Zombie THE 2012 BIDEN/RYAN DEBATE - THE BATTLE OF CHAPLIN HILLS II

[MARIS61]

Innovation (read: motivation) can be used in every single job that I can think of.

Absolutely!

Innovations nearly always come from the employee, not from the employer.

Who do you think is more apt to bring their innovative ideas to their employer, perhaps even work on their development on their own time?

Someone on minimum wage, with no healthcare, who's boss threatens to fire them if they don't vote for his candidate?

or

Someone who feels they are paid a fair wage for their efforts, has healthcare through their employer, and feels their boss genuinely values their contributions?

 

[MickZagger]

It's a little silly to claim your "good looks" when you've already shown us pictures of yourself.

So much meat in that post and you stick to discussing my good looks?

Kinda par for the course for someone who constantly uses words like, cute and silly...

 

[MARIS61]

Please point to where Vice President Biden's substance was superior to Congressman Ryan's.

That's easy. The 2012 Vice Presidential Debate.

 

[ABM]

Absolutely!

Innovations nearly always come from the employee, not from the employer.

Who do you think is more apt to bring their innovative ideas to their employer, perhaps even work on their development on their own time?

Someone on minimum wage, with no healthcare, who's boss threatens to fire them if they don't vote for his candidate?

or

Someone who feels they are paid a fair wage for their efforts, has healthcare through their employer, and feels their boss genuinely values their contributions?

Did you bother to read my post on co-ops? I've always maintained that employee-owned companies are the best solution in all of this stuff.

 

[MARIS61]

So much meat in that post and you stick to discussing my good looks?

Kinda par for the course for someone who constantly uses words like, cute and silly...

You could at least give him credit for spelling them correctly.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Unions serve a very important and useful role in our society. it is a shame that a few bad apples spoil the bunch as it seems that this board attaches some kind of negative stigma with being in a union. For whatever small disadvantages or inequities arise from them, overall they help stabilize and insure fairness in the workplace and union workers, in general, are good hard working people.

 

[ABM]

Absolutely!

Innovations nearly always come from the employee, not from the employer.

Who do you think is more apt to bring their innovative ideas to their employer, perhaps even work on their development on their own time?

Someone on minimum wage, with no healthcare, who's boss threatens to fire them if they don't vote for his candidate?

or

Someone who feels they are paid a fair wage for their efforts, has healthcare through their employer, and feels their boss genuinely values their contributions?

I doubt you'd like it if all real estate agents had to throw their respective sales into a big kitty and everyone was compensated equally. I know I wouldn't like it in my job...as a fully-commissioned sales representative.

 

[MARIS61]

I doubt you'd like it if all real estate agents had to throw their respective sales into a big kitty and everyone was compensated equally. I know I wouldn't like it in my job...as a fully-commissioned sales representative.

I'm completely not getting your point here.

Personally I've put the effort into developing innovations at 3 companies I worked for.

A union job where I designed some safety equipment to prevent an injury that was repeatedly happening on the assembly line.

The Federal Government (a quasi-union job) where I contributed several plans and ideas to save taxpayer money.

A "small" business (120 employees) that started in the owner's garage and grew into a success because of the sincere gratitude and care the owner had for his employees, whom despite not being represented by a union he paid them union-level wages and perks.

As for employee-owned companies, ask a Bi-Mart employee how that's working out for them.

 

[ABM]

I'm completely not getting your point here.

My point is, that for the "most" part, where production/innovation incentive exists, so does excellence. Unions are essentially socialized environments that don't promote that kind of activity.............only "equality" for all.....dead wood, or not.

PS: What's up with Bi-Mart?

 

[MickZagger]

Unions serve a very important and useful role in our society. it is a shame that a few bad apples spoil the bunch as it seems that this board attaches some kind of negative stigma with being in a union. For whatever small disadvantages or inequities arise from them, overall they help stabilize and insure fairness in the workplace and union workers, in general, are good hard working people.

Repped

 

[MARIS61]

My point is, that for the "most" part, where production/innovation incentive exists, so does excellence. Unions are essentially socialized environments that don't promote that kind of activity.............only "equality" for all.....dead wood, or not.

PS: What's up with Bi-Mart?

On the contrary, nearly all union jobs offer cash incentives for innovative ideas from their employees. I received nearly $4,000 total for my several ideas at the union shop and the Feds. The small business gave me a raise.

Bi-Mart is employee-owned, pays slave wages, works people part-time mostly and has no real bennies to speak of.

 

[ABM]

On the contrary, nearly all union jobs offer cash incentives for innovative ideas from their employees. I received nearly $4,000 total for my several ideas at the union shop and the Feds. The small business gave me a raise.

Bi-Mart is employee-owned, pays slave wages, works people part-time mostly and has no real bennies to speak of.

I'm gonna go out on a limb, here, and say that you speak of exceptional situations. Good for you for being incented in your union positions. I have never encountered that in the 3 union jobs I have worked for. I have worked for, both, union, and non-union shops. In fact, I worked for a non-union print shop, whereas the union was attempting every dirty trick in the book to get the employees to come over to their "side". Oh, let me reiterate, it was the union "leaders" who were attempting such tactics. Gee, I wonder why?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I'm gonna go out on a limb, here, and say that you speak of exceptional situations. Good for you for being incented in your union positions. I have never encountered that in the 3 union jobs I have worked for. I have worked for, both, union, and non-union shops. In fact, I worked for a non-union print shop, whereas the union was attempting every dirty trick in the book to get the employees to come over to their "side". Oh, let me reiterate, it was the union "leaders" who were attempting such tactics. Gee, I wonder why?

I have been part of a union and I don't get what you are saying about innovation. I understand some skate by and do the minimum required to not get fired. But most union members I know are eligible for promotions, step increases and level increases based on merit. If you are good and contributing, you will move up faster than others.

It was different for you?

 

[ABM]

It was different for you?

It was. Much of it (raises and/or promotions) was based upon tenure....as opposed to merit.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It was. Much of it (raises and/or promotions) was based upon tenure....as opposed to merit.

Huh . . . and you left that at your age?

 

[ABM]

http://cog.kent.edu/lib/Wheatcroft5.htm

 

[BrianFromWA]

As a condition of employment I had to join SPEEA. After 4 1/2 years of outstanding efficiency reports (and one promotion) I was told that I couldn't be promoted further because I wasn't 12 years out of college. Meanwhile, I'm giving presentations at national conferences and was the company's Subject Matter Expert in my field and had written the Best Practice. Then, when the union was told by management that they had to cut ~4000 jobs because the Tanker project hadn't been funded yet, the union said that everyone with <5 years had to go first. My management (at the VP-level) asked for an appeal on mine, and was told that layoffs were the purview of the union.
Additionally, we did get flyers and brochures telling us who the preferred voting candidates were, but no bios on the opponents.

Color me unimpressed with my union experience. It sounds like your union could be better, Mick, but it's by no means universal.

 

[ABM]

I found this to be a rather enlightening article on the subject:

http://www.dollarsandsense.org/archives/2006/0906bell.html

 

[ABM]

Huh . . . and you left that at your age?

I was promoted and moved to Atlanta. Our company was eventually bought out and I was let go...along without 200 others. Hence, I'm back "home".

 

[ABM]

https://prospect.org/article/vice-presidential-face-gif-ified

 

[MickZagger]

Thought this was a good post on a work related message board I go to every once in awhile:

Obama's not my favorite (community organizer, wtf?), but he's got my vote, because I just really REALLY don't like Romney.

I live in MA and I went through 4 years of Romney as Governor.

He likes to say he didn't raise taxes in MA...literally true but a white lie nonetheless: he raised soooo many fees for so many things...basically the cost of being a citizen (licensing fees for professionals, registration and license fees for drivers, fees for lead poisoning tests (?), on and on and on).

He was basically running for President the whole time...this guy wants to be President so bad he's wetting himself.

He's a chameleon in terms of what he'll say in order to get votes in this current election.

What amuses me is all the 'right'-leaning members on this forum are rallying behind Romney, reiterating his talking points, when in fact Romney isn't ideological at all and is in reality more of a moderate...he moved MAD right to win the nomination, and now he's moving back to the center to try and win the election.

The truth is, if Romney gets elected, he'll be much like the Governor he was in MA. He's running a con-game on the Republican base about where his fervor lies. In fact, he's Pro-Choice, could care less about guns one way or another, likely won't repeal the Affordable Care Act, on and on and on.

He's selling the voters a bill of goods he has no ability to satisfy (sounds a lot like 'Hope and Change' to me).

Romney will say whatever it takes to whichever audience he's addressing if he thinks it will gain him votes, even if it means contradicting himself repeatedly...he's choosing to believe that most people go for style over substance, and that it's a shell-game that he can win if he just mollifies each and every constituency group, even if he says a different thing on Wednesday than he did on Tuesday.

I'm not that into Obama. I'm not sure he's quite qualified for the job. Obama's not a Reagan or a Clinton, he's just...Obama. If this is even possible, I think he's just too smart for the job. I think he's too calculating. There's absolutely no John Wayne in Obama, and I think every President needs to embrace a little John Wayne (p.s. how many of you know that JW's real name was Marion Mitchell Morrison?)

Point being: I REALLY DON'T LIKE MITT ROMNEY, so I'll vote for Obama.

 

[BrianFromWA]

to the last point in the quote, I'll bet you a dollar that Maris and Denny did.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

I've been in 3 unions as well. It was a very disappointing experience.

 

[MickZagger]

I've been in 3 unions as well. It was a very disappointing experience.

I've been in one. It's been really fulfilling.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Well I'm with you Mick, I was in one for 10 years and I found it to be a good and fair experience

And for all the bad experiences with a union, there are also many bad experiences for employees who aren't union. Employee without an employee contract (most) have very little rights.

 

[maxiep]

Leaving troops in Afghanistan, Medicare, Ryan's claim to cut taxes by 20% without cutting revenue and specifying the deductions....

CBS poll had Biden winning in a landslide: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162...akes-debate-over-ryan-uncommitted-voters-say/

Afghanistan: Ryan's argument was that we shouldn't have given a date certain as to when we leave as the Taliban just wait us out. Ryan's argument was that one Afghani soldier doesn't equal one US soldier. Ryan's argument was that we shouldn't have soldiers leaving during the fighting season. And Biden's position was more substantive? Really?

Medicare: Ryan presented a plan to save Medicare for people under 55. The math is inevitable. If we continue the program as it is, it will die. He pointed out that Obamacare double counted $716B and even explained it. Biden still didn't understand. Ryan explained how he wasn't presenting a voucher plan, rather simply offering people a choice, government or private health insurance. The Obama/Biden plan is to eliminate Medicare Advantage, wrap parts of Medicare into Obamacare and not tell the American people that everyone's health care costs are going up. Ryan provided numbers and actual projections while Biden provided unicorns, lollypops and rainbows. He just hopes it works out the way he presented. Yet in your mind Biden was superior on substance? The only superior substance Biden had was pharmaceutical.

Taxes: Ryan used real numbers and discussed two times it had been done before, once in 1986 when Biden was a Senator. Shouldn't he have remembered? The Romney/Ryan position is that you cut $1.2B in taxes and then work with the Congress to find $1.1B in closing loopholes. In other words, the Romney/Ryan position is to work with Congress rather than dictating from on high. The Obama/Biden strategy is to continue presenting budgets that don't even get a single Democratic vote while having Harry Reid pocket the budgets passed in the House, basically working on a baseline from 2008. And Biden had superior substance? He doesn't even understand history.

---CNN: Forty-eight percent of those surveyed said Ryan fared better in the vice-presidential debate, compared with 44 percent for Biden, according to results aired on CNN after the event concluded. The results were within the survey’s five-percentage- point margin of error.

---NBC: Ryan was declared the winner over Biden by 63 percent to 31 percent in a poll of 534 uncommitted voters conducted by NBC News after the debate. Fifty-six percent thought Biden would be an effective president if necessary, compared with Fifty-four percent for Ryan, according to the CBS poll.

---CNBC: According to a tweet from CNBC's verified Twitter account, an after-debate poll shows Ryan crushing Biden 56 - 36% [POLL RESULTS] Who do you think won the VP Debate? Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8

---Danville Advocate Messenger: Post Debate Polls: 56 Percent Say Paul Ryan Won Vice Presidential Debate, 41% Biden

 

[maxiep]

A good read for the out of touch righties who loathe the backbone:

http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-unions-beneficial-to-the-economy

The logic behind paying a non-union worker $10/hr to work for a company like Caterpillar and a union worker $26/hr and how that benefits the economy is hard to understand? Instead of lining the pockets of the 1% CEO's it strengthens the middle class.

Or the company could keep that extra money, invest it and create more jobs. The more people employed, the more competition there is for labor, and the more the wages rise. See? You don't need the externality of a union to accomplish that goal.

Unions saved this country from a revolution at the turn of the 19th/20th Century. Like the buggy whip, however, they've outlived their usefulness.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'd look a bit deeper in the polls. Even if Ryan "won" to more people, it wasn't nearly as one-sided as the dismantling Romney gave the President last week. Biden held his own in his way--maybe more people saw it this time, I don't know--but Ryan, while getting his points out relatively clearly fought a cagey veteran. As I said earlier, I think it was close enough that Biden bought Obama some time to heal a bit and come out strong in Pres Debate 2. If it would've been as one-sided as the first debate, I imagine the polls would be a lot different today.

 

[MickZagger]

Or the company could keep that extra money, invest it and create more jobs. The more people employed, the more competition there is for labor, and the more the wages rise. See? You don't need the externality of a union to accomplish that goal.

Unions saved this country from a revolution at the turn of the 19th/20th Century. Like the buggy whip, however, they've outlived their usefulness.

No wonder you support Romney. You're out of touch with the middle class, the proverbial straw that stirs the drink in regards to the economy.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Forgive me if I've missed it earlier in the thread, Mick, but what's your def of "middle-class"? YOu've brought it up a number of times, but not necessarily where I would've used it.