Game Thread SUMMER LEAGUE GAME# 5 - ??? VS BLAZERS - JULY 15, 2018 - SUNDAY, 5:00 PM PDT, ESPN2

[James lamphear]

The thing with swanigan that his decision making it just been terrible this summer.

 

[hoopsjock]

It's just surprising, and I totally disagree. 100%, unequivocally. Olshey said this?

Well he said it to Chauncey Billups who obviously played with Sheed. He seemed to agree with Olshey and was gushing about how good he thinks Collins is most of the game.

 

[TBpup]

Missed the game but see that it was Jenkins and Goodwin to the rescue. Baldwin (double-double) was the only one of the squad who had been doing so well that showed up again. Collins wasn't bad either but Swanigan, Trent, Simons and Layman all had poor games at once.

Next.

 

[calvin natt]

I don’t get why the team is still dealing with Layman. I just don’t get it.

 

[Propagandist]

Well he said it to Chauncey Billups who obviously played with Sheed. He seemed to agree with Olshey and was gushing about how good he thinks Collins is most of the game.

Well must be true then.

 

[hoopsjock]

I don’t get why the team is still dealing with Layman. I just don’t get it.

Huh, have you not watched the games? He's been great until tonight, hustles on defense, has sneaky athleticism, and does have a sweet shot that just needs to start falling consistently and he'd be a rotation level player in the NBA.

 

[hoopsjock]

Well must be true then.

I'm not saying they're right, just reporting what was said.

 

[James lamphear]

Trent mid game needs improve but overall it wasn't a bad game for Gary. He reb well got steals and overall defense was pretty good he need get off the screens quicker but that will come.

 

[calvin natt]

Huh, have you not watched the games? He's been great until tonight, hustles on defense, has sneaky athleticism, and does have a sweet shot that just needs to start falling consistently and he'd be a rotation level player in the NBA.

Great in summer league huh? His third? You know who was unreal in SL? Donte Green. Remember him? And “just needs his shot to fall” is the nice way of saying he’s a shitty shooter. His athleticism is maybe average for NBA guys in his position.

 

[James lamphear]

This was off night shooting for Layman but it was the first in 5 games. They also play close attention to him tonight.

 

[hoopsjock]

Great in summer league huh? His third? You know who was unreal in SL? Donte Green. Remember him? And “just needs his shot to fall” is the nice way of saying he’s a shitty shooter. His athleticism is maybe average for NBA guys in his position.

I'm not talking about just summer league. There is a huge difference between a guy like Green with ugly form and Layman who has a good looking shot. I'd say Martell Webster is the better comparison. Jake has all the tools to be a really good player in this league. It's a question of whether he can put it together in real games, not if he is any good or not.

 

[tester551]

Huh, have you not watched the games? He's been great until tonight, hustles on defense, has sneaky athleticism, and does have a sweet shot that just needs to start falling consistently and he'd be a rotation level player in the NBA.

Yep, I've been watching him & disagree with the conclusion that he'll be a rotation player.

 

[hoopsjock]

Yep, I've been watching him & disagree with the conclusion that he'll be a rotation player.

I didn't say he'll be a rotation player, just that he does possess the ability to become one which is why he is still on the roster.

 

[LayneStaley]

It's just surprising, and I totally disagree. 100%, unequivocally. Olshey said this?

He said it and I disagree too, I wish it was true though since Sheed was probably my favorite Blazer all time but I don’t see Zach ever being what Wallace was offensively. Wallace himself never reached his full potential but that unblockable release was a thing of beauty.

 

[Propagandist]

He said it and I disagree too, I wish it was true though since Sheed was probably my favorite Blazer all time but I don’t see Zach ever being what Wallace was offensively. Wallace himself never reached his full potential but that unblockable release was a thing of beauty.

Amen, brother, I feel the same way. And Sheed's demeanor was intricately tied to his style of play, sometimes frenetic, sometimes lackadaisical. I find it almost laughable to compare the two.

 

[mook]

I can kind of see some of the Sheed comparisons. Sheed was a year older as a rookie, but the stats aren't that far apart, aside from MPG and FG%. Both long, fast, athletic PF/C types much more advanced on the defensive end.

 

[Natebishop3]

I can kind of see some of the Sheed comparisons. Sheed was a year older as a rookie, but the stats aren't that far apart, aside from MPG and FG%. Both long, fast, athletic PF/C types much more advanced on the defensive end.

I just don't..... Sheed attacked the rim like a madman. Collins doesn't dunk much.

 

[Natebishop3]

 

[Drttimmy]

I just don't..... Sheed attacked the rim like a madman. Collins doesn't dunk much.

Amen, brother, I feel the same way. And Sheed's demeanor was intricately tied to his style of play, sometimes frenetic, sometimes lackadaisical. I find it almost laughable to compare the two.

I think you both nail the main difference. Sheed was much more aggressive offensively, had a scorer's mentality when he wanted, and it was established when he entered the league. He also developed his game inside first, before becoming a perimeter threat. Collins is sorta working from the opposite direction. But first and foremost, Collins doesn't have that scorer mentality.

I can buy a Sheed/Collins comparison defensively, but even that is a long stretch. Sheed could single cover in the post and not get pushed down. For not lifting weights, he had tremendous natural strength especially in the lower body. They're both cerebral players and Collins may eventually be his equal as a defender.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Chauncey seems to think Collins is a 4...

Most intelligent people do

 

[James lamphear]

I think Zach going get there without getting push inside I already see a lot more strength in his body and this summer I really haven't seen him getting blown up inside on defense.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

re: Sheed

I understand some of you aren't "feelin'" my and Olshey's Sheed comparator for Collins, and you all bring up very good points. However, your points belie the whole idea of a comparator. I compared Collins to Sheed. Who in the history of the NBA or elsewhere do you compare Sheed to? (Not Collins to) I doubt you'll be able to come up with anyone. They'd have to have the following...

• "attacks the rim"
• high release jumper
• "yell ball don't lie" or at least get a lot of techs
• go to a highly ranked college
• have attitude problems
• be great but not wanting to be "the man"
• doesn't love the spotlight
• loves children
• gray patch in the back of his head
• tattoos all over his body
  
• .......

There is NO other human, let alone NBA player, who is or was like this. You could do the same for every other NBA player. If these are your metrics the whole idea of a Comparator is null and void, you can poke holes through anyone who brings up a comparator, which is fine we're just having a conversation. Or perhaps, in your idea of a comparator, "attitude" is the most important thing, or maybe "style of play" is what matters. If so, I'd agree that Sheed and Collins aren't that much alike. However, what I was looking at was that both are long, tall dudes, both are defense first players, both have some skill on the offense end of the court, both were good shooters....

 

[illmatic99]

Collins is maybe Sheed in Boston the year before he retired. I think Spencer Hawes is probably a better comparison. Or maybe Joakim Noah with a jumper as his absolute ceiling. I've seen nothing to suggest Collins has a decent offensive game. His impact will have to be on defense.

Sheed as a youngin was an elite athlete and dominant post player. Not a good comp.

 

[dviss1]

Collins is maybe Sheed in Boston the year before he retired. I think Spencer Hawes is probably a better comparison. Or maybe Joakim Noah with a jumper as his absolute ceiling. I've seen nothing to suggest Collins has a decent offensive game. His impact will have to be on defense.

Sheed as a youngin was an elite athlete and dominant post player. Not a good comp.

He has elite post footwork and all the tools (length, attitude, work ethic) to become great on offense.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

@BonesJones was allways right about Swanigan. Not an nba player. I would cut him to create a roster Spot

How 'bout you assume that we know that you believe Swanigan sucks and move on to discussing other matters?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Collins is maybe Sheed in Boston the year before he retired. I think Spencer Hawes is probably a better comparison. Or maybe Joakim Noah with a jumper as his absolute ceiling. I've seen nothing to suggest Collins has a decent offensive game. His impact will have to be on defense.

Sheed as a youngin was an elite athlete and dominant post player. Not a good comp.

Got to disagree here. Hawes was always inept defensively - they're not remotely similar (other than being tall and white).
Of course Collins is not going to approach young 'Sheed's athleticism - few NBA players could. But they were both skinny dudes who really competed on defense and had quick feet. They also block(ed) a lot of shots without having humungous wingspan because of agility. Collins is a lot closer to Sheed than Hawes.

(Sheed was all athleticism when he came out - I don't think he did have much of a post game early. He developed that deadly turnaround later.)

 

[Rastapopoulos]

He's good at rebounding. We outrebounded the other team by 10 this game.

He's good at winning in Summer League.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I don’t wanna keep shitting on him but biggie is making me miss trob and Noah.

That's crazy. Swanigan has more instincts in his little finger than those two. They were stiffs in the bodies of NBA players. Biggie is an NBA player in the body of a bouncer.

 

[illmatic99]

Got to disagree here. Hawes was always inept defensively - they're not remotely similar (other than being tall and white).
Of course Collins is not going to approach young 'Sheed's athleticism - few NBA players could. But they were both skinny dudes who really competed on defense and had quick feet. They also block(ed) a lot of shots without having humungous wingspan because of agility. Collins is a lot closer to Sheed than Hawes.

(Sheed was all athleticism when he came out - I don't think he did have much of a post game early. He developed that deadly turnaround later.)

Hawes is Collins' nearly identical stat comparison. It's interesting 538 projects him as a "defensive specialist."

Yi is another one, but he has a far better handle than Zach, and I question how old he was when he came into the NBA. Blatche and Raef LaFrentz/Okur are others I look at.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Hawes is Collins' nearly identical stat comparison. It's interesting 538 projects him as a "defensive specialist."

Yi is another one, but he has a far better handle than Zach, and I question how old he was when he came into the NBA. Blatche and Raef LaFrentz/Okur are others I look at.

Using their stats, he was an average NBA defender as an unexperienced rookie with spotty PT and basically devoid of muscle. So, yeah, he's going to be a good defender. Apparently, 538 doesn't think his FT% and TS% will go way up - I do. He shot 74% from the line in college, only 64% his rookie year. I think it's more a measure of how uncomfortable he was playing against bigger dudes. Last year was basically a red shirt year, making it terrible for projections. The site is badly in need of some sort of "confidence interval", because the delta on such a prediction with mediocre data is huge.