shots is undeniably false.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I guess where I differ here is Collins, if they couldn’t get Kawhi because they didn’t want to let go of Collins I’d be pretty annoyed... Now CJ on the other hand I could understand saying I’m not giving up on him for a guy with all those question marks.
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Interesting. I think I'm of the opposite opinion - I'd trade CJ but not Collins. My reasoning is because (1) we're stacked at G and thin at PF, and (2) we need to keep our rookie scale salaries. Those high-reward / low salary guys are absolutely crucial during this quasi-rebuild. Suddenly our "untouchables" have shifted to Dame (always), Simons, and Collins - our future success depends on them.
 
blue9 said:
Interesting. I think I'm of the opposite opinion - I'd trade CJ but not Collins. My reasoning is because (1) we're stacked at G and thin at PF, and (2) we need to keep our rookie scale salaries. Those high-reward / low salary guys are absolutely crucial during this quasi-rebuild. Suddenly our "untouchables" have shifted to Dame (always), Simons, and Collins - our future success depends on them.
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Fair enough, I’m just so not sold on Collins, he’s coming around for me, and I’m cheering for him just need to see a lot more. My only untouchable is Dame at this point.
 
blue9 said:
Interesting. I think I'm of the opposite opinion - I'd trade CJ but not Collins. My reasoning is because (1) we're stacked at G and thin at PF, and (2) we need to keep our rookie scale salaries. Those high-reward / low salary guys are absolutely crucial during this quasi-rebuild. Suddenly our "untouchables" have shifted to Dame (always), Simons, and Collins - our future success depends on them.
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I think we should trade Collins when his value is still high.
 
Not sold on Collins in either way - good or bad. Havent seen any consistency, which is likely because he's 20. But he's cheap with lots of upside. He's a low risk, high reward asset right now which makes him almost untouchable unless he's part of a superstar in return package. He's the anti Evan Turner.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Fair enough, I’m just so not sold on Collins, he’s coming around for me, and I’m cheering for him just need to see a lot more. My only untouchable is Dame at this point.
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I'm not sold on him. But, IMO, we're in the position where he HAS to pan out so that we either have a great player or a great trade chip. Ditto Simons. Those are the only players (aside from Nurk) currently on the roster who will determine whether we go up or down. We've seen what everyone else is capable of, for the most part. We're not going to get a team-changing FA anytime before 2020. So everything rides of Collins, Simons, and any future draft picks (and maybe Nurk if he becomes a legit two-way player).

yuyuza1 said:
I think we should trade Collins when his value is still high.
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You think he has high trade value? I think his current value gets us into talks for a rental player or someone on the downside of their career. I don't think he has value that will bring us back a mid-career, 2nd tier player with multiple years on their contract - and that's what I'd need if I were trading him. I hold Collins with the hope that he can get his value to that point. I see no point in trading him to become marginally better this season - Love doesn't make us good enough to hang with GSW, HOU, and probably not even LAL. I'm not even sure a straight Love/Collins swap makes us better at all. And, not that it's do-able, but the salary situation would be atrocious.
 
blue9 said:
You think he has high trade value? I think his current value gets us into talks for a rental player or someone on the downside of their career. I don't think he has value that will bring us back a mid-career, 2nd tier player with multiple years on their contract - and that's what I'd need if I were trading him. I hold Collins with the hope that he can get his value to that point. I see no point in trading him to become marginally better this season - Love doesn't make us good enough to hang with GSW, HOU, and probably not even LAL. I'm not even sure a straight Love/Collins swap makes us better at all. And, not that it's do-able, but the salary situation would be atrocious.
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I just don't think his ceiling is all that high, and I'd rather other teams not realize that before his value plummets. I'd use him in a deal for Love if we can also dump ET or Leonard in the process.
 
yuyuza1 said:
I just don't think his ceiling is all that high, and I'd rather other teams not realize that before his value plummets. I'd use him in a deal for Love if we can also dump ET or Leonard in the process.
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Fair enough. Dumping ET would be GREAT. I don't care about Meyers. But I'm not willing to give up even the slightest chance of future gains (Collins) just to dump ET.
Perhaps Collins' value never increases...in which case we're screwed. But dumping him now means we're definitely screwed.
 
blue9 said:
Perhaps Collins' value never increases...in which case we're screwed. But dumping him now means we're definitely screwed.
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Not necessarily. I'm not talking straight salary dump. I'm talking for a guy like Kevin Love, a multiple time all star in his prime.
 
Schilly said:
What if I'm not an apologist, what if I actually look at the situation as a realist and understand why Neil makes the moves he does... before he opens his mouth to explain himself.

Utah's big addition this year was Grayson Allen that's kind of a Status Quo move.

Imo
Stauskus > the baseball player who doesnt belong in the NBA
Curry > Napier
Simons and Trent look like solid solid Terry Stotts players.
Nirkic was brought back on a reasonable contract. People can say we bid against ourselves but there is some good faith involved in negotiating with your own players if you only let them get offers you end up with Crabbe offers.

On Kawhi I wouldn't send any of our key rotation guys for him either, dude just sat out a season to pout and is a 1 year rental, why would you give up a core piece from the 2nd youngest team in the NBA for that? Yeah maybe you stay as the 3 seed this year then you fall when he leaves.

So if all you want to see is negatives that's your right but actually being objective doesnt make you an apologist.
Click to expand...
Bravo

:cheers:
 
Schilly said:
What if I'm not an apologist, what if I actually look at the situation as a realist and understand why Neil makes the moves he does... before he opens his mouth to explain himself.

Utah's big addition this year was Grayson Allen that's kind of a Status Quo move.

Imo
Stauskus > the baseball player who doesnt belong in the NBA
Curry > Napier
Simons and Trent look like solid solid Terry Stotts players.
Nirkic was brought back on a reasonable contract. People can say we bid against ourselves but there is some good faith involved in negotiating with your own players if you only let them get offers you end up with Crabbe offers.

On Kawhi I wouldn't send any of our key rotation guys for him either, dude just sat out a season to pout and is a 1 year rental, why would you give up a core piece from the 2nd youngest team in the NBA for that? Yeah maybe you stay as the 3 seed this year then you fall when he leaves.

So if all you want to see is negatives that's your right but actually being objective doesnt make you an apologist.
Click to expand...

This is quite the rosy view. I'm not calling you an apologist-- I'm genuinely baffled with how divergent your perspective is to mine.

Curious to hear your thoughts on losing Ed (who by multiple accounts was the heart and soul of the team), because you clearly omitted his departure to fit your narrative.

Also curious to hear your thoughts on upsetting Dame to the point his supposed frustration with the team even became national news for a few days. Also curious to hear what you think how Neil himself told everyone that he and Dame wanted to bring in vets, and instead selected two 19 year olds. We got younger this summer.

Neil was extremely limited this summer-- we all realize this. But he brought it on himself with the moves he made in 2016 as he handcuffed his cap and had none of those so-called assets he brought back two years ago. This is why so many of us are disappointed. When more than 10 teams in the conference improve substantially, and we take a step back, you can understand why Dame and the fanbase get pissed.
 
I think the biggest improvements OKC, Utah and Minnesota have done was getting healthy. Tho the Butler issue might cancel out that improvement for Minnesota. Roberson (for OKC) will help, but I kind of think people are over-selling Westbrook and George as a combo. If CJ and Dame won't improve/are what they are because they are "already 28 and 27", (as someone on here said), what about Westbrook and George, who are both OLDER?

I think the biggest question regarding the Blazers next year, will be how they handle the loss of Ed Davis. And honestly, as much as I valued his contributions, the guy was a dinosaur in todays NBA. Couldn't hit a shot outside of 10 feet (if that).
 
yuyuza1 said:
Not necessarily. I'm not talking straight salary dump. I'm talking for a guy like Kevin Love, a multiple time all star in his prime.
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Our opinions apparently differ on how much Love improves our team. Personally, I see no significant improvement - by that I mean, he might get us a few more regular season wins but nothing more. At best he's the difference between missing the POs and a 2nd round exit. I don't see the point in spending potential assets on that.
 
yuyuza1 said:
This is quite the rosy view. I'm not calling you an apologist-- I'm genuinely baffled with how divergent your perspective is to mine.

Curious to hear your thoughts on losing Ed (who by multiple accounts was the heart and soul of the team), because you clearly omitted his departure to fit your narrative.

Also curious to hear your thoughts on upsetting Dame to the point his supposed frustration with the team even became national news for a few days. Also curious to hear what you think how Neil himself told everyone that he and Dame wanted to bring in vets, and instead selected two 19 year olds. We got younger this summer.

Neil was extremely limited this summer-- we all realize this. But he brought it on himself with the moves he made in 2016 as he handcuffed his cap and had none of those so-called assets he brought back two years ago. This is why so many of us are disappointed. When more than 10 teams in the conference improve substantially, and we take a step back, you can understand why Dame and the fanbase get pissed.
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I like you guys disagreeing like adults. Nice to see!
 


This is status quo. This is resignation to the fact that this is the squad Dame has to roll with. Dame is more mature than pretty much any other star and that's why he'll fight like hell to drag this team to the playoffs. In 2003, Vince Carter wanted his team to trade for veterans to take the next step-- instead they drafted a young Chris Bosh. VC then tanked the next season and forced his way out. Dame isn't that kinda guy, and that's why you build around him. Shame that Neil and his lack of foresight into team building will waste away the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.
 
yuyuza1 said:


This is status quo. This is resignation to the fact that this is the squad Dame has to roll with. Dame is more mature than pretty much any other star and that's why he'll fight like hell to drag this team to the playoffs. In 2003, Vince Carter wanted his team to trade for veterans to take the next step-- instead they drafted a young Chris Bosh. VC then tanked the next season and forced his way out. Dame isn't that kinda guy, and that's why you build around him. Shame that Neil and his lack of foresight into team building will waste away the best thing that ever happened to this franchise.
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Bosh was a decent rookie, had a nice 2nd year, and was a dominant player by his 3rd year. Vince Carter would've still been in his prime at that time so if he just allowed the process to pan out he could have played on a possible title contending team by the age of 30.
 
hoopsjock said:
Bosh was a decent rookie, had a nice 2nd year, and was a dominant player by his 3rd year. Vince Carter would've still been in his prime at that time so if he just allowed the process to pan out he could have played on a possible title contending team by the age of 30.
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Are you trying to equate Simons or Trent or even Zach to future hall of famer Chris Bosh? None of our guys have that ceiling.
 
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