The Big Bang and Cosmic Inflation

[Further]

You cannot logically conclude that there was something before there was anything.

There wasn't anything. There wasn't time. There wasn't space. There wasn't atoms. There wasn't anything at all. And SURELY there was no omnipotent being.

There wasn't time.

correct

There wasn't space.

correct

There wasn't atoms.

correct

There wasn't anything at all

to be fair, we don't know this to be correct. We just know that spacetime had a beginning, or at least our current version of spacetime had a beginning. We do not know if there aren't other universes with their own scales, nor do we know if anything precipitated the big bang.

 

[MadeFromDust]

So basically from I'm understanding is you guys believe everything literally came from nothing. I have faith, but not that much faith.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

You are making a faith based claim, so do be careful. Also saying there was no omnipotent being is a positive assertion that you cannot prove. It's sounding more and more like you just don't want God to exist and will do anything to remove Him from the picture, even if it means shooting yourself in the foot and throwing all logic under the bus.

All I'm trying to show is that God is the most logical explanation for causation. From nothing, nothing comes. Eternal nothingness begets eternal nothingness. There is no model or evidence in existence to disprove this.

I agree.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Also to be fair, belief in God is so much more than an intellectual journey. It takes a heart change and a denying and humbling of ones self. You can come up with the best argument in the world for God and it won't save someone or make them believe, because just as there is a will to believe, there is a will to disbelieve. We are in sin and rebellion against God, enemies to Him by our very nature.

 

[Denny Crane]

correct
correct
correct
to be fair, we don't know this to be correct. We just know that spacetime had a beginning, or at least our current version of spacetime had a beginning. We do not know if there aren't other universes with their own scales, nor do we know if anything precipitated the big bang.

To be fair, there isn't any real evidence of other universes or what precipitated the Big Bang.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

So basically from I'm understanding is you guys believe everything literally came from nothing. I have faith, but not that much faith.

One question I have always wrestled with is this...

At some point in "time" there had to be nothing. There had to be a first star, a first planet, a first piece of cosmic dust... What was there before all that? How did God come into being? I mean, some way or some how even He had to not exist.

 

[Denny Crane]

To be fair, there isn't any real evidence of other universes or what precipitated the Big Bang.

Or that there needed to be any causation.

The need for a "cause" is an intellectual fallacy.

 

[Further]

To be fair, there isn't any real evidence of other universes or what precipitated the Big Bang.

correct again. You were just being very logical in your analysis but started to tiptoe near drawing a conclusion where we have no information from which to draw a conclusion.

 

[MadeFromDust]

One question I have always wrestled with is this...

At some point in "time" there had to be nothing. There had to be a first star, a first planet, a first piece of cosmic dust... What was there before all that? How did God come into being? I mean, some way or some how even He had to not exist.

Something must have always existed is where my logic leads me to. I can't conceive eternal nothingness and then *POOF*, everything. God is the uncaused first cause.

 

[Denny Crane]

One question I have always wrestled with is this...

At some point in "time" there had to be nothing. There had to be a first star, a first planet, a first piece of cosmic dust... What was there before all that? How did God come into being? I mean, some way or some how even He had to not exist.

The first stars appeared roughly 100M years after the Big Bang. Before that there was a lot of "dust" (atoms) and energy and gravity.

 

[Denny Crane]

Something must have always existed is where my logic leads me to. I can't conceive eternal nothingness and then *POOF*, everything. God is the uncaused first cause.

The basketball game started precisely at 7:30 PM. Before that, there was no basketball game in existence. The game clock wasn't at 00:00, it wasn't even turned on.

Your logic fails you.

 

[Further]

Also to be fair, belief in God is so much more than an intellectual journey. It takes a heart change and a denying and humbling of ones self. You can come up with the best argument in the world for God and it won't save someone or make them believe, because just as there is a will to believe, there is a will to disbelieve. We are in sin and rebellion against God, enemies to Him by our very nature.

If you don't think it's humbling to believe scientifically, you are wrong.

As far as your original point, you have not given one reason why god is the most logical conclusion of something coming from nothing (I am not stipulating we came from nothing, just that all we know and react with had a beginning point.) If no evidence exists of a god, there is nothing to make it more logical than nothing existed first.

 

[Further]

Something must have always existed is where my logic leads me to. I can't conceive eternal nothingness and then *POOF*, everything. God is the uncaused first cause.

By the way, although many atheists disagree with me, I am perfectly happy with people believing in god in this regard. We have no evidence you are wrong, even though you have no evidence you are right. I would personally rather avoid making silly conclusions based on zero evidence, but at least what you are proposing does not refute what is known in science so I am perfectly fine with it.

 

[MadeFromDust]

If you don't think it's humbling to believe scientifically, you are wrong.

As far as your original point, you have not given one reason why god is the most logical conclusion of something coming from nothing (I am not stipulating we came from nothing, just that all we know and react with had a beginning point.) If no evidence exists of a god, there is nothing to make it more logical than nothing existed first.

I'm speaking of humbling in terms of humbling yourself before God and admitting you don't know it all and are depraved without Him. This book called the Bible teaches about this. Also, causation is not the reason I believe in God. It's not even at the top of the list of my reasons. I'm just reasoning through some friendly dialogue.

 

[MadeFromDust]

The basketball game started precisely at 7:30 PM. Before that, there was no basketball game in existence. The game clock wasn't at 00:00, it wasn't even turned on.

Your logic fails you.

That analogy is pretty dumb. Did the basketball, stadium, clocks etc. exist before the game started?

 

[MadeFromDust]

Never got an answer to this: How can an impersonal eternal nothingness (no beginning or end) create a universe that beings to exist at a finite point in time without there being a personal transcendent force beyond it that brings it into existence? Eternal nothingness does not make decisions. It would stay static and never change.

Why didn't the Big Bang happen 13.9 billion years ago rather than 13.7?

 

[MadeFromDust]

By the way, although many atheists disagree with me, I am perfectly happy with people believing in god in this regard. We have no evidence you are wrong, even though you have no evidence you are right. I would personally rather avoid making silly conclusions based on zero evidence, but at least what you are proposing does not refute what is known in science so I am perfectly fine with it.

I respect that answer and your right to disagree. It's a heck of a lot better than there is no God because there is no God.

 

[Further]

I'm speaking of humbling in terms of humbling yourself before God and admitting you don't know it all and are depraved without Him. This book called the Bible teaches about this. Also, causation is not the reason I believe in God. It's not even at the top of the list of my reasons. I'm just reasoning through some friendly dialogue.

To think scientifically is realize how minuscule we are in the scheme of things. It is to know that we know just a tiny smidgen of what there is to know, and that if we toil away, study, experiment, read, analyze we may just learn one more tiny piece of gigantically complex puzzle. To know what we actually know, is also to know how little we know.

I don't know if you have been watching the most recent version of COSMOS on fox with Neil Degrasse Tyson, if you haven't, I highly recommend it, it's only two episodes in (every Sunday night and it's on OnDemand) but in I think the first episode, they show the timeline of the universe as a calendar year, big bang Jan 1 for example. It's humbling as they go through the timeline, and they get to all recorded history and that encompasses the final 3 seconds of that year long calendar. Whereas in many religions, people are the focus, God did this for the people, God made decisions for people, God influences for the people and so on, it makes people central and quite the opposite of being humble.

 

[MadeFromDust]

To think scientifically is realize how minuscule we are in the scheme of things. It is to know that we know just a tiny smidgen of what there is to know, and that if we toil away, study, experiment, read, analyze we may just learn one more tiny piece of gigantically complex puzzle. To know what we actually know, is also to know how little we know.

Replace the word "scientifically" with "God" and you have essentially the same thing. When you look at this life and the amount of time we have here, we won't solve anything. And I believe it's all in vain anyway because God's ways are higher than our ways. We don't know how half the phenoma works here on earth yet we expect to solve the universe, most of which we can't even see? Come on now. I believe in a Creator who has all the answers and I am willing to admit I don't know it all, but I do have faith in the one who does.

I don't know if you have been watching the most recent version of COSMOS on fox with Neil Degrasse Tyson, if you haven't, I highly recommend it, it's only two episodes in (every Sunday night and it's on OnDemand) but in I think the first episode, they show the timeline of the universe as a calendar year, big bang Jan 1 for example. It's humbling as they go through the timeline, and they get to all recorded history and that encompasses the final 3 seconds of that year long calendar.

I've been hearing a lot about that. I'll have to check it out even though (again) it begins with completely different philosophical presuppositions than I have (No God, only nature, material, impersonal forces etc.)

God did this for the people, God made decisions for people, God influences for the people and so on, it makes people central and quite the opposite of being humble.

The Bible states multiple times that everything that was created was created for God's own glory and purpose. That may be true in other religions, but not in Christianity.

 

[Further]

Never got an answer to this: How can an impersonal eternal nothingness (no beginning or end) create a universe that beings to exist at a finite point in time without there being a personal transcendent force beyond it that brings it into existence? Eternal nothingness does not make decisions. It would stay static and never change.

Why didn't the Big Bang happen 13.9 billion years ago rather than 13.7?

It doesn't. There is no time until a tiny tiny moment after the big bang. So there is no before or after. Beyond the scope of the universe MAY be an always, for example. Or some other construct that does not include time. Time is not just thing A happens before thing B, before thing C, it's an actual thing, woven into the fabric of our universe. Take away those threads and there are no parameters by which time could exist. Something may or may not have caused the big bang (we have no idea, that is well beyond the scope of what can be known right now) But that cause most likely is not understandable because it would not require anything from matter or time and may not even initiate or end, but just be. This is an unknown that I am perfectly happy to leave open. It is unknowable, at least for now.

 

[MadeFromDust]

It doesn't. There is no time until a tiny tiny moment after the big bang. So there is no before or after. Beyond the scope of the universe MAY be an always, for example. Or some other construct that does not include time. Time is not just thing A happens before thing B, before thing C, it's an actual thing, woven into the fabric of our universe. Take away those threads and there are no parameters by which time could exist. Something may or may not have caused the big bang (we have no idea, that is well beyond the scope of what can be known right now) But that cause most likely is not understandable because it would not require anything from matter or time and may not even initiate or end, but just be. This is an unknown that I am perfectly happy to leave open. It is unknowable, at least for now.

OK I have a question, do you believe in the "eternal" in any sense. As in something always existing.

 

[Further]

The Bible states multiple times that everything that was created was created for God's own glory and purpose. That may be true in other religions, but not in Christianity.

You are right on this, I stand corrected.

But it does lay the world, the resources, as the dominion of the people if I remember correctly, I don't recall the wording,

 

[MadeFromDust]

You are right on this, I stand corrected.

But it does lay the world, the resources, as the dominion of the people if I remember correctly, I don't recall the wording,

Yes, the Bible teaches that man was given dominion over the earth and man chose to sin, thus the many problems we see in the world today. Also it says that sin effects the world itself, which brings about death and decay. There is a verse where it says the creation groans for its redemption. Death, decay, disease, disorder were not in the initial design.

 

[Further]

OK I have a question, do you believe in the "eternal" in any sense. As in something always existing.

Well I use the word eternal, but in the context of within our universe or metaphorically. Do I actually believe there is something more than our universe (it's hard to use our language here, lol) I don't know, I think it's very possible, just as there are millions of atoms in a molecule, millions of molecules in a cell, millions of cells in the body, and so on and so on, I think most likely our universe is but a fraction of more, but that is just pure guess and I wouldn't bet a nickle on it. There is no way to probe beyond the universe, hopefully some day, but doubtful.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Well I use the word eternal, but in the context of within our universe or metaphorically. Do I actually believe there is something more than our universe (it's hard to use our language here, lol) I don't know, I think it's very possible, just as there are millions of atoms in a molecule, millions of molecules in a cell, millions of cells in the body, and so on and so on, I think most likely our universe is but a fraction of more, but that is just pure guess and I wouldn't bet a nickle on it. There is no way to probe beyond the universe, hopefully some day, but doubtful.

Thanks for the response. I do believe something has always existed, and since the universe hasn't always existed then I obviously believe something exists beyond it and transcends it and all its properties as I've stated numerous times. The universe is made up of matter, time and space. Something that transcends matter/time/space would be immaterial, eternal, and omnipresent, which are the exact properties of God. Just something to think about.

 

[Further]

Something that transcends matter/time/space would be immaterial, eternal, and omnipresent

I don't see this. Even if there is a beyond, which I don't have a strong belief about, We have zero ability to ascribe characteristics to something that exists outside our world of physics. We simply can't use our logic to understand it because our logic is based on our physical world, such as the existence of time or matter.

 

[MadeFromDust]

I don't see this. Even if there is a beyond, which I don't have a strong belief about, We have zero ability to ascribe characteristics to something that exists outside our world of physics. We simply can't use our logic to understand it because our logic is based on our physical world, such as the existence of time or matter.

Well I agree to extent, because I believe God is incomprehensible to man, as you would expect Him to be. The trinity itself is a testament to that. But using terms like that are about as close as we can get to explaining and comprehending the unexplainable and incomprehensible IMO.

 

[Denny Crane]

That analogy is pretty dumb. Did the basketball, stadium, clocks etc. exist before the game started?

The game is related to time. The game clock is time as we know it in the analogy. There is no other clock in reality.

 

[MadeFromDust]

The game is related to time. The game clock is time as we know it in the analogy. There is no other clock in reality.

So you are agreeing that the parts existed before the game began? Because that contradicts what you said earlier in regards to the universe. Also, intelligence created the game.

 

[Denny Crane]

So you are agreeing that the parts existed before the game began? Because that contradicts what you said earlier in regards to the universe. Also, intelligence created the game.

I get it that you don't grok the analogy. It's maybe a poor choice in my part to expect you to.

There was no time before time existed. The universe's game clock started with the big bang. There is no other clock but the universe's game clock.