Summer "BIG Swing" trade

[Ripcity4life77]

Sharpe this up and coming season is make or break for him -- time to put up ( more consistent ) or shut up ( trade him ) cause he is too talented to just be above average with moments of stardom.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Was Deni a "big swing trade"? Because a Deni-like player that I can sort of see us trying for is Jeremy Sochan. He's just turned 22 (younger than Nique Clifford, for example) but has had a couple of years in the league, like Deni. But is he worth giving up the #11 for? And do we want a player that San Antonio (in this scenario) doesn't want?

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Was Deni a "big swing trade"? Because a Deni-like player that I can sort of see us trying for is Jeremy Sochan. He's just turned 22 (younger than Nique Clifford, for example) but has had a couple of years in the league, like Deni. But is he worth giving up the #11 for? And do we want a player that San Antonio (in this scenario) doesn't want?

Deni shot 37.4% 3's his last year in Washington. Sochan shot a career high 30.8% last season.

Deni increased his minutes per game every year of his career - that is until the Blazers benched him behind Grant last season. Sochan had a career low in minutes last season in his 3rd year for a 34 win team.

I'd certainly pass if the cost is giving up any first round pick - let alone #11.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Deni shot 37.4% 3's his last year in Washington. Sochan shot a career high 30.8% last season.

Deni increased his minutes per game every year of his career - that is until the Blazers benched him behind Grant last season. Sochan had a career low in minutes last season in his 3rd year for a 34 win team.

I'd certainly pass if the cost is giving up any first round pick - let alone #11.

You make it sound like Deni was benched the whole year. He started 54 of his 72 games. He started the season alongside Grant.
He struggled, went to the bench, and played better. The way "turbo" plays, I think the 32 minutes a game he logged last year is pretty good. I don't want him getting hurt. But I assume that number will go way up this next year.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

The only player that, although a giant risk, would vault Portland into a legit contender in a few years is Zion.

If you can manage his weight and get him away from the Louisiana trauma - you’re adding an All-NBA player who is only 24/25.

When healthy: Zion > Luka

 

[SharpesTriumph]

The only player that, although a giant risk, would vault Portland into a legit contender in a few years is Zion.

If you can manage his weight and get him away from the Louisiana trauma - you’re adding an All-NBA player who is only 24/25.

When healthy: Zion > Luka

Reminds me of the Blazers trading for Shawn Kemp.

Difference was Kemp carried a team to the finals and outplayed Jordan.

Zion's never played a playoff GAME. Two seasons his team made it he was injured.

 

[wizenheimer]

You make it sound like Deni was benched the whole year. He started 54 of his 72 games. He started the season alongside Grant.
He struggled, went to the bench, and played better. The way "turbo" plays, I think the 32 minutes a game he logged last year is pretty good. I don't want him getting hurt. But I assume that number will go way up this next year.

a quibble...he averaged 30 minutes, not 32. So yeah, I'd normally expect his minutes to go up; not sure if it will be by much, maybe 32-33

here's the thing though: Portland had 4 players who started every game they played: Simons-Ayton-Camara-Grant. If all those players are back, is it realistic to assume Billups will suddenly make any of them backups? Or is it more realistic to assume that 3 of Sharpe-Deni-Scoot-Clingan foursome will be backup?...at least to start the season

Avdija certainly made a compelling case for not only starting, but being the best player on the team. But Chauncey-logic may very well send Sharpe to the bench instead of Grant

 

[Pinwheel1]

a quibble...he averaged 30 minutes, not 32. So yeah, I'd normally expect his minutes to go up; not sure if it will be by much, maybe 32-33

here's the thing though: Portland had 4 players who started every game they played: Simons-Ayton-Camara-Grant. If all those players are back, is it realistic to assume Billups will suddenly make any of them backups? Or is it more realistic to assume that 3 of Sharpe-Deni-Scoot-Clingan foursome will be backup?...at least to start the season

Avdija certainly made a compelling case for not only starting, but being the best player on the team. But Chauncey-logic may very well send Sharpe to the bench instead of Grant

Good point, yes, it was 30. I was looking at his last 5 games by mistake. But even at 30, he essentially tied for the most minutes he has ever averaged.

As far as "Chauncey-logic," not positive Deni will start, but I do think he averages the most minutes on the team.....even if it is off the bench. He needs to play with both the starters and the bench players. He makes every player better....except maybe Scoot. (The jury is still out for me on that one.)

 

[Natebishop3]

Reminds me of the Blazers trading for Shawn Kemp.

Difference was Kemp carried a team to the finals and outplayed Jordan.

Zion's never played a playoff GAME. Two seasons his team made it he was injured.

Not really the same thing. Kemp was old and over the hill by the time we traded for him. Zion is only 24.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

 

[andalusian]

Real interesting point about planning for what it would mean to extend Deni when the time arrives to do that from a cap perspective in the CBA Apron era.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Not really the same thing. Kemp was old and over the hill by the time we traded for him. Zion is only 24.

Both overweight and addicted.

 

[wizenheimer]

Good point, yes, it was 30. I was looking at his last 5 games by mistake. But even at 30, he essentially tied for the most minutes he has ever averaged.

As far as "Chauncey-logic," not positive Deni will start, but I do think he averages the most minutes on the team.....even if it is off the bench. He needs to play with both the starters and the bench players. He makes every player better....except maybe Scoot. (The jury is still out for me on that one.)

Deni & Scoot weren't good together; but with Deni, you have to wonder how skewed those stats are by his early season struggles

I think it's pretty revealing that the Scoot/Sharpe backcourt were a net 9.5 points better per 100-possessions than the Simons/Sharpe back court. It's also very revealing that the names of Simons-Ayton-Grant don't show up a single time in the top-5 duos, but do show up 7 times in the worst-5 duos

a bit of confirmation of all that looking at the worst 3 man combos:



lol at #20

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Lots of talk about how the Knicks might break up their starters - particularly the KAT Brunson duo

I wonder if we might have the defenders to hide KAT? Especially if we also flip Ant for a pick and Black?

Simons for Black, Anthony, #16
Ayton Timelord #11 #16 for KAT

Blazers rotation

KAT Clingan
Deni Walker
Grant Thybulle
Camara Sharpe
Scoot Black

Gives us that missing offensive star to round out our lineup.

 

[Natebishop3]

Ayton Timelord #11 #16 for KAT

That feels like a big overpay for KAT.

 

[andalusian]

Lots of talk about how the Knicks might break up their starters - particularly the KAT Brunson duo

I wonder if we might have the defenders to hide KAT? Especially if we also flip Ant for a pick and Black?

Simons for Black, Anthony, #16
Ayton Timelord #11 #16 for KAT

Blazers rotation

KAT Clingan
Deni Walker
Grant Thybulle
Camara Sharpe
Scoot Black

Gives us that missing offensive star to round out our lineup.

Do you really want a guy that is a nice #2 or #3 player and pay him $60m in the upcoming years in the apron CBA era? I do not think you do.

 

[wizenheimer]

Do you really want a guy that is a nice #2 or #3 player and pay him $60m in the upcoming years in the apron CBA era? I do not think you do.

yep

when the news about the new apron rule came out I really underestimated how big an impact they were going to have, especially when added to the new tax scales



what is that....around 450M in tax due? I'm assuming the Lakers and Bucks are in repeater territory. If Boston has no roster changes, their total tax bill next season will be 240M...yikes!

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Do you really want a guy that is a nice #2 or #3 player and pay him $60m in the upcoming years in the apron CBA era? I do not think you do.

I think the question would be if KAT can be the #1 offensive option on a team of deep role players. He got to back to back conference finals with different teams. If he can be our "star" than the 60 million he earns is fine.

I don't think I like watching him play basketball so not sure it's a trade I would ultimately want. But it is an intriguing idea.

There just not really a way to acquire these top30 level NBA players, especially in PDX. We might have missed the boat trying to do it with our draft picks. I'd rather roll the dice on a guy like KAT than a head case like Zion.

 

[Natebishop3]

I think the question would be if KAT can be the #1 offensive option on a team of deep role players. He got to back to back conference finals with different teams. If he can be our "star" than the 60 million he earns is fine.

I don't think I like watching him play basketball so not sure it's a trade I would ultimately want. But it is an intriguing idea.

There just not really a way to acquire these top30 level NBA players, especially in PDX. We might have missed the boat trying to do it with our draft picks. I'd rather roll the dice on a guy like KAT than a head case like Zion.

Zion is the bigger roll with the bigger payoff. KAT is what he is. When two teams in a row want to dump you.... that's not a good sign.

And I'm not even a fan of getting Zion at this point.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Zion is the bigger roll with the bigger payoff. KAT is what he is. When two teams in a row want to dump you.... that's not a good sign.

And I'm not even a fan of getting Zion at this point.

Zion has played a grand total of ZERO playoff games in his career. Missed every one of the 10 games the Pelicans were in.

I don't understand this board bizarre Zion infatuation.

I mean not to mention he currently has active RAPE allegations. You think a prospective owner is going to want to bid on that?

I'm all for getting an all-star level player better than KAT. These guys just aren't available though.

 

[Natebishop3]

Zion has played a grand total of ZERO playoff games in his career. Missed every one of the 10 games the Pelicans were in.

I don't understand this board bizarre Zion infatuation.

I mean not to mention he currently has active RAPE allegations. You think a prospective owner is going to want to bid on that?

Did you miss the part where I said I don't want him?

KAT has been on back to back conference teams who immediately want to move him. That's a HUGE red flag.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Did you miss the part where I said I don't want him?

KAT has been on back to back conference teams who immediately want to move him. That's a HUGE red flag.

I don't think it's a red flag, it's not a secret mystery. The guy is a horrible defender at the center position and on a massive contract.

He doesn't make sense to pair with other limited players also on massive deals like a center in Gobert or poor defender in Brunson.

Blazers are in a different position as we have defenders but no star offensive player like those teams have. We could build the team with him as our #1 option. Those teams can't as they have Edwards/Brunson. The idea for us is it would be like Harden being an MVP in Houston after a bench guy in OKC.

Not saying I'd do the deal for certain but just found it to be an interesting hypothetical.

 

[andalusian]

I think the question would be if KAT can be the #1 offensive option on a team of deep role players. He got to back to back conference finals with different teams. If he can be our "star" than the 60 million he earns is fine.

no he can not, we have many years in MN to prove it. He can be a #2 (next to Ant) or #2.5 (next to Brunson) on deep teams to make it to the CF (this year was a fluke tho, they just got super lucky with Boston being super injured at the right time.

This is not the guy to pay $60m/year for.

 

[Natebishop3]

I don't think it's a red flag, it's not a secret mystery. The guy is a horrible defender at the center position and on a massive contract.

He doesn't make sense to pair with other limited players also on massive deals like a center in Gobert or poor defender in Brunson.

Blazers are in a different position as we have defenders but no star offensive player like those teams have. We could build the team with him as our #1 option. Those teams can't as they have Edwards/Brunson. The idea for us is it would be like Harden being an MVP in Houston after a bench guy in OKC.

Not saying I'd do the deal for certain but just found it to be an interesting hypothetical.

Okay but the Knicks are the team that you're talking about. Putting him around a bunch of solid defenders? Bridges, OG and Hart?

 

[Pinwheel1]

I only listen to these guys when their video is posted here, but I really enjoy listening to them. I like them better than the vast majority of podcasts. For whatever reason, they do not irritate me, even when I disagree with them.

Regarding this video, I agreed with almost all of it. Especially this part........in the age of the various aprons, is it really a bad thing if the Blazers just played it out and let the 88 million from Matisse, Williams, Simons, and Ayton expire? (or wait for the deadline)

Now of course, if you get a pick and an expiring contract for any of them, then you do it. But cutting that number from your payroll is a luxury to have when resigning the others. They were ok with keeping Grant if there were no takers, and maybe he helps down the road in a trade for matching salaries. I would definitely move him, especially if we draft a wing at 11.

 

[BigGameDamian]

Do you really want a guy that is a nice #2 or #3 player and pay him $60m in the upcoming years in the apron CBA era? I do not think you do.

It’s easy to say no to overpaying or maybe even over trading. I just think that you’re going to have to be willing to spend and overpay a little if you want to win. Especially in a smaller market.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

It’s easy to say no to overpaying or maybe even over trading. I just think that you’re going to have to be willing to spend and overpay a little if you want to win. Especially in a smaller market.

Yeah I think eventually if you really target a single player that you think will be much better on your team you overpay to get him here. Thats basically what we did with Deni.

Now would KAT be better here or worse? I really have no idea, he has a ton of downsides.

But theres a number of cases of these allstar guys like Jimmy Butler/Kyrie that are nearly worthless on some teams and then lead others to contend in the finals. So just because KAT had some major faults doesn't mean he can't be better on his next team. Requires management to do a super good job understanding their own situation and how that player can contribute in their next stop.

 

[andalusian]

It’s easy to say no to overpaying or maybe even over trading. I just think that you’re going to have to be willing to spend and overpay a little if you want to win. Especially in a smaller market.

$60m/year to KAT when you do not have a certified #1 guy and cast that just needs him as a #2/#3 guy (as he was in NYK) is not willing to spend and overpay, it is being irresponsible and set the franchise back for the duration of his contract. Just makes no sense for Portland. It is basically making Portland the next pre-Ant Minnesota. No thank you.

 

[wizenheimer]

Regarding this video, I agreed with almost all of it. Especially this part........in the age of the various aprons, is it really a bad thing if the Blazers just played it out and let the 88 million from Matisse, Williams, Simons, and Ayton expire? (or wait for the deadline)

that's only relevant if it actually happens. And if that's the plan, there's no reason, at all, to start any of them next season or to play them major minutes

but it's pretty safe to say that isn't what the F.O. intends

 

[Foxx]

Max Kat just to handicap us and have an injury riddled tenure here. Nah thanks