Politics Supreme Court Lets Trump Proceed on Wall Plans Amid Legal Fight

[julius]

Sorry, been busy, we won the Media Division in the Rip City 3 on 3 tournament. Hurrah for the good guys!

But now I have a little time to jump into this.

No, a wall doesn't do anything to fix the problem of illegal immigration. All it does is deflect from the real problems and issues.

A wall is not a solution, it's an obstacle. Nothing more, nothing less.

If we want to fix illegal immigration then lets do it. Right now we're only addressing half the issue.

1. Make hiring illegals illegal. It's very simple, increase the penalties and enforcement for hiring illegals. Whether you're a business or a consumer let's ramp this shit up. You want to put a dent in things, $10,000 fine per illegal, you want to crush it, 1 year in jail per illegal hired. I mean come on, while the war on drugs isn't one of our most successful wars at least we arrest and punish both the user and dealer. In this case we're only arresting the users. We're not going after the "dealers" of jobs to illegals. Farmers, roofers, landscape maintenance, restaurants, lots of places depend on an illegal workforce. If you're in real estate you see it. From landscapers, to construction, repair. Lots of those places depend on illegals.

2. Make profiting off of illegals illegal. How fucked up is it that we claim that we don't want them here but banks and financial institutions are allowed to lend to them. They can finance cars, they can get a home mortgage, sure, the interest rates are considerably higher but so fucking what. If they are so fucking terrible then lets stop profiting off of them. Again, you can't fix the problem if there are no penalties from profiting off of them.

3. Let's call them what they are, an exploitable work force. They're not "taking our jobs!" they are being hired by people who don't want to pay things like workers comp and health insurance. We are just fucking these people over, intentionally, for profit. That's the plain truth. All these terrible things we say about them, they clog up our emergency rooms, they don't pay taxes. We're doing that, we're causing that problem.

4. Let's spend some money and effort and stop them as a work force. Then we'll finally understand how much this country needs an exploitable workforce. Hell, maybe we don't need them. But right now we don't know. Right now we have no way of legally hiring vital workers for some of the industries that I've mentioned.

5. If you're a Christian, if you're really a conservative you will support and understand what I'm advocating. If you're someone who just wants to abuse and fuck over brown people then you want a wall.

Well said SPD

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Sorry, been busy, we won the Media Division in the Rip City 3 on 3 tournament. Hurrah for the good guys!

But now I have a little time to jump into this.

No, a wall doesn't do anything to fix the problem of illegal immigration. All it does is deflect from the real problems and issues.

A wall is not a solution, it's an obstacle. Nothing more, nothing less.

If we want to fix illegal immigration then lets do it. Right now we're only addressing half the issue.

1. Make hiring illegals illegal. It's very simple, increase the penalties and enforcement for hiring illegals. Whether you're a business or a consumer let's ramp this shit up. You want to put a dent in things, $10,000 fine per illegal, you want to crush it, 1 year in jail per illegal hired. I mean come on, while the war on drugs isn't one of our most successful wars at least we arrest and punish both the user and dealer. In this case we're only arresting the users. We're not going after the "dealers" of jobs to illegals. Farmers, roofers, landscape maintenance, restaurants, lots of places depend on an illegal workforce. If you're in real estate you see it. From landscapers, to construction, repair. Lots of those places depend on illegals.

2. Make profiting off of illegals illegal. How fucked up is it that we claim that we don't want them here but banks and financial institutions are allowed to lend to them. They can finance cars, they can get a home mortgage, sure, the interest rates are considerably higher but so fucking what. If they are so fucking terrible then lets stop profiting off of them. Again, you can't fix the problem if there are no penalties from profiting off of them.

3. Let's call them what they are, an exploitable work force. They're not "taking our jobs!" they are being hired by people who don't want to pay things like workers comp and health insurance. We are just fucking these people over, intentionally, for profit. That's the plain truth. All these terrible things we say about them, they clog up our emergency rooms, they don't pay taxes. We're doing that, we're causing that problem.

4. Let's spend some money and effort and stop them as a work force. Then we'll finally understand how much this country needs an exploitable workforce. Hell, maybe we don't need them. But right now we don't know. Right now we have no way of legally hiring vital workers for some of the industries that I've mentioned.

5. If you're a Christian, if you're really a conservative you will support and understand what I'm advocating. If you're someone who just wants to abuse and fuck over brown people then you want a wall.

Im mostly with you until #5. Thats a false choice, you either agree with your solutions or you aren't a conservative or a Christian, and you want to screw over brown people, like theres no answer in between or other answers.

Last I checked, people all over the political and religious spectrums have disagreed on how to handle situations with others with similar beliefs and it did not prohibit them for still having those general ideologies.

I will come back to this in the morning when I am well caffeinated.

 

[mook]

Well, drugs is a start. Apart from the illegals, I don't want them making their way into my country. That said, I think it will take more than a wall in and of itself. it's gonna take technology, and human resources, as well.

Do you think a wall is the most cost-effective means of preventing illegals and drugs from entering the country? Why?

 

[mook]

Build it high, built it long, and built it deep!

How high is high enough to optimally accomplish what you want? When does Mexico reimburse us for it?

 

[mook]

For those against a wall, what does it hurt to have one? If it even saves one life from an illegal alien it’s worth it.

Why don't we line all our roads with giant pillows? If it even saves one life, it's worth it.

What if we could save 1000 lives by using the same money to offer free vaccines to children? Isn't that 1000x more worth it?

My taxes dollars are not in infinite supply. I prefer the government focus on creating the greatest good for the most people with that money. I've never seen anyone even try to present a reasonable case that a massive wall has the best return on investment.

 

[ABM]

Well, drugs is a start. Apart from the illegals, I don't want them making their way into my country. That said, I think it will take more than a wall in and of itself. it's gonna take technology, and human resources, as well.

What I said earlier in the thread.

Moreover, and I may be wrong in this assessment, but I see a whole lot of screwed up countries out there....with many of those respective citizens looking at quickly getting into the US as their hope in life. That's fine, just do it legally, please. Oh, and you can't go hop-skip countries getting here, either. Seek asylum in Mexico first, then see where that goes.

 

[Lanny]

Well, it is usually kosher for neighbors to pay for a common fence.

None of my neighbors offered to pay for half of their portion of my new fence. I am not going to bill them for it. However, when Mexico agrees to pay for a nearly useless Wall out of their money then I will smile and let them go ahead hoping they'll learn their lesson and choose more wisely on how to spend their money in the future.

Some people have to learn the hard way. The truly sad part is that some people, all too many people, never learn. I think the Trump cult fits into the category of never learning.

 

[julius]

What I said earlier in the thread.

Moreover, and I may be wrong in this assessment, but I see a whole lot of screwed up countries out there....with many of those respective citizens looking at quickly getting into the US as their hope in life. That's fine, just do it legally, please. Oh, and you can't go hop-skip countries getting here, either. Seek asylum in Mexico first, then see where that goes.

I wonder if you realize what you're saying is kind of silly? "do it legally, please". The people seeking asylum are doing it legally, yet are being turned back (and/or separated from their families at the border).

How can you, as a Christian, be ok with tearing families apart, and separating children from their parents? REGARDLESS of what you think about them taking children across countries to get here (and let's be honest, the people who are migrating in the "caravan" are not the people we should be worried about), how can you be ok with that practice?

Doesn't matter which president started it (since everyone says Obama did it...even though it's disingenuous to bring that up).

 

[Lanny]

I wonder if you realize what you're saying is kind of silly? "do it legally, please". The people seeking asylum are doing it legally, yet are being turned back (and/or separated from their families at the border).

How can you, as a Christian, be ok with tearing families apart, and separating children from their parents? REGARDLESS of what you think about them taking children across countries to get here (and let's be honest, the people who are migrating in the "caravan" are not the people we should be worried about), how can you be ok with that practice?

Doesn't matter which president started it (since everyone says Obama did it...even though it's disingenuous to bring that up).

As usual, you are absolutely correct.

 

[ABM]

I wonder if you realize what you're saying is kind of silly? "do it legally, please". The people seeking asylum are doing it legally, yet are being turned back (and/or separated from their families at the border).

I believe the issue and new laws stems from folks country-hopping to get here. This issue is much more far-reaching than our southern border. I hope and trust that Trump and his administration will continue to seek to find some happy mediums. IMO, that shouldn't preclude them from building the wall/technologies, though.

 

[ABM]

Look, I understand have a completely different view than most of you on this matter. I'm doubting we're not going to change each other's minds. And, that's OK.

 

[Lanny]

I believe the issue and new laws stems from folks country-hopping to get here. This issue is much more far-reaching than our southern border. I hope and trust that Trump and his administration will continue to seek to find some happy mediums. IMO, that shouldn't preclude them from building the wall/technologies, though.

Still, entering at a check point and requesting asylum is totally legal except under Trump's eyes. Trump views it as more rat infested, diseased, MS13 infiltrated, ISIS terrorist immigrants not being worthy of due process, toothbrushes or even showers. And then there's the issue of depriving immigrant children from their families.

 

[ABM]

Still, entering at a check point and requesting asylum is totally legal except under Trump's eyes. Trump views it as more rat infested, diseased, MS13 infiltrated, ISIS terrorist immigrants not being worthy of due process, toothbrushes or even showers. And then there's the issue of depriving immigrant children from their families.

I'd have to see reports of that. Feel free to send. Perhaps, it's a capacity issue. Anyway, I only watch FoxNews, so I'm pretty certain I'm getting brainwashed.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Why do we talk about Illegals like they aren't people? That's what bothers me. They're talked about like they are lower than us because their mothers expelled them out of their bodies in the "wrong" place (which apparently is anywhere but here). Where I agree with @SlyPokerDog is that much of the "issue" is that they are an exploitable workforce, who are willing to do jobs most people don't want to do, for less than what they should get paid, all while being off the government's tax grid, so it comes down to money.

I'd say that drug trafficking and sex trafficking and the like are really just small pieces of the puzzle and distraction tactic used to say how bad illegal immigrants are.

Since you guys brought up how a "Christian" should think in your perspective, I believe you have it wrong. Christians should love them like they would anyone else, it shouldn't be a political issue of if they should be here or not, that's not our place to decide. There's no "go back where you came from" for a Christian, there is you're a person and therefore you have the same value on this earth as I do. It should never be about the money and exploiting them, or dang it they took our jobs (thanks Southpark), or whatever all of that is secondary.

When it comes to the matters of money, if we are going to invest billions of dollars into something, spending those billions on feeble attempts to keep people out, we should be incentivizing businesses to hire citizens and illegals to become citizens, I'm not sure I have great ideas on how to do that, but I'm sure we could come up with ideas.

 

[Lanny]

I'd have to see reports of that. Feel free to send. Perhaps, it's a capacity issue. Anyway, I only watch FoxNews, so I'm pretty certain I'm getting brainwashed.

Here you go.
I thought this was common knowledge.
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/asylum-united-states

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Why do we talk about Illegals like they aren't people? That's what bothers me. They're talked about like they are lower than us because their mothers expelled them out of their bodies in the "wrong" place (which apparently is anywhere but here). Where I agree with @SlyPokerDog is that much of the "issue" is that they are an exploitable workforce, who are willing to do jobs most people don't want to do, for less than what they should get paid, all while being off the government's tax grid, so it comes down to money.

I'd say that drug trafficking and sex trafficking and the like are really just small pieces of the puzzle and distraction tactic used to say how bad illegal immigrants are.

Since you guys brought up how a "Christian" should think in your perspective, I believe you have it wrong. Christians should love them like they would anyone else, it shouldn't be a political issue of if they should be here or not, that's not our place to decide. There's no "go back where you came from" for a Christian, there is you're a person and therefore you have the same value on this earth as I do. It should never be about the money and exploiting them, or dang it they took our jobs (thanks Southpark), or whatever all of that is secondary.

When it comes to the matters of money, if we are going to invest billions of dollars into something, spending those billions on feeble attempts to keep people out, we should be incentivizing businesses to hire citizens and illegals to become citizens, I'm not sure I have great ideas on how to do that, but I'm sure we could come up with ideas.

Awesome post!

 

[ABM]

Here you go.
I thought this was common knowledge.
https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/asylum-united-states

Hmmmm....

Asylum is a protection granted to foreign nationals already in the United States or at the border who meet the international law definition of a “refugee.” The United Nations 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol define a refugee as a person who is unable or unwilling to return to his or her home country, and cannot obtain protection in that country, due to past persecution or a well-founded fear of being persecuted in the future “on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.” Congress incorporated this definition into U.S. immigration law in the Refugee Act of 1980.

 

[Lanny]

Hmmmm....

Asylum is a protection granted to foreign nationals already in the United States or at the border who meet the international law definition of a “refugee.” The United Nations 1951 Convention and 1967 Protocol define a refugee as a person who is unable or unwilling to return to his or her home country, and cannot obtain protection in that country, due to past persecution or a well-founded fear of being persecuted in the future “on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion.” Congress incorporated this definition into U.S. immigration law in the Refugee Act of 1980.

Correct, it is in both International law and American law.
Trump illegally impedes refugees from entering at check points to request asylum.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

And the top ten countries whose citizens were granted asylum in the U.S. included (from most to least):

1. China
2. El Salvador
3. Guatemala
4. Honduras
5. Mexico
6. India
7. Nepal
8. Ethiopia
9. Somalia
10. Eritrea

China alone accounted for an impressive 36% of the asylum grants in 2016, and it has topped the list in every one of the last several years... El Salvador comes in next at a mere 8.6%.

The overall grant rate is on the decline, and was at 48% in 2016.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclop...t-people-granted-asylum-the-us-come-from.html

 

[ABM]

Personally, I think we should be working towards compassionate measures to solve our own refugees issues before adding to those woes...

 

[julius]

I believe the issue and new laws stems from folks country-hopping to get here. This issue is much more far-reaching than our southern border. I hope and trust that Trump and his administration will continue to seek to find some happy mediums. IMO, that shouldn't preclude them from building the wall/technologies, though.

The issue stems from brown skinned people being this generations easy target. "Speak English!" "go back to your country!" "Love it or leave it!" "MY relatives came through blah blah blah".

No matter how many times you repeat it, the people coming here (via the southern border) AREN'T the issue. They're just an easy distraction from things.

If someone comes illegal, yes get rid of them. BUT most of the people who are coming aren't coming illegally. They're just coming brown.

 

[julius]

Personally, I think we should be working towards compassionate measures to solve our own refugees issues before adding to those woes...

Here's the thing. We can do both. Not only that, what would it take to help these people? Money from taxes.

What did Trump cut a lot of? Taxes...so you can't have it both ways.

 

[ABM]

Here's the thing. We can do both. Not only that, what would it take to help these people? Money from taxes.

What did Trump cut a lot of? Taxes...so you can't have it both ways.

Personally, I think our churches should step up more to help our needy/homeless. This is a veritable commandment from Jesus! I was involved in Portland and soon to be in Nashville. Sure, it takes finances, but also human resources - i.e. volunteer efforts. Checkbook faith only goes so far.

 

[julius]

I'd have to see reports of that. Feel free to send. Perhaps, it's a capacity issue. Anyway, I only watch FoxNews, so I'm pretty certain I'm getting brainwashed.

Shock.

Try looking independently for this information. You might be surprised at the slant that Fox News puts on it (much like the slant CNN and MSNBC put on things).

 

[julius]

Personally, I think our churches should step up more to help our needy/homeless. This is a veritable commandment from Jesus! I was involved in Portland and soon to be in Nashville. Sure, it takes finances, but also human resources - i.e. volunteer efforts. Checkbook faith only goes so far.

That's all good, BUT...most churches are an aging population. And it's offering part time (at best) offer for something that needs a full time solution.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

We should force the homeless to build the wall.

 

[ABM]

We should force the homeless to build the wall.

You go first

 

[julius]

We should force the homeless to build the wall.

Something like the WPA wouldn't be a bad thing to incorporate (not for the wall though). But if someone doesn't want to work/etc, they're not gonna work.

 

[ABM]

That's all good, BUT...most churches are an aging population....

Not an excuse. I know 70+-year-olds that have more energy than some youth!!

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

We should force the homeless to build the wall.

My generation I don't quite understand I have friends who have chosen to be homeless and live in downtown, or their cars because they and I quote, "don't want to work".