Tanking

[Everything Beagle]

yeah. Tons of money now. So much so that i don't see how the bottom falls out once sponsorship funds fade.
Which i beleive is only a matter of time.

We’ve seen recession/austerity hit a CBA negotiation and yeah it’s not fun… but at the same time I don’t think the NBA is any more overvalued thank any other sport.

 

[Phatguysrule]

That is irrelevant to my point. Even with the best player ever they couldn't win without putting in hard work in the offseason. Where he was drafted is irrelevant in the context of my post.
But to cater to your point, i do not believe the bulls tanked to get Jordan.

They had terrible players to be bad enough to get that high in the draft.

Putting in hard work in the off season is a given if you want to win big. But you have to have enough talent first.

Best way to get that is high in the draft.

Next best way is to be smarter than everyone else and draft better.

 

[riverman]

To me our best building blocks have not been through the draft but through trades.
Deni, Toumani, Thybulle, Banton, Ayton, Williams...Grant signed as a free agent but had been part of the CJ trade capital first deal. from the draft Clingan was a steal, Scoot was a good pick and Sharpe as well..our first round pick on this team is Ayton ..thank you Phoenix!

 

[THE HCP]

2 months? There’s less than a month left.

I love that THIS is what you got from that entire tweet.

 

[KingSpeed]

Didn't they play them almost every year? Id have to go back and check but that validifies it even more.

They lost to Pistons in 88, 89, and 90. Pippen was drafted in 87.

 

[SharpeScooterShooter]

They lost to Pistons in 88, 89, and 90. Pippen was drafted in 87.

Thats right. Whats crazy is before that, one year they lost to the Blazers in the first round. Not sure how that could have happened but, i just read it.

 

[wizenheimer]

Thats right. Whats crazy is before that, one year they lost to the Blazers in the first round. Not sure how that could have happened but, i just read it.

the year Portland won the championship:

 

[PtldPlatypus]

the year Portland won the championship:

View attachment 72550

View attachment 72551

Can you imagine the night-to-night competitiveness of a league with that kind of parity, where only one team won fewer than 30 games, and only one won more than 50?

 

[Hoopguru]

To me our best building blocks have not been through the draft but through trades.
Deni, Toumani, Thybulle, Banton, Ayton, Williams...Grant signed as a free agent but had been part of the CJ trade capital first deal. from the draft Clingan was a steal, Scoot was a good pick and Sharpe as well..our first round pick on this team is Ayton ..thank you Phoenix!

Yeah, even the teams that have been notorious for tanking really never took the next step tell they made big time trades. Players are so young and unproven when they jump to NBA.

 

[Hoopguru]

Over the years Id say Wolves, Clippers & Sixers were notorious tankers and since 90 how many ships have they won? They each got better through trades the years they finished over 500.

 

[wizenheimer]

Can you imagine the night-to-night competitiveness of a league with that kind of parity, where only one team won fewer than 30 games, and only one won more than 50?

it was pretty intense

and the one team that won more than 50 games got swept in the WCF by....Portland

 

[Mediocre Man]

Article on ESPN+

They have Portland at 10th in the rebuild process and saying the exact thing some of us have been screaming about


Players on rookie-scale contracts: 5 (Scoot Henderson, Donovan Clingan, Shaedon Sharpe, Kris Murray, Jabari Walker)

The strategy: Since moving on from Damian Lillard 18 months ago, it has been difficult to discern the overall strategy for Portland, especially after a 21-61 season to kick off the post-Lillard era. The Blazers got a haul of draft picks and players back in the Lillard and Jrue Holidaydeals and they added promising young forward Toumani Camara from the Phoenix Suns as part of the price of getting Deandre Ayton out of Phoenix. But trading a lottery pick and another future pick last offseason for Deni Avdija, who has played well in Portland, was a win-now move -- not a rebuilding one. Still having the likes of Ayton, Jerami Grant, Robert Williams III and Anfernee Simons on the roster is also hard to square with where this team is sitting, as is the fact the Blazers have little cap flexibility for at least another season.

Is it working? Portland winning a bunch of games over the past few weeks could be taken as a sign of things moving in the right direction. But by doing so, Portland has moved out of the top 10 spots in the draft lottery, likely preventing this group from adding another high-level player. Henderson has improved and Clingan has had a fine rookie year patrolling the paint, but it's fair to wonder whether Portland's next foundational player is currently on this roster.

Estimated return to relevance: Portland established itself over the back half of the season as a legitimately sound defensive team. But it's going to take a lot more than that to climb up the West standings. Right now, it's unclear how the talent boost is going to arrive.

 

[PCmor7]

Article on ESPN+

They have Portland at 10th in the rebuild process and saying the exact thing some of us have been screaming about


Players on rookie-scale contracts: 5 (Scoot Henderson, Donovan Clingan, Shaedon Sharpe, Kris Murray, Jabari Walker)

The strategy: Since moving on from Damian Lillard 18 months ago, it has been difficult to discern the overall strategy for Portland, especially after a 21-61 season to kick off the post-Lillard era. The Blazers got a haul of draft picks and players back in the Lillard and Jrue Holidaydeals and they added promising young forward Toumani Camara from the Phoenix Suns as part of the price of getting Deandre Ayton out of Phoenix. But trading a lottery pick and another future pick last offseason for Deni Avdija, who has played well in Portland, was a win-now move -- not a rebuilding one. Still having the likes of Ayton, Jerami Grant, Robert Williams III and Anfernee Simons on the roster is also hard to square with where this team is sitting, as is the fact the Blazers have little cap flexibility for at least another season.

Is it working? Portland winning a bunch of games over the past few weeks could be taken as a sign of things moving in the right direction. But by doing so, Portland has moved out of the top 10 spots in the draft lottery, likely preventing this group from adding another high-level player. Henderson has improved and Clingan has had a fine rookie year patrolling the paint, but it's fair to wonder whether Portland's next foundational player is currently on this roster.

Estimated return to relevance: Portland established itself over the back half of the season as a legitimately sound defensive team. But it's going to take a lot more than that to climb up the West standings. Right now, it's unclear how the talent boost is going to arrive.

Anyone who says trading the 14th pick in the draft for Deni Avidja, a player that was 23 years old, was a "win now move" doesn't deserve to be called an expert.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Anyone who says trading the 14th pick in the draft for Deni Avidja, a player that was 23 years old, was a "win now move" doesn't deserve to be called an expert.

If it prevents you from getting 2 or 3 more similarly capable players (if we would have nailed those 2 picks, 14th and the other could be early lotto, and if we could have had a top 3 pick this year) it could lower our ceiling though.

It's not about Deni as much as the potential we missed out on.

If we were one piece away it was a good move. But even with Deni I feel like we're at least 2 pieces away. How do we add those pieces without giving up our other pieces if we're not drafting earlier?

Where we stand now I feel like we're going to need the best performing front office and draft team in the league if we want to compete.

I'm not sure we have that. I'm not sure we have what ot takes to put something like that together.

 

[PCmor7]

If it prevents you from getting 2 or 3 more similarly capable players (if we would have nailed those 2 picks and miss out on a top 3 pick this year) it could lower our ceiling though.

It's not about Deni as much as the potential we missed out on.

If we were one piece away it was a good move. But even with Deni I feel like we're at least 2 pieces away. How do we add those pieces without giving up our other pieces of we're not drafting earlier?

We're going to need the best performing front office and draft team in the league if we want to compete.

It doesn't, though. It's getting a player who can be a foundational player in the window that I think too many people here are fixated on.

Getting a very good player is better than missing out on three players who weren't going to amount to anything, and Deni Avidja was a growing player just like Shaedon, Scoot, Camara and Clingan. Very few people thought of Deni Avidja as a guy that puts a team over the top when we acquired him. He was a good, cheap young player who's happened to turn out to be a lot better a lot faster than we expected him to.

This is actually the smart way to rebuild. Buy low on someone who already has shown something in the league. There was no one at that point in the draft that was going to be as good a bet to succeed as Avidja.

And, if you are just going to keep drafting players with the idea that you are going to draft high in perpetuity, that means you can't evaluate talent. You end up like the Sixers, who waited for years to get their great player but never had enough around him for it to matter.

I get MM's sentiment. I get your sentiment. It's super to imagine we're going to get the sexy pick six years in a row and build this unbeatable squad just by being mired in crappy basketball. It doesn't work that way, most of the time. Look at the standings in the league every year and you'll see that. And, BTW, we still don't know where the balls will land in the lottery and we don't know what the Blazers will add through this year's lottery pick either by using it or trading it. Heck, for all we know we might trade five vets this offseason and be picking in completely different spots this year or next.

So, anyway, I stand by what I said: Drafting a 23-year-old who hadn't done much in the league was not a "win-now" move, and shame on the ESPN for saying it was in hindsight. It's a hot take designed to get clicks, but taking 3 minutes to breathe and examine it shows no substance to it.

 

[Phatguysrule]

It doesn't, though. It's getting a player who can be a foundational player in the window that I think too many people here are fixated on.

Getting a very good player is better than missing out on three players who weren't going to amount to anything, and Deni Avidja was a growing player just like Shaedon, Scoot, Camara and Clingan. Very few people thought of Deni Avidja as a guy that puts a team over the top when we acquired him. He was a good, cheap young player who's happened to turn out to be a lot better a lot faster than we expected him to.

This is actually the smart way to rebuild. Buy low on someone who already has shown something in the league. There was no one at that point in the draft that was going to be as good a bet to succeed as Avidja.

And, if you are just going to keep drafting players with the idea that you are going to draft high in perpetuity, that means you can't evaluate talent. You end up like the Sixers, who waited for years to get their great player but never had enough around him for it to matter.

I get MM's sentiment. I get your sentiment. It's super to imagine we're going to get the sexy pick six years in a row and build this unbeatable squad just by being mired in crappy basketball. It doesn't work that way, most of the time. Look at the standings in the league every year and you'll see that. And, BTW, we still don't know where the balls will land in the lottery and we don't know what the Blazers will add through this year's lottery pick either by using it or trading it. Heck, for all we know we might trade five vets this offseason and be picking in completely different spots this year or next.

So, anyway, I stand by what I said: Drafting a 23-year-old who hadn't done much in the league was not a "win-now" move, and shame on the ESPN for saying it was in hindsight. It's a hot take designed to get clicks, but taking 3 minutes to breathe and examine it shows no substance to it.

I'm not panicking. I'm just trying to figure out how we're going to add enough talent to overcome our disadvantages.

 

[PCmor7]

When we're at a point where we're arguing that Deni Avidja was too good a player to trade for if you're rebuilding, then we might as well be complaining that the Blazers screwed up by trading for Camara and drafting Shaedon and Scoot because their play also has put us in a worse position to get the top pick.

The Blazers will be closer to be a legitimate contender next year by adding Konner Knueppel to this roster than the Wizards will be by adding Cooper Flagg to their roster, IMO.

 

[Phatguysrule]

When we're at a point where we're arguing that Deni Avidja was too good a player to trade for if you're rebuilding, then we might as well be complaining that the Blazers screwed up by trading for Camara and drafting Shaedon and Scoot because their play also has put us in a worse position to get the top pick.

The Blazers will be closer to be a legitimate contender next year by adding Konner Knueppel to this roster than the Wizards will be by adding Cooper Flagg to their roster, IMO.

How many draft opportunities did we trade away for those guys?

I'm not sure it's the same.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Adding Deni wasn't necessarily bad. Again, I love the kid.

But giving up what we did (when we did it) may turn out to have been too much, too early.

*Edit* or maybe just failing to actually full on tank was the problem...

Or maybe we could luck out in the draft. Maybe there's an actual mechanism where the NBA does choose who deserves what pick. And maybe the way we played to close out this season actually does earn us a top three pick. That would be cool.

 

[PCmor7]

I'm not panicking. I'm just trying to figure out how we're going to add enough talent to overcome our disadvantages.

I didn't say you were panicking. The whole subject of my post to which you replied was that Deni Avidja wasn't a win-now move. It was a shrewd move that added another element to a young corps, just like we would have done had we drafted 14, except Deni had more a chance to hit, and he did, and ESPN is just throwing stuff out there to get us talking that really makes zero sense when you examine it.

I think a lot of people fantasize about getting the belle of every ball and are disappointed that it probably won't happen without realizing the girl we're already dancing with is still pretty hot and has a nice personality, too. It's not the end of the world to be a good, improving team that's still got lottery resources.

I'll say it one more time: Being upset over a likelihood when we don't know what is going to happen with the Blazers this offseason is a waste of energy. Imagining it is fine. But to the point that we're cursing our franchise for making smart moves because it pushes us farther from a No. 1 pick we never had a strong likelihood of getting is misguided. It's more about just wanting to get that player every year, but the unsaid part is that you have to be a failing franchise to be that if that is where you want to be.

 

[PCmor7]

How many draft opportunities did we trade away for those guys?

I'm not sure it's the same.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Adding Deni wasn't necessarily bad. Again, I love the kid.

But giving up what we did (when we did it) may turn out to have been too much, too early.

*Edit* or maybe just failing to actually full on tank was the problem...

Or maybe we could luck out in the draft. Maybe there's an actual mechanism where the NBA does choose who deserves what pick. And maybe the way we played to close out this season actually does earn us a top three pick. That would be cool.

OK, if you aren't saying adding Deni was a bad move, then why are we debating? I said ESPN was doing awful analysis by saying acquiring Deni was a win-now move. That no contenders this year traded for Deni is proof in itself it wasn't a win-now move, is it not?

We gave up Malcolm Brogdon, the 14th pick and a 2029 first-round pick -- a year when we still have two first-rounders. What moves did you think were presentable for those assets that Deni? I can't think of any. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that NOT trading for Deni and just picking 14th in this last draft when a player like Deni was available to essentially be your 14th pick would have amounted to worse mismanagement than anything we've seen from the Blazers this season.

One can argue about not moving Ant, Grant and Ayton. I think those are debatable. Debating that Deni Avidja was a move a team makes if it's trying to win now, to me, isn't really debatable. He hadn't accomplished enough in this league before this season to be more than an intriguing prospect.

 

[Phatguysrule]

OK, if you aren't saying adding Deni was a bad move, then why are we debating? I said ESPN was doing awful analysis by saying acquiring Deni was a win-now move. That no contenders this year traded for Deni is proof in itself it wasn't a win-now move, is it not?

We gave up Malcolm Brogdon, the 14th pick and a 2029 first-round pick -- a year when we still have two first-rounders. What moves did you think were presentable for those assets that Deni? I can't think of any. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that NOT trading for Deni and just picking 14th in this last draft when a player like Deni was available to essentially be your 14th pick would have amounted to worse mismanagement than anything we've seen from the Blazers this season.

One can argue about not moving Ant, Grant and Ayton. I think those are debatable. Debating that Deni Avidja was a move a team makes if it's trying to win now, to me, isn't really debatable. He hadn't accomplished enough in this league before this season to be more than an intriguing prospect.

I think by "win now" what was meant (or the way that I took it) was that you were no longer trying to build through the draft if you trade for Deni.

I think it was too early to make a move that prevented us from building through the draft. We need two or three more guys like Deni. And we need one of them to be much better than Deni.

So trading draft assets that could have gotten those guys looks like a " win now" move. Because you're preventing adding more talent by adding him. You're capping your ability to keep adding more talent.

If you think we have enough now to win then it's a good move. This would make this a win now move.

Or

If you know that we're going to add more talent with some of it being better than anybody currently on the team, then it's a good move.

Or

If you don't actually care about winning a championship and you just want to win some games and act like a competitive team then it's a fine move.

Or

If we get uncommonly lucky or have some internal promise that we're going to get high draft picks by winning rather than tanking then it's probably a good move.

But again, if those aren't the case, then I don't know how we plan on adding more talent. IMO, we need another player better than anybody in our team now. And then we probably need another Deni or two on top of that.

 

[PCmor7]

Truthfully, I still think the year to be bad is next year. I think that's where you get the real players that can be difference-makers.

I'd be thrilled to get lucky in the lottery and add Cooper Flagg to this core. If you told me I only could pick in the top three in one of the two drafts, this year or next, though, I'd pick next, because I think Dybantsa and Peterson both are better prospects than Flagg, and definitely better if you are looking for a superstar around which to build your contender. Honestly, when I think about it, I'm not sure Flagg next season would get the Blazers out of the lottery in 2026, although I think the Blazers would be a much, more solid top-six in the Western Conference for years with him as part of that group from 2026 on.

If you really want to embrace the tank fully, though, and you get the top pick, I think you take Ace Bailey, because he's off-the-charts bust potential but also has the highest ceiling in this draft, IMO, if he puts it together. If we're just swinging for the fences every year, that would be the play.

 

[PCmor7]

I think by when now what was meant (or the way that I took it) was that you were no longer trying to build through the draft if you trade for Deni.

I think it was too early to make a move that prevented us from building through the draft. We need two or three more guys like Deni. And we need one of them to be much better than Deni.

So trading draft assets that could have gotten those guys looks like a " win now" move. Because you're preventing adding more talent by adding him. You're capping your ability to keep adding more talent.

If you think we have enough now to win then it's a good move. This would make this a win now move.

Or

If you know that we're going to add more talent with some of it being better than anybody currently on the team, then it's a good move.

Or

If you don't actually care about winning a championship and you just want to win some games and act like a competitive team then it's a fine move.

Or

If we get uncommonly lucky or have some internal promise that we're going to get high draft picks by winning rather than tanking then it's probably a good move.

But again, if those aren't the case, then I don't know how we plan on adding more talent. IMO, we need another player better than anybody in our team now. And then we probably need another Deni or two on top of that.

This is where we disagree: I see Deni as building through the draft. I don't think building through the draft is just picking guys if the guys for which you are trading haven't had a real chance to establish themselves in the league. Deni was kind of in the same position as Shaedon before this year.

Hypothetically, if for whatever reason the Rockets lost their minds and traded Jabari Smith for a package built around say Ayton and the Blazers' lottery pick, I wouldn't consider that not building through the draft. I think you limit yourself if you think of draft picks as something you have to make when they're really resources/assets that you can use to make picks or trade for talent. If you are getting a top talent from a recent draft by trading your lottery pick, that's still building through the draft. The goal is to get young talent, correct? It's getting the maximum value for your resources.

 

[inconceivable]

Truthfully, I still think the year to be bad is next year. I think that's where you get the real players that can be difference-makers.

I'd be thrilled to get lucky in the lottery and add Cooper Flagg to this core. If you told me I only could pick in the top three in one of the two drafts, this year or next, though, I'd pick next, because I think Dybantsa and Peterson both are better prospects than Flagg, and definitely better if you are looking for a superstar around which to build your contender. Honestly, when I think about it, I'm not sure Flagg next season would get the Blazers out of the lottery in 2026, although I think the Blazers would be a much, more solid top-six in the Western Conference for years with him as part of that group from 2026 on.

If you really want to embrace the tank fully, though, and you get the top pick, I think you take Ace Bailey, because he's off-the-charts bust potential but also has the highest ceiling in this draft, IMO, if he puts it together. If we're just swinging for the fences every year, that would be the play.

now that's a hot take

 

[PCmor7]

now that's a hot take

You mean taking Bailey over Flagg or that Dybantsa and Peterson are better prospects than Flagg? I think a lot of draft guys probably would agree with the latter.

As for the former, it's not my take. It's simply stating that if you REALLY are embracing the tank, you throw caution to the wind and take the player who has the most upside regardless of bust potential, and that's Bailey, not Flagg, because Bailey is the guy who can absolutely take over games with his offense and I don't think Flagg is ever going to be that guy. I think Cooper Flagg is a great all-around talent but if he's your No. 1 scoring option you probably aren't a legit NBA title contender. Bailey can be that guy where Flagg can't be, and if you roll the dice on that and he's not, you're just picking high again the next year and you can do it again and again until finally you get that guy.

That isn't my approach, but it's the consistent play if you are as full tank here as some seem to be. Just like I said about getting Avidja, I'm about getting talent. Trading for Avidja had a better chance to hit than picking at 14. Flagg has a better chance at being a better player than Bailey, even if Bailey has the higher upside. I don't think the odds of Bailey reaching his potential are so good that I'd pass on Flagg, who has a much higher floor and doesn't have that much lower a ceiling than Bailey.

 

[PCmor7]

My ideal scenario is to finish just outside the play-in and move up through the lottery. If you don't get the first pick, then I'm probably drafting Bailey, so long as there aren't any red flags in the interview process that makes you think he won't develop, and swing for the fences.

If the Blazers stay where they are, then I'm thinking Knueppel, McNeely or Tre Johnson, because they all are value around 10 and I think are even more valuable to the Blazers because they possess a consistent skill we don't have as great shooters. If I managed to trade Ant/Grant/Ayton and somehow get one or two more picks before 20 in this draft, then I'm looking at Demin and Essengue, because they are long and versatile and fit the model that's been working for us. Demin's passing is elite and he's a solid defender; great passers make great teams. Essengue is a taller Batum/Tou with more offensive upside, IMO.

If that happens, you've cleared the vets that occasionally are winning games for you and this becomes Scoot's/Shaedon's team next year and I think they develop along with those other young pieces but you still are in the lottery. Then, in 2026, you add another high-end piece and you let it bake for a couple of years. To me, at least, that's the ideal scenario.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Truthfully, I still think the year to be bad is next year. I think that's where you get the real players that can be difference-makers.

I'd be thrilled to get lucky in the lottery and add Cooper Flagg to this core. If you told me I only could pick in the top three in one of the two drafts, this year or next, though, I'd pick next, because I think Dybantsa and Peterson both are better prospects than Flagg, and definitely better if you are looking for a superstar around which to build your contender. Honestly, when I think about it, I'm not sure Flagg next season would get the Blazers out of the lottery in 2026, although I think the Blazers would be a much, more solid top-six in the Western Conference for years with him as part of that group from 2026 on.

If you really want to embrace the tank fully, though, and you get the top pick, I think you take Ace Bailey, because he's off-the-charts bust potential but also has the highest ceiling in this draft, IMO, if he puts it together. If we're just swinging for the fences every year, that would be the play.

Unfortunately the odds if us getting a great pick in the next draft are pretty slim

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Deni is a win now move because he has a cheap contract and can play well for a team wanting to win today. He cost assets with zero value today but a high future value. ESPN point is fair that its debatable if that was the best strategy for the Blazers. We are using his salary slot, harming our draft pick, lost a lottery pick, plus still owe Washington a pick that could be as high as #2 overall.

Their overall point is one that yes many of us have been screaming about for years. The various moves Portland does together make no sense for this team. Tanking to the 3rd worst record last season in an epically weak draft and now with players like Deni and our vets dropping to the back of the lottery in a loaded draft. Holding onto Grant Ayton Ant Timelord when they had value, which now is worth less, and cost our youth development time as well as harmed our pick.

By the time the Blazers are ready to content Deni will be due a huge raise. So what will be the point of all these years he outplayed his contract and harmed our pick?

 

[PCmor7]

Unfortunately the odds if us getting a great pick in the next draft are pretty slim

The odds always are against everyone.

Next draft you've got more elite talent at the top. If the Blazers are playing with this Scoot, Shae, Toumani, Deni, Clingan, Murray, Rupert, whoever it drafts this year ... that's probably going to get a worse record next year even if the young players continue to progress.

I just get the feeling now I'm debating people who are looking and fixating on reasons to feel down. We've gotten so far off what I posted to start with, everything is just going off on side arguments to say the team's going to be bad no matter what it does.

 

[PCmor7]

Deni is a win now move because he has a cheap contract and can play well for a team wanting to win today. He cost assets with zero value today but a high future value. ESPN point is fair that its debatable if that was the best strategy for the Blazers. We are using his salary slot, harming our draft pick, lost a lottery pick, plus still owe Washington a pick that could be as high as #2 overall.

Their overall point is one that yes many of us have been screaming about for years. The various moves Portland does together make no sense for this team. Tanking to the 3rd worst record last season in an epically weak draft and now with players like Deni and our vets dropping to the back of the lottery in a loaded draft. Holding onto Grant Ayton Ant Timelord when they had value, which now is worth less, and cost our youth development time as well as harmed our pick.

By the time the Blazers are ready to content Deni will be due a huge raise. So what will be the point of all these years he outplayed his contract and harmed our pick?

If that was true those teams would have traded for Deni in the offseason. He was available and a lot of contending teams had more to offer than the Blazers did.

He was not proven. Therefore he was not a win-now move.

And then you're going into this wild speculation of what might happen in an unspecified amount of time in the future based on an unspecified contribution by Avidja based on unknown salary cap and unknown cap space for the Blazers.

Good lord. I read some of this stuff and it's more depressing than the last season of Game of Thrones. It's just unrealistically pessimistic.

I'm out. I have better things to do with my day than engage with people who crap on the team for making bad moves or good moves or any moves or not making moves or the players outperforming their contracts or underperforming their contacts. I don't think any of you will ever be happy. If this team wins the title in 10 years, there still will be some cloud around it for you. Yeesh.